Eircom eFibre VDSL/FTTC rollout – plans to reach 1.6m premises by mid 2016

red_bairn

Manc Red wrote: »

I don't know. It's just a pic I got from google image search.

Really? A 50% speed drop from being just under 300 meters away? How can they even advertise the 70Mbps speed if you need to be within 100-200 meters from it?

It kinda puts it into perspective that we are only starting to get proper FTTC (70-150Mbps) speed in 2013 when in the US, cities are starting to get 1Gbps from Google for pretty reasonable prices.

Look at the Eircom one, not the ThinkBroadband.
70/20 @ Rate Adaptive - <=300M
43/5 @ Stable line (needed for IPTV)

We'll have between 50-70Mbps depending on which profile @ less than 300m. They will update the system in the future to increase to about 80-100. They also will have the lines in place to have FTTH ready in the future (i.e. the fibre that goes to these green cabinets have 2 lines per house*).

I'm just giving you snippets of what I've learnt from this thread but the others may be able to make my dribble sound a bit more professional with their wording since they know the scene.

I thought Kansas is the only US city with Google fibre?

liamnojo92

I'm about 200m from our exchange atm would I get better latency on fibre over copper even over such a short distance ?

Sponge Bob

red_bairn wrote: »

Look at the Eircom one, not the ThinkBroadband.
70/20 @ Rate Adaptive - <=300M
43/5 @ Stable line (needed for IPTV)

We'll have between 50-70Mbps depending on which profile @ less than 300m. They will update the system in the future to increase to about 80-100.

They will update quite soon. Again 80-100mbits at <=400M when they bring in 'vectoring' technology unless they go to system vectoring and skip card level vectoring. We shall see. System level will go past 100mbits.

They also will have the lines in place to have FTTH ready in the future (i.e. the fibre that goes to these green cabinets have 2 lines per house*).

No. eircom have lost so many customers now that they have 2 copper pairs per customer ( averaged) and can offer VDSL over two copper lines. This is called BONDED VDSL2. In smaller towns with no cable they will not have spare pairs like they do in the cities.

A cabinet can do around 200 VDSL connections and has 20 spare fibres installed for future expansion. Logically that will be FTTH in the late part of this decade.

Manc Red

briany wrote: »

I don't know why we're comparing ourselves to America. There's plenty of places closer to home which are enjoying an immensely faster average broadband speed.

Apart from Google Fibre, which is a great initiative, there's big portions of broadband consuming Americans who are under the yoke of the cable cartel, are given terrible service (in relation to what they pay) and are being treated with the kind of disdain that American mega corporations do so well and would make Eircom's antics seem quaint. 'Til now the big ISPs over there have had little reason to improve due to a lack of competition.

It was an example. Didn't say it was the best.

red_bairn wrote: »

Look at the Eircom one, not the ThinkBroadband.
70/20 @ Rate Adaptive - <=300M
43/5 @ Stable line (needed for IPTV)

We'll have between 50-70Mbps depending on which profile @ less than 300m. They will update the system in the future to increase to about 80-100. They also will have the lines in place to have FTTH ready in the future (i.e. the fibre that goes to these green cabinets have 2 lines per house*).

I'm just giving you snippets of what I've learnt from this thread but the others may be able to make my dribble sound a bit more professional with their wording since they know the scene.

I thought Kansas is the only US city with Google fibre?

Thanks!

Texas will be the next place to get 1Gpbs speeds. Also because it's Google, they have offers which include TV services, Nexus 7 + cloud storage etc... Hopefully the new management at Eircom will improve things but my bet is that we won't see even half those speeds here in Ireland within the next 5-8 years.

https://fiber.google.com/about/

Solair

From what I've read on Huawei's website, they seem to be using SmartAX MA5616 in those cabinets.

Huawei have a fairly big blurb about eircom's project. It seems they're involved in the on-going maintenance of the whole setup too.

http://www.huawei.com/ilink/en/solutions/broader-smarter/HW_258183 (eircom blurb from Huawei including a pretty decent explanation of the technology being deployed in a video)

http://www.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/fttx/mxu/MA5616/

It seems like a very flexible piece of kit and already supports things like bonded VDSL.

(It can also support POTS, ISDN, ADSL2+ amongst other things too, although I suppose that depends on what cards you slot in, but in theory it's a full multi-service access node)

The line lengths given in that document posted above seem to be for just bog standard generic VDSL2 kit, not vectored VDSL2.

Incidentally, the Huawei kit supports all sorts of different vectoring possibilities, including other networks DSLAMs being linked, so from a competition point of view, I can't really see why ComReg would have any issue with vectoring.
I sincerely hope they don't come up with a whole load of unnecessary bureaucracy about it.

Info about G.Vector (which is the developing standard that this kit supports)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVEzO6gu4hY

Manc Red

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They will update quite soon. Again 80-100mbits at <=400M when they bring in 'vectoring' technology unless they go to system vectoring and skip card level vectoring. We shall see. System level will go past 100mbits.



No. eircom have lost so many customers now that they have 2 copper pairs per customer ( averaged) and can offer VDSL over two copper lines. This is called BONDED VDSL2. In smaller towns with no cable they will not have spare pairs like they do in the cities.

A cabinet can do around 200 VDSL connections and has 20 spare fibres installed for future expansion. Logically that will be FTTH in the late part of this decade.

I'm roughly 260-280 meters away. What kind of speeds will that offer and will it improve ping?

Solair

Manc Red wrote: »

I'm roughly 260-280 meters away. What kind of speeds will that offer and will it improve ping?

Nobody's entirely sure to be perfectly honest, as this stuff is actually more modern that what BT and most other European operators have rolled out for VDSL2.
Vectoring's not deployed in UK VDSL2 networks (no plans to until 2015 or later).

At 260-280 meters you should probably get close to full speed though, I would assume.
With regard to ping times, again, nobody knows as they're dependent on factors like how many 'hops' your connection goes through.

I'd assume the ping times will be good (most likely a lot better than ADSL2+), but nobody can answer that question without actually seeing the network in action.

It's really the network routers that will determine your ping time.

(your house)=====copper======(DSLAM)~~~~~~(fibre speed of light)~~~~~(Router1)~~~~~fibre~~~~~(router 2)~~~~~~~fibre~~~~~(router 3) ... (destination)


The fibre sections will have EXTREMELY low ping times as it's a photon travelling down a glass fibre at the speed of light, but every switch, router or electronic device that it passes through on the way will cause ping increases.
If the routers and switches are fast enough, the ping times are low, if they're not, the ping time increases.
The more hops (passes through servers/routers/switches) the higher the ping.

So, again, until we see the network running - that question can't really be answered.

You'll also get different ping times depending on which network you use i.e. eircom retail, Vodafone, Sky, UTV, Digiweb/Smart, Magnet, or whoever it is that provides your service. The local access network's not the only thing that determines the ping.

However, I would assume being a brand new network with lots of capacity, it should be top notch.

Just remember, that in any network, the routing/switching is done electronically and not optically. So, the ultra high speed fibre is dropping back to electronic gear and moving at the speed of electrons through a conductor, rather than light.

There are optical switches using microelectromechanical technology. Basically miniaturised crossbar switches using tiny mirrors, but they're expensive and not generally used other than for very specialised purposes, but they are used where you need vast capacity and speed.

Ironically, they've actually more in common with an electromechanical era telephone exchange than a digital electronic router. Essentially they're interconnecting beams of light, not processing data.

I'm remaining optimistic about this network. It looks pretty decent.

Fingers x'd it performs really well when switched on in May!

briany

I had been hearing talk of speeds up to 150mb depending on distance from the cabinet. Not that I'm sniffing at the 70mb but is the former figure just hot air?

Solair

briany wrote: »

I had been hearing talk of speeds up to 150mb depending on distance from the cabinet. Not that I'm sniffing at the 70mb but is the former figure just hot air?

It'd only be possible if they gave you two lines bonded.

Sponge Bob

Bonded AND Vectored I'd say Solair.

Technology/Software Enhancements and plain old give everyone 2 lines instead of 1 will get VDSL to somewhere between 2 and 300 mbits before Telcos give up and run fibre over the last 1000m to the home.

Manc Red

Solair wrote: »

---snip---

Thanks. Some great info there. I wasn't expecting such a detailed reply.

I need good upload speed. Currently getting 0.4mbps with Eircom. Will the FTTC offer good upload speeds do you think?

I live on a private family lane with three homes. I'm about 100 meters off the main road. How will they deliver FTTH to me or is it even possible?

There would need to be roads dug up to put it down I would assume?

briany wrote: »

I had been hearing talk of speeds up to 150mb depending on distance from the cabinet. Not that I'm sniffing at the 70mb but is the former figure just hot air?

Would it be FTTH?

Eircom were advertising those speeds for fibre last summer. Then they took it down. :rolleyes:

Manc Red

The Wholesale NGA products that will enable Service Providers to offer initial broadband speeds of up to 70Mb per second will launch in early 2013. In time the NGA network will support speeds of over 100Mbps.

http://www.nextgenerationnetwork.ie/ngn-access

briany

Manc Red wrote: »

Would it be FTTH?

Eircom were advertising those speeds for fibre last summer. Then they took it down. :rolleyes:

No, I never got that impression. Just to the cab.

Seeing different figures being quoted by Eircom and different posters here and on the sister thread specific to ongoing work in North County Dublin is what made me ask. Eircom obviously want to hedge their bets in any kind of service roll out.

It would be nice if somebody in the know posted an 'upgrade guide' at some point. Just bullet points with what to expect and/or what to do if you're a customer in an eligible zone.

Sponge Bob

If you are not within 400m of a cabinet you can forget about 100mbits for quite a few years although 100mbits at perhaps 600-700m will be possible in future. * post 2015.

Solair

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If you are not within 400m of a cabinet you can forget about 100mbits for quite a few years although 100mbits at perhaps 600-700m will be possible in future. * post 2015.

There are a few factors at play.

1) You can't easily gauge the length of your line - it may be longer/shorter than the road unless it's directly overhead and you can see it!

2) The quality and gauge of copper wire used varies depending on the era of installation. So, that can impact on it.

3) Vectoring's actually pretty much brand new technology. I am not sure when eircom will turn it on, but they should be able to support with that Huawei equipment immediately.

From what I gather the hold up is to do with sub-loop unbundling and concerns from other operators and ComReg that they will not be able to install their own cabinets/DSLAMs across the same network. Although that's quite easily resolvable with the D.Vector standard which is rapidly emerging.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that there would also possibly be issues getting it to 'place nice' with older ADSL2+ gear in the exchange which would possibly be sharing the same lines for a while i.e. legacy accounts on eircom ADSL2+ or LLU providers ADSL2+.

The ADSL2+ lines and the VDSL2 lines would all be in the same bundle, so you'd probably have to vector the ADSL2+ gear too or switch it off and move everyone to VDSL2 (which would make more sense!)

I'm wondering if that's why they're holding off switching on vectoring immediately i.e. they plan to port everyone on an exchange to VDSL2 and that would take a while and until then the ADSL2+ gear might 'screw up' the vectoring as the VDSL2 equipment couldn't actively manage the older DSLAMs crosstalk.

Nobody will be getting 100mbit/s until vectoring's switched on.

I just hope ComReg comes up with a workable solution to vectoring a.s.a.p. though. i don't think it's in eircom or the other DSL operators' interests to delay it too long as UPC already beats even vectored VDSL2 by quite a bit on speed. It delivers 150mbit/s in many areas without any issue.

So it's still 50% faster than VDSL2 even if the cabinet werein your living room with the modem standing on top of it and vectoring's on.

Sponge Bob

Solair wrote: »

There are a few factors at play.

The ADSL2+ lines and the VDSL2 lines would all be in the same bundle, so you'd probably have to vector the ADSL2+ gear too or switch it off and move everyone to VDSL2 (which would make more sense!)

They will do the latter, move everyone on ADSL2 to VDSL2. Not sure about really basic ADSL1 type packages but all the ADSL2 userbase will be migrated over the summer.

I'm wondering if that's why they're holding off switching on vectoring immediately i.e. they plan to port everyone on an exchange to VDSL2 and that would take a

Nobody will be getting 100mbit/s until vectoring's switched on.

Yes, Vectoring is not 'roadmapped' until late this year and they need time as you said to port over the existing userbase.

Once Vectoring is switched on expect up to 100mbit sorts of packages but achievable only at short distances with early vectoring, think 300-400m max. Even if you are across the road from a cab the cable may well go down the road and up to get to you and therefore exceed 300m of a run.

Yoru current line stats are of limited use as they indicate line length from the exchange not the cabinet.

If they moved EVERYBODY to Cabinet launched ADSL2 straight off that would mean everone could use their existing gear and eircom/end users could reliably predict what VDSL packages the lines would support.

Solair

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They will do the latter, move everyone on ADSL2 to VDSL2. Not sure about really basic ADSL1 type packages but all the ADSL2 userbase will be migrated over the summer.

The problem with that is will LLU providers be willing to shut down their ADSL2+??

It could mean problems in large exchanges with LLU providers present.

eircom wholesale would have to make it worthwhile financially to use alternatives over VDSL2.

I can see this landing in a quagmire of consultations and red-tape at ComReg.

Praetorian

I am hoping Eircom will do something similar to BT's Fibre on Demand where business's / homes can pay towards the cost of running direct fibre FTTH / FTTP (or whatever you want to call it).

"The bigger news for many is the some of the first official indications of the installation cost for Fibre on Demand, a property that is 500m away from a NGA Aggregation Node will incur a charge of £1000 plus another £500 for installation of the service into the property. The £1000 charge will be smaller if closer to the NGA Aggregation node and higher if further away, no indications of the range of variation is available. These figures replace previous estimates we made of £500 - £1500 which we were told were in the ball park almost a year ago."

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/5614-first-official-indications-of-fibre-on-demand-pricing-from-openreach.html

For my company I would pay towards a real fibre service.

Sponge Bob

Solair wrote: »

The problem with that is will LLU providers be willing to shut down their ADSL2+??

I can see this landing in a quagmire of consultations and red-tape at ComReg.

It has been in a quagmire in Comreg since about 2009 .

Once you roll out Vectored ADSL you kill off LLU, end of.

As eircom are not giving everybody VDSL in some areas ( small cabs and underground splits) some will continue to rely on LLU from their old exchange as their cable will not connect back to a VDSL Cabinet. That will be fun too.....even slap bang in the middle of Dublin.

Sponge Bob

Praetorian wrote: »

For my company I would pay towards a real fibre service.

If you have neighbouring companies I suggest you band together and get eircom to install a cab in YORE business park...yes you must bribe them with cash, perhaps €15-20k upfront.

However you benefit from cheaper services thereafter by taking the hit upfront ( and your offices are FAR more valuable/shiftable if you need to move) and if you need fibre in future you can dig the duct to the cab yourself and let them blow it in with no civils costs as they provision 24 fibres per cab as standard and there will be 20 spare fibre pairs there on day one.

That is what I would recommend if there are perhaps 10 businesses ready to share the cabinet cost at €1-2k each and you are not within 300m of a cab right now.

Each subduct ( where present) can support about 5 cabinets with fibre and maybe 6. I dount whether they can get more fibre into a subduct thereafter so the 'next' cabinet needs a new subduct of its own which could cost €3k-4k a km back to the existing exchange. It may be that the subduct is only stuffed near the exchange but that the main duct is full and they need to pull out old E Side copper they no longer need so that they can put more subduct in.

Asking the KN lads lots of questions while they are about is highly advised, especially near the exchange where ducts are fullest.

phoenix999

Just spotted two in Cork city centre near South Gate Bridge. Already covered in graffiti. lol

Shyboy

I was over in London last week where every single road seems to have a couple of cabs and I have to say that I was appalled at the state that some of them have become. Most have the doors wide open and many are covered in Graffiti.

TheChizler

phoenix999 wrote: »

Just spotted two in Cork city centre near South Gate Bridge. Already covered in graffiti. lol

Where's the second one there? There's distribution and traffic light cabs by fordes, one distribution cab across from the flying enterprise, and a VDSL across from phil o sullivans. Could it possibly be one of those?

Edit: Should probably be in the other thread.

red_bairn

Possibly saw a KN networks van just hauling a large reel of ducting (orange) through Greystones. *fingers crossed*

briany

Shyboy wrote: »

I was over in London last week where every single road seems to have a couple of cabs and I have to say that I was appalled at the state that some of them have become. Most have the doors wide open and many are covered in Graffiti.

Are these cabinets vulnerable to destructive vandalism, the kind that can cause internet outages and a few electrocuted gurriers?

Solair

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It has been in a quagmire in Comreg since about 2009 .

Once you roll out Vectored ADSL you kill off LLU, end of.

As eircom are not giving everybody VDSL in some areas ( small cabs and underground splits) some will continue to rely on LLU from their old exchange as their cable will not connect back to a VDSL Cabinet. That will be fun too.....even slap bang in the middle of Dublin.

The only long term solution to that is micro-cabinets that can be used with underground splits / on poles etc.

Solair

briany wrote: »

Are these cabinets vulnerable to destructive vandalism, the kind that can cause internet outages and a few electrocuted gurriers?

They're pretty high security. Also to be fair, there are lots of cabinets around most Irish towns and cities and other than mild graffiti they seem to survive for decades unscathed.
Eircom distribution cabinets, UPC/cable cabinets, ESB cabinets, traffic light even Bord Gais have a few cabinets aroundetc etc etc.

I wouldn't really see a VDSL cabinet as much different from a traffic signal cabinet and they survive very well, other than the odd encounter with a 40 ton truck

The only issue I've seen here in Cork was our local distribution cabinet was actually reversed into by a truck.

Eircom have sited quite a few VDSL cabs down here ON THE ROAD in narrow areas of the city that lack wide pavements. It's really asking for trouble as they're eventually going to have an encounter with a reversing bin lorry or whatever.

They need mechanical protection.

bk

Solair wrote: »

http://www.huawei.com/ilink/en/solutions/broader-smarter/HW_258183 (eircom blurb from Huawei including a pretty decent explanation of the technology being deployed in a video)

Interesting, in the Eircom/Huawei video above, an Eircom person mentions they are planning to install 5,000 cabs over the next two years!!

This seems much more extensive then their current 1,000 cabs plan.

5,000 cabs sounds like enough cabs to cover almost every line in the country including rural areas! I wonder do Eircom have a much bigger plan for future phases to roll this out throughout the country.

We may finally reaching the dream of very good quality broadband for almost everyone in the country.

That just leaves the issue of making sure it is also affordable.

bk

Solair wrote: »

I wouldn't really see a VDSL cabinet as much different from a traffic signal cabinet and they survive very well, other than the odd encounter with a 40 ton truck

The only issue I've seen here in Cork was our local distribution cabinet was actually reversed into by a truck.

Yup, they placed a cab near my parents house in Cork, right on the corner of a bend at a bottom of a hill, a location that has cars and trucks hitting the wall behind the cab at least once a month.

This cab is definitely going to get demolished.

Sponge Bob

red_bairn wrote: »

Possibly saw a KN networks van just hauling a large reel of ducting (orange) through Greystones. *fingers crossed*

The big reels of Orange Stuff (=Subduct) is the first sign that something is happening.