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How much should be spent on Irish?

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    #92
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Wibbs wrote: »
    More populated certainly, but Irish speaking? I doubt it, or at least it's very much up for debate.


    Majority Irish speaking? Probably not, but I don't think it would be going too far to say that you would have a situation more like Wales with 20% Irish spreaking instead of 3-4%


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    #93
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Not quite, though that notion has a lot of currency. It was already well in decline before the famine. This post by Enkidu with some background in the history of the language(and a chap always worth a read) sums up the current understanding. To extract the gist

    I wrote a post about it about a year or so ago, and cited official statistics to support my claims. Irish was the majority language in the early 1800's, and the lingua franca of pretty much from the north-west to the south-east. I never stated that it wasn't in decline, but any decline of it wasn't anywhere near enough to destroy the language. It was the famine, and the national schools that hurt it more than anything else.
    Wibbs wrote: »
    More populated certainly, but Irish speaking? I doubt it, or at least it's very much up for debate.

    The Irish language would be far more visible, and would be the working language of far more areas than it is today.


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    #94
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Majority Irish speaking? Probably not, but I don't think it would be going too far to say that you would have a situation more like Wales with 20% Irish spreaking instead of 3-4%
    And it wouldn't be 20% of Wales's 3 million, or today's Ireland of 4.5 million.


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    #95
    grindle
    Registered Users Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭grindle


    opinion guy wrote: »
    6 pages in and nobody has actually put a figure on how much is currently spent on Irish.
    Seems like the natural starting point before we decide to spend more or less I would have thought ? (and no I don't know the figure)
    Apparently €1 Billion, or at least, that's a figure people were arguing about last September. Teaching in the primary and secondary schools was confirmed a few years ago to cost €650m, so I'm not sure where this extra €350m is being pulled from, or if there are even that many ancillary costs to keeping the corpse of a language afloat


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    #96
    Bad Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭Bad Panda


    Confab wrote: »
    Nothing, let it die a natural death.

    I strongly disagree with this.

    I think we should look at euthanasia.


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    #97
    kupus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    I think we should pay for it to be taught properly in primary school, compulsory for all except those with legitimate grounds for exemptions. All children can and should learn a second language for a variety of reasons, and Irish has a strong presence in this country (TV and radio stations, street signs) so it's a logical choice.
    It should then be optional in secondary school.
    I stress that it should be taught properly: with children giving a good grounding in the basics, long before doing proverbs and literature and such, and it should be made fun and interesting
    +1
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Personally I believe it's important culturally, I think it's good to be able to read, comprehend and discuss works of poetry and literature in the language in wish they were written, especially if that language is the language of the native land.
    -1 I still remember Peig and her depressing hormonal imbalances
    I enjoy Irish personally, it's something i am trying to improve upon and I don't think it should be forced upon people given the predominance and place of English in the world but I don't see the harm in having kids learn it in school.
    +1
    People will say to learn it and spend your own money on it, fair enough, but pointless to take that tactic if they are removing even the smallest chance of someone coming into contact with it.
    As such, i believe there is a place where the two parties can meet with regard to budgeting for the teaching and promotion of the Irish language.


    I dont know barr the basics and the one I grew up with is Irish. Every time I meet somebody and they say to me ah speak some Irish I lip sync the Irish anthem....... and with that I die a little inside, I smile to their face but I'm sick to my stomach inside

    ME: "sine fianna fail ata fein gael na heireann"
    Their Response: thats beautiful what does it mean?
    My Response:     It means.... I see the sun, moon and stars twinkling in your eyes.........and then I change the subject RAPID.....VERY RAPID.


    Kids here from the get go have 6 Balkan languages...Serbian, Montenegrin, Bosnian, Croatian, Slovenian, Macedonian, + at school depending on region they learn German or Italian or Greek or Hungarian or Russian AND English(cos of tv/internet/music).

    So at 18 they have their primary language, they can understand their 5 brethen languages,
    + one or two of German, Italian, Greek, Hungarian or Russian
    and wait for it there's more.....
    + English


    Now it is proven that having a grounding while young in another language makes it easier to learn other different languages when older but no, in Ireland we make it more difficult and for this I blame the way the Dept of Edumacation instruct teachers how to teach Irish
    ....
    FFS make it fun to learn stay away from the grammer for a few years of primary and let the kids speak it first

    And for those who think Irish should die......its only when you move abroad that you will regret saying it, because when I was a young 'un.... I said the same thing.


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    #98
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    grindle wrote: »
    Apparently €1 Billion, or at least, that's a figure people were arguing about last September.


    That figure was suggested in 2006 by a party called the reform group, who are also working on getting Ireland back into the commonwealth.
    I would say it was exagerated then, but after all the cutbacks since then, it would be well off the mark now.


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    #99
    Chinasea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Chinasea


    Zero to be spent on Irish and relegion. Pay for it yourselves if you want it. Both are useless.

    We should be learning Chinese instead.


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    #100
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,112 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I wrote a post about it about a year or so ago, and cited official statistics to support my claims.
    Could you cite those statistics again? I'm sure language researchers would be very pleased to have them considering the dearth of stats from 1700-1830.
    Irish was the majority language in the early 1800's, and the lingua franca of pretty much from the north-west to the south-east.
    As Enkidu pointed out in that linked post(and he knows substantially more about this subject than either of us) "Then there is a blank spot, 1700-1830, where we know very little about the language. We can reconstruct things from 1830 onward by extrapolating backward from later census data and reading personal accounts. It can be clearly seen that Irish was no longer the main language of the island and the trend amongst the population was to stop speaking it. The famine only accelerated trends already present in most of the country."
    It had pretty much died out in greater Leinster before 1800, so that's a big chunk of the land and a large chunk of the overall population. It was in major decline in Ulster arising from the plantations. On the overall population front it wasn't so much a lingus franca, but one of two. IIRC was there not another Dutch based dialect in areas of the south east like Waterford?

    Actually I have an old book somewhere in the house that quotes a French(I think) traveler in the late 1700's/early 1800's that was surprised to find how many of the "common people" understood Latin of all things. I'll try and dig it up. Fascinating stuff I'd not heard of again or elsewhere.
    I never stated that it wasn't in decline, but any decline of it wasn't anywhere near enough to destroy the language. It was the famine, and the national schools that hurt it more than anything else.
    Like I say this is a constant theme among some and there's obviously no denying that deaths and emigration coming out of the famine had an effect. Ditto for the national school system and ironically more rights for the Catholic Irish. However it's too simplistic a notion(not unlike divided opinions of the famine itself) it was on the decline already and likely would have continued that way.

    Even if there had not been a famine it's likely emigration would have still been a major factor. There was barely enough employment in the country even for the much reduced rural numbers after the famine as it was and a helluva lot less employment opportunities in those areas traditionally strong in the language. Large scale emigration from those areas continued long after the famine and even into the present day. Look to places like the Blaskets at the more extreme end of that. It would be my opinion that the Irish language was doomed to decline the second it ceased to be an urban language. This meant it ceased to be urbane, literally "of the city". I reckon that goes for any language.


    The Irish language would be far more visible, and would be the working language of far more areas than it is today.
    The famine is 160 odd years ago, we haven't been under the British yoke for nearly 100 years, yet still the language declined over that time. The famine sped the process up, no doubt about that, but it was no way the only, nor the biggest factor. I'd go further and say that the lack of a countrywide and locally driven industrial revolution in this country was the bigger factor. The industrial revolution in countries brought the urban to the rural and all that comes with that.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #101
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Could you cite those statistics again?

    Blast you Wibbs, making me trapse through hundreds of posts to find it :)

    Here you go: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67155393&postcount=843


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    #102
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Traonach wrote: »
    Irish is part of our heritage and culture, it needs to be protected. Money has to be spent on it.


    Irish isn't part of "our culture" as you put it.

    If it was we'd be speaking it not protecting it


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    #103
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Irish isn't part of "our culture" as you put it.

    If it was we'd be speaking it not protecting it
    You are wasting your time, in the same way as there are "Grammer Nazis" there will always be little Irelanders with no grasp of the real history of this island who can best be described as "Culture Nazis".


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    #104
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    Chinasea wrote: »
    Zero to be spent on Irish and relegion. Pay for it yourselves if you want it. Both are useless.

    We should be learning Chinese instead.

    How can a language be useless? Its for communicating with other people. Problem here is all people think about is business and money. Its pathetic.


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    #105
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Just let people consider what's part of their identity, heritage, and culture. Don't force your opinion on them that Irish has to be part of any of those things. Just let people speak their own language and consider what's part of them, and we'd have no problems. Is someone ''less Irish'' because they don't like being forced to speak the language because it is of no benefit to them?? Seriously...


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    #106
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Sad state of affairs the majority say nothing. It is the language of the Irish, not the invader.
    I said money should go towards perhaps protecting it in some capacity. Nothing to do with the settlers.


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    #107
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    lividduck wrote: »
    You are wasting your time, in the same way as there are "Grammer Nazis" there will always be little Irelanders with no grasp of the real history of this island who can best be described as "Culture Nazis".


    I'm not the person wasting my time "protecting" a dead language.

    Perhaps thats what we should do with the Irish language. Consign it to the dustbin of history where it belongs. Ones grasp on the history of Ireland does nothing to disguise the fact that the Irish language is little more than a cultural relic that is no longer relevant to the average Irish citizen anymore. It is little more than a money pit and it's about time we cut our losses.


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    #108
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    lividduck wrote: »
    You are wasting your time, in the same way as there are "Grammer Nazis" there will always be little Irelanders with no grasp of the real history of this island who can best be described as "Culture Nazis".



    Please enlighten me, what is this 'real history' you speak of? I have quite an interest in history myself, so please don't feel like you need to spare on the details.


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    #109
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    I'm not the person wasting my time "protecting" a dead language.

    Perhaps thats what we should do with the Irish language. Consign it to the dustbin of history where it belongs. Ones grasp on the history of Ireland does nothing to disguise the fact that the Irish language is little more than a cultural relic that is no longer relevant to the average Irish citizen anymore. It is little more than a money pit and it's about time we cut our losses.
    I meant you were wasting your time arguing with the Culture Nazi's.
    Totally agree with you on the dead lingo.


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    #110
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    AngryBollix wrote: »
    Irish isn't part of "our culture" as you put it.

    If it was we'd be speaking it not protecting it
    Tell me something (anything) that you consider part of our culture and I will show you people to whom it is irrelevant.
    Irish is part of our culture, the important word here is "part".
    All the different "parts" and all the different people are what make up the mix that is Irish.
    The culture of Dublin is part of our culture but it is not part of mine, get it?


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    #111
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I said money should go towards perhaps protecting it in some capacity. Nothing to do with the settlers.

    Setters! Go read a history book! You say it as if the North was unoccupied at the time!


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    #112
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    lividduck wrote: »
    Totally agree with you on the dead lingo.
    I asked you before, how can a living language be "dead"?


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    #113
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    also talk about violation of the right to speak whatever language you wish! aka - being forced at a young age to speak Irish! Can't think of a worse way to keep a dying language alive...


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    #114
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Setters! Go read a history book! You say it as if the North was unoccupied at the time!
    You tried to blame the settlers as the reason for Irish dying out. It isn't true. Many settlers protected the Irish language.


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    #115
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    You tried to blame the settlers as the reason for Irish dying out. It isn't true. Many settlers protected the Irish language.

    The fact of matter is if the invaders never came here we would still be speaking As gaeilge.


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    #116
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    NinjaK wrote: »
    The fact of matter is if the invaders never came here we would still be speaking As gaeilge.
    What do you think should happen to protect the Irish language then?


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    #117
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Nice to see that the poll results above show the "anti" Irish side are, as usual in the minority. :D


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    #118
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    What do you think should happen to protect the Irish language then?

    Simple, teach it in schools, make all schools gealscoils


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    #119
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Simple, teach it in schools, make all schools gealscoils
    Even Protestant schools? That is unrealistic.


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    #120
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,786 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I say less, by all means spend money on those who want to be engaged with/learn the language, but all this money that's being pissed away forcing the language down the throats of people who don't care about it is ridiculous.

    The Official Languages Act is one.
    Mandatory "Irish" in school is another, not only a waste of money but also a disregard for the welfare of the student. (By wasting their time that could be better spent learning something else, and wasting school resources).

    No more stripping English language placenames from places like Dingle, Belmullet etc.

    But by all means support those who do want to use/learn the language - provided it can be done cost effectively.


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    #121
    AngryBollix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭AngryBollix


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Tell me something (anything) that you consider part of our culture and I will show you people to whom it is irrelevant.
    Irish is part of our culture, the important word here is "part".
    All the different "parts" and all the different people are what make up the mix that is Irish.
    The culture of Dublin is part of our culture but it is not part of mine, get it?


    Doesnt that diminish attempts to portray the irish language as some cultural cornerstone. It isnt. Then again how mant elements of irish culture have the stigma of having to be endured as opposed to being enjoyed.

    Not everyone likes gaelic games, irish traditional music, alcohol and other "cultural" staples. The difference is that these are not on life support and thrive without anyone being forced into them.

    That might not always have been the case but they're the better for it


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