How much should be spent on Irish?

Doc Ruby

dlofnep wrote: »

Stop spending money on stupid things, and start investing more into Gaelscoileanna

There's a big queue for those as well, just try enrolling a child into one.

LordSutch wrote: »

That's more like it.

Hrm. So you're happy to admit that there was a lengthy and murderous effort to destroy the Irish language, and this is a wrong which must be righted, an issue which admittedly the Irish government has made a fist of?

dlofnep

Doc Ruby wrote: »

There's a big queue for those as well, just try enrolling a child into one.

I know there is, that's why I said to invest more into them.

LordSutch

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Hrm. So you're happy to admit that there was a lengthy and murderous effort to destroy the Irish language, and this is a wrong which must be righted, an issue which admittedly the Irish government has made a fist of?

Hmm no, when I said 'That's more like it' I was refering to the fact that you actually made a valid contribution to the thread without throwing vacuous muck at me. I respect your opinion on this thread, and if you look again at my post #50 you will see that its quite a moderate opinion compared to some. Suggest you redirect your venom elsewhere on this topic, I am not 'anti' the Irish language!

Doc Ruby

LordSutch wrote: »

Hmm no, when I said 'That's more like it' I was refering to the fact that you actually made a valid contribution to the thread without throwing vacuous muck at me. I respect your opinion on this thread, and if you look again at my post #50 you will see that its quite a moderate opinion compared to some. Suggest you redirect your venom elsewhere on this topic, I am not 'anti' the Irish language!

The one, single, and only question I asked was whether or not you recognised the concerted and extended effort by English authorities to destroy the Irish language. Do you refuse to recognise this?

The King of Moo

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is the point I was going to make. With the recent job announcements from Paypal and Mastercard, we are hearing how important foreign languages are becoming to getting these new jobs. This usually promts people to make comments about time wasted in school learning Irish when they could be learning another language which could get them a job. The reality is, there is no way of knowing which language will get a person a job in 15 or 20 years time. The emerging economic powerhouses now are China, India and Brazil but if you suggested 15 years ago that a child should one of the languages spoken in these countries you would have been laughed out the door. Introducing an entirely new curriculum and training enough teachers to teach these languages at primary level now is a waste of time because things may have changed dramatically by the time the first children under the new curriculum come out of school. The best option is teach a second language which will give children linguistic skills which will make it easier for them to learn more languages in the future.

Latin, despite being a truly dead language, was taught for years because it improved a persons ability to learn other languages. Short of bringing back Latin, Irish is a great language for children here to get exposure to and will make it easier to learn another language in the future (eg. Paypal announce they are hiring people with a certain language in a few months time).

And thats before we get into the cultural benefits of preserving a language that has been spoken on this island for more than a thousand years.

I think that's one of the best reasons for teaching it to kids.
We start learning French or German in first year of secondary school without ever having properly learned English or Irish at a young age when it's easier for a language to sink in. So even though some people can have a knack for languages and come out of school with a decent smattering of French or German, it's an uphill struggle to start properly learning a language for the first time as a teenager.

And I think Irish should be the second language we learn in primary school as we have plenty of extra-curricular resources as Gaeilge in this country already.

Lots of countries on the continent still teach Latin as it's often used in legal language, and it makes it easier to learn other languages, especially those based on Latin.

LordSutch

Doc Ruby wrote: »

The one, single, and only question I asked was whether or not you recognised the concerted and extended effort by English authorities to destroy the Irish language. Do you refuse to recognise this?

Now now, you are trying to steer this thread off course, but I refuse to be drawn into a war of words with you over a history lesson. This is 2012 and the OP asks "How much should be spent on Irish"? > I said Leave it at current levels, and I gave my full opinion in post#50.

Doc Ruby

LordSutch wrote: »

Now now, you are trying to steer this thread off course, but I refuse to be drawn into a war of words with you over a history lesson. This is 2012 and the OP asks "How much should be spent on Irish"? > I said Leave it at current levels, and I gave my full opinion in post#50.

What a pity. For a moment there I thought there was some hope for you.

LordSutch

Doc Ruby wrote: »

What a pity. For a moment there I thought there was some hope for you.

Can't you go after sombody who actually hates Irish, and wants it abolished?

Doc Ruby

LordSutch wrote: »

Can't you go after sombody who actually hates Irish, and wants it abolished?

The door is always open sutch, whenever you feel like stepping out of the 19th century.

dlofnep

No need to get personal on the thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The failure of the Irish language is for a number of reasons - but in a modern context, the state has had decades to do something and they have failed.

southsiderosie

The King of Moo wrote: »

As opposed to natural, organic languages which grow from the ground?

I think we should pay for it to be taught properly in primary school, compulsory for all except those with legitimate grounds for exemptions. All children can and should learn a second language for a variety of reasons, and Irish has a strong presence in this country (TV and radio stations, street signs) so it's a logical choice.
It should then be optional in secondary school.
I stress that it should be taught properly: with children giving a good grounding in the basics, long before doing proverbs and literature and such, and it should be made fun and interesting.

I'm not sure if that would cost more or less than however much is spent on the language now.

I think the whole problem with Irish in Ireland is that the conversation is always about should it be taught. If people really want to see a revival (or for that matter survival) of the language, it needs to be the medium of instruction, not a subject.

Ireland could adopt a model similar to the Basques: give parents the option to enroll in school with a very specific distribution of languages: primarily Basque, Basque/Spanish mix, primarily Spanish, and now a Spanish/English mix.

It would seem that for the future survival of the language, resources would be better spend ensuring that 20-30% of the population is truly fluent and literate, rather than 90% of the population being able to say a few words here and there.

Finally, as a foreigner, I used to find all of the hostility to the Irish language in Ireland to be quite odd, but after living in Ireland for a while, I have to say, I don't think the pro-Irish lobby does themselves any favors.

The King of Moo

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the whole problem with Irish in Ireland is that the conversation is always about should it be taught. If people really want to see a revival (or for that matter survival) of the language, it needs to be the medium of instruction, not a subject.

Ireland could adopt a model similar to the Basques: give parents the option to enroll in school with a very specific distribution of languages: primarily Basque, Basque/Spanish mix, primarily Spanish, and now a Spanish/English mix.

It would seem that for the future survival of the language, resources would be better spend ensuring that 20-30% of the population is truly fluent and literate, rather than 90% of the population being able to say a few words here and there.

Finally, as a foreigner, I used to find all of the hostility to the Irish language in Ireland to be quite odd, but after living in Ireland for a while, I have to say, I don't think the pro-Irish lobby does themselves any favors.

I'd definitely prefer a smaller percentage of people being taught the language properly than have everyone have the standard of Irish we learn in school.

I got an A in Honours in the Leaving Cert but I wouldn't call myself fluent.

The problem is that we try to learn Irish without knowing the basic grammatical principles of English (Irish teachers included). So we're taught about tenses and conditional moods in Irish without knowing what the equivalent is in English.

We also study literature far too early, and when I was in school at least, some teachers expected us to already have some Irish just because, well, we're Irish and should, but I'd say that type of attitude's not so common.

There's also so much more that could be done to make the language more fun and interesting to learn.

I don't mean to be too critical of Irish teachers: it's hard to learn and teach a second language in a monolingual country without strong practical incentives to learn a second language. It makes it harder to step back from languages and see how they work when you only speak one and never properly learn its grammar.

I think the Department of Education should sent some people to observe English classes in Germany and Austria to see how to teach a second language properly.

I do get a bit annoyed when I hear people complain about Irish being ugly (no language is ugly in my opinion) or uncool or difficult, but then I remind myself that we do very little in schools to make the language interesting or teach it properly.

_Gawd_

Nothing.

If people have an appetite, it will grow and prosper. If not, it'll die off and we'll learn modern languages usable in the modern world. But then you get the argument, "but then it'll die off"....well no **** sherlock. Have you ever contemplated the fact that nobody actually wants to learn it and would prefer putting their time and energy into say....mathematics...we are slipping down the world ranks here after all.

deise go deo

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the whole problem with Irish in Ireland is that the conversation is always about should it be taught. If people really want to see a revival (or for that matter survival) of the language, it needs to be the medium of instruction, not a subject.

It would seem that for the future survival of the language, resources would be better spend ensuring that 20-30% of the population is truly fluent and literate, rather than 90% of the population being able to say a few words here and there.

Well on the issue of Irish being the medium of Instruction, it has been suggested by several Irish Language organisations that a second subject such as PE or Art could be tought through Irish at primary level. Such a move would increase the contact time kids get with the language, without impacting on the instruction time for the rest of the curriculum, it would associate the language with enjoyable activities and it would not cost a cent to do.
Trust the government to take no notice of such suggestions though.

As for Irish Medium education, it would be feasible to focus all efforts on bringing the % of kids educated through Irish up to 20-30%, that is around the level of demand for Irish medium education identified in research carried out in 1999. To do it though upwards of 600 primary schools would have to be opened or existing schools would have to switch language. And as has been mentioned, increasing the % of Irish Language Primary Schools will only have a limited result if there is not a corresponding increase in the % of Second Level schools opperated through Irish.


The big issue for me though is outside the classroom and outside the school gate, kids need to be given the oppertunity to use the language socially outside the education system if it is to be normalised as part of daily life.

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

The failure of the Irish language is for a number of reasons - but in a modern context, the state has had decades to do something and they have failed.

+1 Then again the language has been in pretty serious decline over the last two centuries outside of small pockets where it continued, so I'd reckon even the hamfisted approach likely halted that decline. I'd further reckon for all the "it's our language" rhetoric without the state's input it would be nearly extinct or in a worse state anyway today.

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think the whole problem with Irish in Ireland is that the conversation is always about should it be taught. If people really want to see a revival (or for that matter survival) of the language, it needs to be the medium of instruction, not a subject.

Most of all it needs to be the medium of ordinary discourse and business and science, but I reckon that boat has long sailed. The best we can hope for is it's continued survival, even as a cultural affectation.

Finally, as a foreigner, I used to find all of the hostility to the Irish language in Ireland to be quite odd, but after living in Ireland for a while, I have to say, I don't think the pro-Irish lobby does themselves any favors.

Actually S I think the languages biggest problem is simple indifference. Hostility might be better in a way. There would be passion involved. Currently and for a long time for most Irish people it's more "meh, who could be arsed, though I know a cupla focal(couple of words)". Even in Irish speaking areas and outside Irish speaking schools, the kids revert to English as the general vector of simple communication. You mentioned Basque. I've heard more Basque on a weekend on the piss in Bilbao than I've heard Irish outside of the classroom in my lifetime and I've traveled the length and breadth of this country of ours. There was and is significantly more passion about the Basque language among the Basques.

That indifference IMHO comes from the simple fact that Irish has been in decline for so long. Pretty much 200 years decline and longer in urban areas. It hasn't been a part of the larger Irish culture for a very long time. So there is the sense of artificiality to it all. Then if you consider the feeling of imposition by cultural revivalists on the rest of the population and you end up with hostility to the language.

I would also say there is still an unspoken(publicly anyway) feeling out there that Irish is for backward boggers. Which is a real pity given the history of the language. Its not just perfidious Albion's fault either. The fact is it did contract to be the language of the rural and uneducated poor for a very long time and left it's "higher" cultural richness behind. Other languages and dialects suffered this too. Cornish died out because of it, Welsh nearly did and neither came close to the rich high cultural history of the Irish language. And not just in airy fairy misty eyed poetry either(though they were bloody good at that stuff). The wider world forgets that for a couple of centuries in the early medieval a goodly chunk of the greatest minds in Europe since the fall of the western empire thought and spoke and wrote in the language, translating those thoughts into Latin for the slow kids in the rest of Europe. :D

Ultimately for all our talk the vast majority of the Irish population just can't be arsed speaking it. It's like the language version of theatre. Only a minority are theatre goers, but if you asked the majority who never go would they like to see the theatre die out, they would likely say no, that this would be a bad thing. Won't put bums on seats mind you.

Plus if you add in the west Brit/hated Engerlish/dey took ur Irish to the equation heels really start to dig in.

Dostoevsky

lividduck wrote: »

Actually more intelligent arguement... relavent

Argument... relevant.

Cú Giobach

lividduck wrote: »

Same OP same old whinge, demanding that someone else pay for their hobby, in this case, a now largely dead makkey uppy lingo!
Your money, spend it as you like, my tax on a dead language...eh that would be a NO

Go on then, explain this often mentioned "makkey uppy lingo" comment of yours. You keep saying it but when questioned on it you ignore the questions and yet bring it up again and again, surely you can stand by, and defend your comments, or can you?

NinjaK

Sad state of affairs the majority say nothing. It is the language of the Irish, not the invader.

forfuxsake

10% of the budget surplus

pickarooney

deise go deo wrote: »

Honnest question Wibbs, do you know the difference between playing the Ball and playing the man? You're a mod so I should hope so, I have had enough of you following me around threads trying to drag them off topic and personalise them.

Playing the man is surely a legitimate tactic in gaelic football?

Wibbs

NinjaK wrote: »

It is the language of the Irish, not the invader.

OK but where is the cut off point in your head for "invader"? Since the first hunter gatherers and farmers arrived we've had wave after wave of immigrants and their cultures to this land and indeed exported them back to the wider world. We've had Welsh, Scots, "Celts", Scandinavians(and then Scandinavian French), English, even smatterings of French, Jews and Dutch. We're not the genetically homogenous and isolated population some of us seem to think. Indeed what I like about those old Irish speaking scholars is that they were anything but isolationist in their thinking. They sought to include us and our culture into the wider world, not look inward or pickle the culture in aspic. It seems the majority of Irish people today are much the same.

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

+1 Then again the language has been in pretty serious decline over the last two centuries outside of small pockets where it continued, so I'd reckon even the hamfisted approach likely halted that decline. I'd further reckon for all the "it's our language" rhetoric without the state's input it would be nearly extinct or in a worse state anyway today.

It was in marginal decline - but there is sufficient evidence to state that it was the majority language up until the first quarter of the 1800's. The biggest impact out of anything to hit the Irish language was the famine unfortunately It disproportionally hit Irish speaking regions. I'd estimate that well over 2 million Irish language speakers were lost, from death to emigration.

If the famine doesn't hit Ireland - today's Ireland as we know it is a much different place.

I think the biggest failure of the Free State was going balls in with the language, without any foresight. There was no practical plan to restore Irish, just wishful thinking. I think had they have started to create Gaelscoileanna from the get go, the Irish language would have been so 'taboo' in society.

Cú Giobach

Wibbs wrote: »

They sought to include us and our culture into the wider world, not look inward or pickle the culture in aspic. It seems the majority of Irish people today are much the same.

Exactly, include it in the wider world, not ignore it or let it be subsumed out of existence by the wider world. I think you will find that is exactly what people want with the Irish language.

opinion guy

6 pages in and nobody has actually put a figure on how much is currently spent on Irish.
Seems like the natural starting point before we decide to spend more or less I would have thought ? (and no I don't know the figure)

My memory of Irish was being forced to learn off by heart an A4 page of prose every night to write out the next day.

FUCK. THAT.

Whatever about the cash side of it - the way it is thought is ridiculous - althou it may be different now.

MetalDog

Voted "more", just to annoy insecure postcolonial chip on the shoulder Sunday Indo reading ****. :P

With the digital TV changeover just around the corner, it will provide a very low cost method of increasing the "visibility" of Irish just by having a TG5 or similar channel that could concentrate on educational programming for Irish learners it could also be allowed to rebroadcast the TG4 programmes without subtitles. The costs of operating such a channel will be quite minimal due to the fact that all it is doing is using "spare" capacity in the system.

Traonach

Wibbs wrote: »

Irony.

You admit you're not fluent, so what percentage of less or more "Irish: are you? Do native speakers consider you lesser? By your "logic" it seems they do. Give me an ever loving break. If we're debating this BS it's up there with baldy men fighting over a comb, as Gaelige no as Bearla.

It's the effort that counts. You could be totally fluent and never speak it or you could be not fluent but make the effort and speak it. The latter is more useful.

Bullseye1

NinjaK wrote: »

Sad state of affairs the majority say nothing. It is the language of the Irish, not the invader.

I don't need the Irish language to feel Irish. I am Irish. If people want to learn the language they will. It's about it's usefulness in today's sociey. The recent job announcements bear this out. Most of the people they will employ are multi-lingual. This is what we should be pushing. Maybe from having a multilingual society it will encourage the people to learn the Irish language.

deise go deo

Deleted User wrote: »

With the digital TV changeover just around the corner, it will provide a very low cost method of increasing the "visibility" of Irish just by having a TG5 or similar channel that could concentrate on educational programming for Irish learners it could also be allowed to rebroadcast the TG4 programmes without subtitles. The costs of operating such a channel will be quite minimal due to the fact that all it is doing is using "spare" capacity in the system.

As far as I know, Cúla 4 is going to become its own channel.

6 pages in and nobody has actually put a figure on how much is currently spent on Irish.
Seems like the natural starting point before we decide to spend more or less I would have thought ? (and no I don't know the figure)

My memory of Irish was being forced to learn off by heart an A4 page of prose every night to write out the next day.

FUCK. THAT.

Whatever about the cash side of it - the way it is thought is ridiculous - althou it may be different now.

The problem with providing a total cost is that very often, money spent on Irish is not distinguished from other costs in the total.

There is also the question of how you would add it up in the first place, take a Gaelscoil for example, do you take the entire cost of the school as being part of the cost of Irish, or just any cost above the average for a primary school that is related to Irish being the medium of instruction?


For arguments sake though, 750 Million would be a ball park figure if you combine all money spent on promoting Irish, providing services/translations in Irish and teaching Irish in schools.

Wibbs

dlofnep wrote: »

It was in marginal decline - but there is sufficient evidence to state that it was the majority language up until the first quarter of the 1800's. The biggest impact out of anything to hit the Irish language was the famine unfortunately It disproportionally hit Irish speaking regions. I'd estimate that well over 2 million Irish language speakers were lost, from death to emigration.

Not quite, though that notion has a lot of currency. It was already well in decline before the famine. This post by Enkidu with some background in the history of the language(and a chap always worth a read) sums up the current understanding. To extract the gist

Enkidu wrote:

Then there is a blank spot, 1700-1830, where we know very little about the language. We can reconstruct things from 1830 onward by extrapolating backward from later census data and reading personal accounts. It can be clearly seen that Irish was no longer the main language of the island and the trend amongst the population was to stop speaking it. The famine only accelerated trends already present in most of the country.

If the famine doesn't hit Ireland - today's Ireland as we know it is a much different place.

More populated certainly, but Irish speaking? I doubt it, or at least it's very much up for debate.

I think the biggest failure of the Free State was going balls in with the language, without any foresight. There was no practical plan to restore Irish, just wishful thinking. I think had they have started to create Gaelscoileanna from the get go, the Irish language would have been so 'taboo' in society.

Well they did have Gaelscoileanna from early on and not just primary. My mother was schooled through Irish all the way up to the leaving cert and this was in "Jackeen" Dublin and her experience wasn't unusual. The civil service was conducted through Irish and without it you were boned. There were a lot of pro Irish language drives from early on and yet here we are today. At least there is an upward trend with the new run of Gaelscoileanna when compared to the 70's and 80's when I'd reckon Irish was at it's lowest point in education anyway.