Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

Doc Ruby

gigino wrote: »

Well said. People hate their time being wasted and money flushed down the toiled being force fed the dead old language for 14 years. Noboby wants Irish except a few extremists. Go to any bookshop or newsagent in any county in Ireland and you have a been chance of seeing someone buy a winning lotto ticket than a book, magazine or newspaper in Irish. Yet half of what the F****g government prints is in Irish, destroying half a rainforest.

And the next of the usual suspects chimes in. All we need is keith and bwatson and we may as well haul up the union jack. Its the nod squad.

Your words lack credibility due to yours and sutch's political leanings, which tend in general to hold Irish society and culture in disdain. In fact the very idea that there might be an Irish society and culture seperate from that of your beloved UK fills you with an unreasoning terror.

But of course you can't just come out and say that, it has to be disguised by haunting threads like these taking random pot shots at relatively easy targets like the language.

Given the black bloody mass murder done by similar types down the years in an effort to exterminate an entire culture I suppose we should be thankful that its come to a few posts on boards.

Not to say there aren't real problems with the way the Irish language is taught, those badly need fixing. Some of the attitudes of the some of the gaelgóirs could do with adjusting as well. But the language itself is a beautiful thing, which needs to be encouraged to grow.

gigino

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Your words lack credibility due to yours and sutch's political leanings, which tend in general to hold Irish society and culture in disdain.

I'm as Irish as you are and extremists such as you who forced me through 14 years of Irish at school, and who waste hundreds of millions of euro on the lanuage, are doing the language no favours. Next thing you'll say is that non-Irish speakers should not have the vote. It was nearly as bad as that in the past with the Irish language necessary to pass the leaving, for public service jobs, entrance to certain universities etc.

Doc Ruby

gigino wrote: »

I'm as Irish as you are

Sure you are.

endabob1

I've said it before and I'll say it again It should not be scrapped, the opposite should happen it should be encouraged and cherished as something which identifies us as a unique and separate entity within Europe.

It does need a serious overhaul though.
For one thing, Irish needs to be taught better in schools. I did it for 14 years and came away not fluent, not even close to being fluent. I know more French learned in 5 years, than I do Irish.
I know people from other countries who learn 2 or 3 languages in school and are least conversational in them.

gigino

endabob1 wrote: »

For one thing, Irish needs to be taught better in schools.

Too much time effort and money was spent trying to teach it in the past. The result is still if you go in to any bookshop or newsagent in any county in Ireland, you have a bigger chance of seeing someone buy a winning lotto ticket than a book, magazine or newspaper in Irish. Do not forget half of what the F****g government prints is in Irish, destroying half a rainforest.
The country should have more important things to be borrowing money for.
Of course there are a few people who make money out of Irish in this country, at the expense of the rest of us.

Seanchai

gigino wrote: »

Noboby [sic] wants Irish except a few extremists.

And this from the guy full of so much hatred and ugliness of mind and spirit that he described Irish as 'a dead and ugly language' a few pages back.

If you really think your views on the Irish language are representative of anybody other than the most undereducated, extremist dregs of British loyalist society, you are severely delusional. Even Keith, our bona fide loyalist, doesn't share your extreme views, as somebody pointed out earlier.

But then again you are gigino (or is it gbee?), the guy who makes a point of trolling threads spouting provocative undereducated dross based around a plebian notion that if something cannot be sold it is not worth keeping.

PS: Nice to see your sudden concern for the rainforests when paper is used to write Irish on. What an unlikely environmental activist. Going by your educational level, I can safely say that quite a number of rainforests have been destroyed printing stuff in English for people of your world outlook and profoundly benighted mentality.

gigino

Seanchai wrote: »

But then again you are gigino (or is it gbee?), .

I am not gbee but now you have pointed him / her out to me, he / she does have some interesting points eg
"In the Irish forum one will find where €300,000 was spent on some Government document to translate into Irish ad ONE, one solitary copy was purchased."
I do not know if thats true or not but I do know an awful lot of money is being borrowed for the government to translate and print things in bloody Irish. And yet if you go in to any bookshop or newsagent in any county in Ireland, you have a bigger chance of seeing someone buy a winning lotto ticket than a book, magazine or newspaper in Irish.

MysticalRain

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Some of the attitudes of the some of the gaelgóirs could do with adjusting as well.

Starting with the "West Brit" carrying on. You might not want to hear it, but it does reflect badly on the language.

Seanchai

MysticalRain wrote: »

Starting with the "West Brit" carrying on. You might not want to hear it, but it does reflect badly on the language.

Not half as badly as the undereducated rantings of the monoglot English-speaking anti-Irish language brigade on this and other threads. A more ignorant and culturally fascist group is hard to conceive of. Not for them notions of cultural diversity. Nope. 'Make Ireland more English!' is the order of the day, every day. Britain and English culture is their home, and they want to ram it down the throats of the rest of us and crush all definitions of Irishness that are not variations of Englishness. The Irish language being, naturally enough, target number 1 in this regard.

Now that's extremism, extreme intolerance and so much more.

MysticalRain

Seanchai wrote: »

Not half as badly as the undereducated rantings of the monoglot English-speaking anti-Irish language brigade on this and other threads. A more ignorant and culturally fascist group is hard to conceive of. Not for them notions of cultural diversity. Nope. 'Make Ireland more English!' is the order of the day, every day. Britain and English culture is their home, and they want to ram it down the throats of the rest of us and crush all definitions of Irishness that are not variations of Englishness. The Irish language being, naturally enough, target number 1 in this regard.

Now that's extremism, extreme intolerance and so much more.

I think ranting like that only reinforce the point that many gaelgoirs are extremists, and you are only discrediting the language even further by resorting to that sort of ridiculous hyperbole.

jumpguy

Seanchai wrote: »

I'm still waiting for the day when I will find it financially beneficial to use even a single quadratic equation, never mind the rest of the gobbledegook that passed as LC maths. Utterly useless. Sums, on the other hand, are useful but I learnt then in national school. Yet I had all that LC maths rubbish shoved down my throat. And don't get me started on how Shakespeare and the rest of that utterly pointless nonsense was rammed down my throat....

Maths and English compulsion = good.
Irish compulsion = bad.

The point is that Irish, maths and English are all compulsory all the way from Junior Infants to 6th year. As you go into second level, they both get more advanced and in-depth and you start learning crap you probably will never need. But still, maths and English undeniably have much more relevance than Irish.

mloc

I'm not sure why "taught better" is really a suggested option.

Unless you are aiming for it to become our most commonly spoken day-to-day language, which would be pretty stupid given the advantages speaking english has brought to our country, teaching it better would still be just as much a waste of time as teaching it the way it is. Possibly worse; teaching it better would require more resources and training, i.e. more wasteful resources and training.

I think Irish is a nice language, but it's more of a curiosity and relic than a practical language today. We should keep it as an option in our schools, but not as a compulsory subject. Removing Irish as a compulsory subject would be one step towards overhauling our rather poor secondary education system.

Lord TSC

I find it funny that some of the pro-compulsion brigade have to fall back on the "West Brit" arguement time and time again.

"Oh no, I'm struggling to refute their arguements as to why people should have free choice when deciding to study Irish. I know, I'll just attempt to insult them instead!"

(And I say this as someone who would be quite happy to have optional English, Irish and Maths at LC level, even as an English teacher).

44leto

Originally Posted by Seanchai
I'm still waiting for the day when I will find it financially beneficial to use even a single quadratic equation, never mind the rest of the gobbledegook that passed as LC maths. Utterly useless. Sums, on the other hand, are useful but I learnt then in national school. Yet I had all that LC maths rubbish shoved down my throat. And don't get me started on how Shakespeare and the rest of that utterly pointless nonsense was rammed down my throat....

Maths and English compulsion = good.
Irish compulsion = bad.

Maths and science thought and trained your brain to think in an abstract and analytical way a skilled that I am sure you have used, you do have at least a grasp as to how this machine functions.

English also thought you the different forms of expressing that language, your posts are proof.

For instance I remember in TE Lawrence's book The seven Pillars of wisdoms he recounted an experience, he was a talented portrait painter and he painted portraits of the different Arab tribal leaders. But when he gave them the portraits they couldn't make them out, all they seen was different colored blobs of paint on a canvass, they never learned how to see a 2D portrait. The same goes for plans in 2D it was best to work with models.

So you don't realize it but those subjects I bet have proven very useful, the brain with a lot of modern living, has to be trained in the abstract and the expression of that, English.

The same with languages, learning a second language at a young age, enables you to learn more with ease. Should that be Irish,,,I don't fully agree.

The King of Moo

mloc wrote: »

I'm not sure why "taught better" is really a suggested option.

Unless you are aiming for it to become our most commonly spoken day-to-day language, which would be pretty stupid given the advantages speaking english has brought to our country, teaching it better would still be just as much a waste of time as teaching it the way it is. Possibly worse; teaching it better would require more resources and training, i.e. more wasteful resources and training.

I think Irish is a nice language, but it's more of a curiosity and relic than a practical language today. We should keep it as an option in our schools, but not as a compulsory subject. Removing Irish as a compulsory subject would be one step towards overhauling our rather poor secondary education system.

For me, the main reason for teaching it better during primary school, then making it optional in secondary school (though making it compulsory to do one language, be it Irish or another), is that there are many benefits to children learning a second language.
A language is easier to learn when you're younger, learning a second language (properly) improves one's grasp of one's native tongue, it makes it easier to learn other languages later in life, and generally improves one's mental abilities, particular in terms of pattern-recognition.
Now it's not hugely important to me what that second language would be, but it just seems logical that it would be Irish. We have a major tv and radio station devoted entirely to the language (the former with lots of kids' programmes) and it's visible everywhere, on all street signs and some shop signs.
We could teach kids French or German, but kids would never practice or encounter them outside the class room. I think Irish could be taught to a higher level because of it's current position.

Even if they never spoke it after school, learning Irish properly in primary school, followed by another language or two in secondary school, would be still be more beneficial than learning it for 14 years the way it's currently taught.

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

I think Irish is a nice language, but it's more of a curiosity and relic than a practical language today.

A curiosity and a relic?
Is this your opinion of all minorities, or is it specially for those who's native language happens to be Irish?

Nodin

gigino wrote: »

Well said. People hate their time being wasted and money flushed down the toiled being force fed the dead old language for 14 years. Noboby wants Irish except a few extremists. Go to any bookshop or newsagent in any county in Ireland and you have a been chance of seeing someone buy a winning lotto ticket than a book, magazine or newspaper in Irish. Yet half of what the F****g government prints is in Irish, destroying half a rainforest.

Government prints are done on recycled paper, afaik.

You described the Irish language as "ugly". Please explain.

LordSutch

Doc Ruby wrote: »

And the next of the usual suspects chimes in. All we need is keith and bwatson and we may as well haul up the union jack. Its the nod squad.

Your words lack credibility due to yours and sutch's political leanings, which tend in general to hold Irish society and culture in disdain. In fact the very idea that there might be an Irish society and culture seperate from that of your beloved UK fills you with an unreasoning terror.

But of course you can't just come out and say that, it has to be disguised by haunting threads like these taking random pot shots at relatively easy targets like the language.

Not to say there aren't real problems with the way the Irish language is taught, those badly need fixing. Some of the attitudes of the some of the gaelgóirs could do with adjusting as well. But the language itself is a beautiful thing, which needs to be encouraged to grow.

I think you are being very disingenuous there Doc . . .

LordSutch wrote: »

Personally I am 'anti' the compulsive nature of the force feeding of the Irish language to all ages (and in all Irish schools), but that is not to say that I am 'anti-Irish', far from it, but I am against the mandatory nature of Irish lessons in all schools, for all Irish pupils, of all ages . . .

Let those who want to learn the Irish language be allowed to study & enjoy it, and those families/pupils who don't, be allowed to abstain, this would then dissapate the negative culture that has grown up surrounding the language (due to the force feeding of) over several generations.

Niles

How about keeping it mandatory, to Junior Cert level anyway, (the same way CSPE and PE are - I think?), but not necessarily as an exam subject. Keeps the pressure off, students can focus study time on other subjects, but they might actually learn to enjoy the language, emphasis would be on conversation, etc. By all means also have a optional exam 'literature' subject so that those who excel at it can use it for points purposes (a bit like the way some schools have 'exam' Religion and ordinary Religion available).

I think many people might come to like the language if there was less pressure associated with it.

Cure before kill, that's what I'm saying.

mloc

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A curiosity and a relic?
Is this your opinion of all minorities, or is it specially for those who's native language happens to be Irish?

In this case, Irish. I'll take each case on it's own merits.

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

In this case, Irish. I'll take each case on it's own merits.

Are you actually aware how unbelievably insulting you are being?

Wibbs

Niles wrote:

I think many people might come to like the language if there was less pressure associated with it.

+1000. Too often the very people and mechanisms charged with it's preservation only serve to hold it back. Making it optional after a certain point in education could well increase it's popularity and usage. Particularly if those teaching methods were updated and funds more focused on those who have a love for the language. The same funds currently wasted(IMHO) could also be aimed at adult programmes encouraging the language. Regardless of ones position, it's pretty self evident that how it's been addressed so far hasn't worked.

Teamshadowclan wrote:

I find it funny that some of the pro-compulsion brigade have to fall back on the "West Brit" arguement time and time again.

You and me both, though sadly I don't find it surprising.

Seanchai wrote: »

Not half as badly as the undereducated rantings of the monoglot English-speaking anti-Irish language brigade on this and other threads. A more ignorant and culturally fascist group is hard to conceive of. Not for them notions of cultural diversity. Nope. 'Make Ireland more English!' is the order of the day, every day. Britain and English culture is their home, and they want to ram it down the throats of the rest of us and crush all definitions of Irishness that are not variations of Englishness. The Irish language being, naturally enough, target number 1 in this regard.

Now that's extremism, extreme intolerance and so much more.

Oh well, wasn't long before the true colours came out in the wash. At a fairly low temperature to boot. You know you could have saved the wear and tear on your keyboard by just typing "west brit bastards" with the caps lock on and be done with it. Bit of the old siege mentality going on too, with a very generous side order of "If you don't fall into a narrow category of what we label as Irish you're not truly Irish". And narrow it is. Not so long ago "Catholic" would have been well placed on that list, but thankfully that particular ballsology has had it's day.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Sure you are.

Why do you say that DR? Do you consider someone who might take issue with the compulsory status of the Irish language in education(among other areas), someone who might take issue with the waste all too often associated with that and someone who might take issue with the oft narrow definitions of Irish culture(tm) to be not quite as "Irish as you are"? Honestly? What about those who aren't into GAA games? Those who aren't into Irish trad music? Where do you draw this arbitrary "Irishness" line in the cultural sand? I knew a native Irish speaking Donegal man who could take or leave trad music. More into speed metal IIRC(it was the 80's ). Is he less Irish in some way? What about the pretty large number of folks out there who support their GAA team and like a music session who can't string a cupla focal together to save their lives, are they somehow less Irish in some way? I dunno, but it seems a tad odd to me. Maybe I'm reading you wrong?

For me I enjoy hurling when I get the chance to see it, though team sports were never a big deal for me. TBH trad music has always passed me by. Could never get into hearing the nuances in "the tune", with the exception of the uilleann pipes which I love. I can sometimes get the gist of spoken Irish, if it's of the schoolbook variety, but not much beyond that. This makes me less Irish? I can trace my family lines back on this island quite a few centuries(and its many generations since they were native speakers). Genetically (much)further back. Members of those lines, both in a small way and in an historically noted way have fought and died for this nation while others were busy hiding behind their mothers skirts. so I do think it amusing if I'm being accused of West britism. Though it can be considered illogical, even monstrous by some numpties out there, I am immensely proud of that past and even more proud and fortunate to be born of this great nation and it's incredibly long history(not just the history of failed revolutions that seem to be the focus of too much of it with some). I'm immensely proud of what this nation and it's people have given to the world, both ancient and modern in so many areas of human culture and advancement. And yes I'm proud of it's ancient language that for a time rattled around the heads of some of the greatest thinkers of the early middle ages. I'm proud of it's diversity of what it means to be Irish and how that is expressed, but it really grinds my gears when I hear some try to narrow that legacy to some imagined and forced scale of Irishness.

mloc

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Are you actually aware how unbelievably insulting you are being?

You are entitled to your interpretation of it.

I repeat; I think it's a nice language but it's not practical and is functionally reduced to a relic spoken only by those with a particular interest in it or from a minority Gaeltacht area. That's fine. If anyone wants to learn it, go ahead.

I think making it compulsory, certainly at secondary level, is silly nationalist ideology.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

There's a few overly-enthusiastic militants on both sides of the argument, apparently. But the majority of us who would be pro-compulsory, accept the language, it's just not for everyone.

The problem is: no-one has yet come up with a good argument for compulsion. It doesn't help the reluctant studen (if they want to give it up at 1 but can't, they'll moer thank likley give it up at 17) and it doesn;t help the language (how can breeding more distate for it, help it?)

The argment for other subjects is pointless. I'm of the opinion that no subject should be compulsory after Junior Cert for the exact same practial reasons: if you're not going to study Shakespeare or quadratic equations after JC, the you should be allowed to drop it. Allowing the student to specialise in to choose subkects will allow them to develope the skills they want to develop, and offer more options to the students who don't know. How is this a bad thing?

I'm still waiting for someone - anyone - to tell me exactly how compulsion in Irish helps either the language or the student, or how it could be a bad thing for either the student or the system.

Niles

As regards making subjects like Maths and English optional after the JC, I see where you're coming from IkkyPoo2, but my concern would be that 15 is a very young age to make a decision that could be potentially affect your career path. Once you drop Maths that's it as far as maths/science/engineering related careers are concerned, I never used maths in my degree but all the same at fifteen I didn't know if that would be the case, I didn't know what I wanted to do (and at 23 I probably still don't! ).

Cú Giobach

mloc wrote: »

You are entitled to your interpretation of it.

I repeat; I think it's a nice language but it's not practical and is functionally reduced to a relic spoken only by those with a particular interest in it or from a minority Gaeltacht area.

How on earth can a persons native language be "not practical" the last time I looked a language was very practical, especially when everyone in your family or community speak it.
How can a living modern day language be a relic? As I said earlier in the thread, if Irish is a relic then so is every other living language on the planet.

Your attitude reminds me of some pith helmeted gent wandering through darkest Africa peering at the natives and marvelling at the "curiosities" he is witnessing.
In other words you have the attitude of a Victorian explorer, why don't you join us here in the 21st century it's not too bad.

That's fine. If anyone wants to learn it, go ahead.

Why isn't that nice of you.

I think making it compulsory, certainly at secondary level, is silly nationalist ideology.

Well good for you.

lividduck

Cú Giobach wrote: »

How on earth can a persons native language be "not practical" the last time I looked a language was very practical, especially when everyone in your family or community speak it.
How can a living modern day language be a relic? As I said earlier in the thread, if Irish is a relic then so is every other living language on the planet.

Your attitude reminds me of some pith helmeted gent wandering through darkest Africa peering at the natives and marvelling at the "curiosities" he is witnessing.
In other words you have the attitude of a Victorian explorer, why don't you join us here in the 21st century it's not too bad.

Why isn't that nice of you.

Well good for you.

Its dead RIP.
More people in Ireland speak English, Polish,Chinese,Latvian than Irish (if irish is a real language since it appears to use a lot of makkey uppy in it)
If people want to study Irish,Latin, or Esperato for fun thats fine, fair play but it has NO place in the school curriculum as a compulsory subject.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

lividduck wrote: »

Its dead RIP.
More people in Ireland speak English, Polish,Chinese,Latvian than Irish (if irish is a real language since it appears to use a lot of makkey uppy in it)
If people want to study Irish,Latin, or Esperato for fun thats fine, fair play but it has NO place in the school curriculum as a compulsory subject.

Saying that is just as bad as syign that it should be forced.

lividduck

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Saying that is just as bad as syign that it should be forced.

If the truth hurts take two panadol.

twinQuins

Cú Giobach wrote: »

How on earth can a persons native language be "not practical" the last time I looked a language was very practical, especially when everyone in your family or community speak it.
How can a living modern day language be a relic? As I said earlier in the thread, if Irish is a relic then so is every other living language on the planet.

Drop the obtusiveness; a tiny minority of the population actually speaks the language fluently, never mind using it to communicate day-to-day.

For the vasty majority of people in this country, English is their native language. You know that, don't act like it isn't the reality of the situation.

Your attitude reminds me of some pith helmeted gent wandering through darkest Africa peering at the natives and marvelling at the "curiosities" he is witnessing.
In other words you have the attitude of a Victorian explorer, why don't you join us here in the 21st century it's not too bad.

Oh, the irony!