Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

Fair enough, personally, between grinding with a high win ratio (England or SA in their "pomp") vs a more "gallic" or dare I even think it Welsh flare, the later randomness is how I like my rugby, but there we are. We are neither past while (well... two games against our newest of old rivals).

I think we are competitive, and to massively overlabour my points, so are others and its an inches and centimetres kind of season, like any other. Last 2 seasons with 2 losses in the 6 nations and dismal warm ups not great, must do better, individual games of brilliance we were not favourites for: 2. History? A teeny bit. We need to make more of it. And also be waaaay more aggressive at the breakdown / tackle which was the foundation of our best moments we somehow forgot against Wales.

I would much prefer us to play a style that suited our players and crucially was a winning strategy. For years, the stuff it up your jumper rugby, pin them in the corners, was exactly this. We had a solid lineout, disruptive to the hilt, and we were ferocious in defence. We ground out wins, and we just about missed a GS before just about winning one.

Since then, the game, and the players available to us have changed. An expansive and evasive gameplan that Leinster and Wales have employed seems to be one of the more "winning" of styles available to play rugby. A lot of teams don't have the players that can do this. We certainly can. Yet we don't.

We are still playing the battered ould gameplan that was written on a copybook in a boy's school in 1997, and we don't have the right players, nor the right rules (most importantly!) for this to work.

I genuinely can't understand how anyone can think Kidney is a good coach. A coach is not just a "nice guy", a "people person", who gets "the extra 10%". I reckon he's great at all of the above, yet that can't set him aside as a rugby coach. I think it's incredibly disingenuous to pretty much all other coaches of pro rugby in the NH that you'd single Kidney out as the best available coach to Ireland tbh.

His prior record - Got absolutely bags of results with a Munster team that would've struggled to lose with an 8 year old at the helm, playing the game that suited the team, and the times. And as above, just about edging a grand slam for Ireland by doing the same thing "Winning Ugly".

andrewdcs

molloyjh wrote: »

They also lost to Scotland and were hammered by England.

True, all the better to highlight the home / away difficult nature of predicting 6 nations results,... Obv Italy beating France was a huge huge turn (I think it was 1-26 for result of something stupid) but England turned it on last 6 nations a few times (remember a certain Chris Ashton??)

Come to think of it, France won only 3 games I think (didn't england and itlay beat them?) and came second?
We should really have beaten France last season, but didn't. It's really that tight.

Quint2010

Whats the position on centrally contracted players? Is Kidney restricted to those who have IRFU contracts and thus cannot pick new players whilly nilly?

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

I would much prefer us to play a style that suited our players and crucially was a winning strategy. For years, the stuff it up your jumper rugby, pin them in the corners, was exactly this. We had a solid lineout, disruptive to the hilt, and we were ferocious in defence. We ground out wins, and we just about missed a GS before just about winning one.

Since then, the game, and the players available to us have changed. An expansive and evasive gameplan that Leinster and Wales have employed seems to be one of the more "winning" of styles available to play rugby. A lot of teams don't have the players that can do this. We certainly can. Yet we don't.

Very much agree with above. But I'd say that we have won games pretty, we did it against England, at a gallop, we did it against France and lost by 3 points or so (butter fingers and all we still could have won). "We wuz robbed ref" (though were lacklustre generally and spoiled by breakdown bashing) against wales. I think we outscored France and Wales in tries? And not against Italy (as England ran in 4 or 5)

Deleted User wrote: »

I genuinely can't understand how anyone can think Kidney is a good coach. A coach is not just a "nice guy", a "people person", who gets "the extra 10%". I reckon he's great at all of the above, yet that can't set him aside as a rugby coach. I think it's incredibly disingenuous to pretty much all other coaches of pro rugby in the NH that you'd single Kidney out as the best available coach to Ireland tbh.

His prior record - Got absolutely bags of results with a Munster team that would've struggled to lose with an 8 year old at the helm, playing the game that suited the team, and the times. And as above, just about edging a grand slam for Ireland by doing the same thing "Winning Ugly".

It's nothing to do with him being a nice guy, and everything to do with inflated expectations created in no small part by a certain Mr. Kidney... winning things with Irish clubs no, Munster would not have won what they did with anyone at the wheel... are you trying to tell me they dominated in every game? Please. They SCRAPED through a load of times and had many heroic adventures, Kidney was a huge part of that. It galled me at the time (2006 Lansdowne...that was a demolition) but credit where its due emmet.
Did he leave Munster in rude health? Hells yeah.... the 'end of an era' nonsense has finally (thankfully) been put to bed.

I'll give you a lot of ground on the "game has changed" point as I think we certainly screw ourselves around the 22 man element, but I just think theres way too narrow a margin to blame / call for the position of Kidney and his backroom team. Have we dramatically better set of players now than when we won? I'd say about the same.

Ok, theres some stuff in every game, or rather, we don't romp it enough like Leinster have this season, but we're miles from the debacle that some on here would suggest.

andrewdcs

Quint2010 wrote: »

Whats the position on centrally contracted players? Is Kidney restricted to those who have IRFU contracts and thus cannot pick new players whilly nilly?

no, the current squad has non central players in it. think it makes financial sense to have them contracted centrally, clubs already have the books layed out and season team plan ready, but the limitation is only on Irish qualified, not contracted.

Podge_irl

andrewdcs wrote: »

I think we are competitive, and to massively overlabour my points, so are others and its an inches and centimetres kind of season, like any other. Last 2 seasons with 2 losses in the 6 nations and dismal warm ups not great, must do better, individual games of brilliance we were not favourites for: 2. History? A teeny bit. We need to make more of it. And also be waaaay more aggressive at the breakdown / tackle which was the foundation of our best moments we somehow forgot against Wales.

I could put up with the losses to a point if Ireland weren't playing such puke rugby. It doesn't even look like it's designed to win, it's designed to "try and not lose". It's frustrating, conservative, mind-numbing rugby that is never going to take Ireland anywhere in the long run.

Ireland managed to lose to Scotland at home two years ago for the first time in ages and it's not cause Scotland suddenly got a lot better (cause they're still a poor team).

Quint2010

andrewdcs wrote: »

no, the current squad has non central players in it. think it makes financial sense to have them contracted centrally, clubs already have the books layed out and season team plan ready, but the limitation is only on Irish qualified, not contracted.

So those who have an IRFU contract get paid even if they don't play for Ireland in a given year? (injuries, loss of form etc.)

Podge_irl

andrewdcs wrote: »

Ok, theres some stuff in every game, or rather, we don't romp it enough like Leinster have this season, but we're miles from the debacle that some on here would suggest.

We've won 4 games out of 10 so far this season. Since moving to Lansdowne we've lost 6 of 9 home games - beating Samoa, Argentina and England.

That's pretty bloody poor.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

We've won 4 games out of 10 so far this season. Since moving to Lansdowne we've lost 6 of 9 home games - beating Samoa, Argentina and England.

That's pretty bloody poor.

Jesus..

andrewdcs

Podge_irl wrote: »

I could put up with the losses to a point if Ireland weren't playing such puke rugby. It doesn't even look like it's designed to win, it's designed to "try and not lose". It's frustrating, conservative, mind-numbing rugby that is never going to take Ireland anywhere in the long run.

Ireland managed to lose to Scotland at home two years ago for the first time in ages and it's not cause Scotland suddenly got a lot better (cause they're still a poor team).

I've not said we're awesome, just that we're not on a pedestal. The mind numbingness isn't prevalent though, its erratic. I really (hopfully) dont think our team were asked to go out and conceed ground to wales in the hope of them, i dunno, running out of punch. Nor scotland last year, but they hit it hard and we failed to respond. Inches.

That (scotland) was as bad a result as Wales this year and we had a rebound, the number of times you can do this is limited but I agree. Scotland were ok against us, they got the bounce of a ball if you will, that we've needed many many times (and will need) but scotland are not 20 points worse than us, ok they cant score tries, but they were 10 mins from beating France last year as well (more I think about it, France were dirt last season.... then finished second and made le Grande Fromage Finale.... with the same (imho) awful coach. makes you think.

andrewdcs

Podge_irl wrote: »

We've won 4 games out of 10 so far this season. Since moving to Lansdowne we've lost 6 of 9 home games - beating Samoa, Argentina and England.

That's pretty bloody poor.

Yes, very poor, but warm up games against England and France with pick and mix selections (that drove me mental as it was always the combinations (TOL et al) that I didnt like.) and twice against Wales... which are, I think the ones that hurt the most as the are our closest friends and rivals at the moment.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

I could put up with the losses to a point if Ireland weren't playing such puke rugby. It doesn't even look like it's designed to win, it's designed to "try and not lose". It's frustrating, conservative, mind-numbing rugby that is never going to take Ireland anywhere in the long run.

Ireland managed to lose to Scotland at home two years ago for the first time in ages and it's not cause Scotland suddenly got a lot better (cause they're still a poor team).

That defeat was a seminal point in Deccie's Kidney. We went out and tried to play 15 man Leinster style attacking rugby and ended up losing to a team we would have put away had we played Deccies preferred style. Ever since then its been conservative Deccie from the get-go.

Podge_irl

andrewdcs wrote: »

Yes, very poor, but warm up games against England and France with pick and mix selections (that drove me mental as it was always the combinations (TOL et al) that I didnt like.) and twice against Wales... which are, I think the ones that hurt the most as the are our closest friends and rivals at the moment.

Yes, but warm-up losses that were explained away by saying "better to lose now and win in the RWC - judge us on that". We then went on to another underwhelming QF exit - so the coaches (and players) have to take a fair amount of blame for that.

It's the sporadic nature of Ireland's performances that really grates with me. It implies that the team is capable of playing to that level but rarely reach it - which to me means a coaching problem.

MungBean

JustinDee wrote: »

Have a trawl through the threads from last RWC and read the comments from people before the Italian game back then. The doom and gloom was hilarious.

I would expect Ireland to win on Saturday but thats because I know the team have it in them to bring out the performance to do so. Italy are most definitely not as poop as some would have us believe. We've seen already how they can pull a result in or almost grab it.

They were seriously bad against England though, I know they are not the worst team in the world but have they really shown anything recently to show they are capable of putting up a fight against a team like Ireland ?

Their world cup team was superior to their current team and they were still outclassed by pretty much the same team we are putting out on Saturday. They put up somewhat of a fight then due to their strong pack which they no longer have I think.

I dont think anyone is too far off the mark saying they are the worst team in the six nations. If its between them and Scotland the question isnt which are better but which are worse.

Podge_irl

Quint2010 wrote: »

That defeat was a seminal point in Deccie's Kidney. We went out and tried to play 15 man Leinster style attacking rugby and ended up losing to a team we would have put away had we played Deccies preferred style. Ever since then its been conservative Deccie from the get-go.

Not entirely. We started out the last 6N with a more ball in hand game that wasn't quite coming off. It was certainly close though and we scored some nice tries. Then we lost at home to France and we saw another complete about-face in tactics to leathering the ball at every opportunity. Until we lost to Wales and we played more rugby ball in hand against England.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

We've won 4 games out of 10 so far this season. Since moving to Lansdowne we've lost 6 of 9 home games - beating Samoa, Argentina and England.

That's pretty bloody poor.

That is shocking stuff. Just had a look at our home record for the last 2 years as well. Since Jan 2010 we've won 5 of our 12 home games. Since Jan 2011 it's 1 of 5.

In all we've played 26 games since Jan 2010 and won 12. 3 of those wins were so-called minnows (Russia, USA & Samoa) and 3 were against Italy (for as competitive and physical as they are we should still expect to beat them, we have a far better team). Factor in the 1 win from 3 against Scotland and that's 7 of our 12 wins against 3rd seed nations. It leaves us with 1 victory over Argentina, 1 (out of 4) against Wales and 2 (out of 3) against England and of course that one over Australia.

Not pretty reading...

Quint2010 wrote: »

That defeat was a seminal point in Deccie's Kidney. We went out and tried to play 15 man Leinster style attacking rugby and ended up losing to a team we would have put away had we played Deccies preferred style. Ever since then its been conservative Deccie from the get-go.

Not sure about that tbh. We had a fair cut at NZ in the AIs that year playing an expansive game and looked like we were making some progress. We then tried to keep it going in the first 2 games of the 6 Nations last year. But after the French game it was abandoned in favour of the kicking game. Which was subsequently abandoned after it proved to be even worse than what we had been doing. Since then (England and Aussie games apart) we've struggled to have any sort of coherent game plan at all. Hence all this talk lately from camp about finding an "Irish" style of playing.

Quint2010

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not entirely. We started out the last 6N with a more ball in hand game that wasn't quite coming off. It was certainly close though and we scored some nice tries. Then we lost at home to France and we saw another complete about-face in tactics to leathering the ball at every opportunity. Until we lost to Wales and we played more rugby ball in hand against England.

Did we not start out the last six nations by scraping a last gasp two point win over Italy scoring one try in the process?

Tox56

Wouldn't it be something if somehow, after the coaches have had 3 weeks to think about it, and playing at home, they cut loose and choose the right game plan, the players execute it, and we demolish Italy, with beautiful, free-flowing, running rugby.

These coaches are paid to do their job, with so much experience, surely they have had the time to digest the Welsh game, and understand the right way to do things?

It's possible?

danthefan

Quint2010 wrote: »

That defeat was a seminal point in Deccie's Kidney. We went out and tried to play 15 man Leinster style attacking rugby and ended up losing to a team we would have put away had we played Deccies preferred style. Ever since then its been conservative Deccie from the get-go.

We didn't lose because we tried to play rugby though, we lost to a large degree because our set piece got absolutely destroyed. You will struggle to find a better example of complete and utter domination in both scrum and lineout as Scotland had that day. I think we lost 7 lineouts (no subs were made to try and correct this) and our scrum marched backwards (no subs were made to try and correct this either until around 79mins and 30seconds when Buckley replaced Hayes).

Podge_irl

Quint2010 wrote: »

Did we not start out the last six nations by scraping a last gasp two point win over Italy scoring one try in the process?

Yes, that game in particular is where the backs were really failing to make the last pass. There were a lot of dropped balls and moves being butchered after all the hard work was done, but there was a definite tactic to try and play a bit of rugby. Things got much better, but sadly not quite enough, against France when we scored three tries.

Then Kidney's complete lack of conviction in the gameplan surfaced and we reverted to kick-city.

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes, that game in particular is where the backs were really failing to make the last pass. There were a lot of dropped balls and moves being butchered after all the hard work was done, but there was a definite tactic to try and play a bit of rugby. Things got much better, but sadly not quite enough, against France when we scored three tries.

Then Kidney's complete lack of conviction in the gameplan surfaced and we reverted to kick-city.

I'd be curious to know who made that decision though. Was it the coaches? Or was it the IRFU? We've been told a lot over the last few months in particular that the 6 Nations is the be all and end all of Irish rugby. Eddie has gone on record to say that coaches in Ireland are under huge pressure to win games in the 6Ns. After seeing it not come together in the first 2 games could/would they have stepped in at all? I'd hope not.

Either way it's a sad state of affairs if the coach bottles it like that with little to no back-up plan or if the union starts telling him how to do his job.

dtpc191991

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes, that game in particular is where the backs were really failing to make the last pass. There were a lot of dropped balls and moves being butchered after all the hard work was done, but there was a definite tactic to try and play a bit of rugby. Things got much better, but sadly not quite enough, against France when we scored three tries.

Then Kidney's complete lack of conviction in the gameplan surfaced and we reverted to kick-city.

That is the sad thing. A new gameplan is always going to take a while to come together. Look at Wales it took them most of last years six nations to get their current gameplan together and now look how their playing. the fact that it improved so drastically against France is proof that it was progressing. Had we stuck with that plan and stuck with Sexton I think it could have come together then. A better coach would have taken that risk. However thanks to Kidney's indecision we have digressed instead of progressing.

Patsy fyre

Are you having a laugh the guy is a genius!!

flutered

i still recon the coaches hands are partially tied, there is really not much difference in a lot of what o sullivan and now kidney is doing, look at the gatland, he he was doing much the same while here, then he took the boat from donlaoire to hollyhead, the sea air really changed his attitute.

Podge_irl

flutered wrote: »

i still recon the coaches hands are partially tied, there is really not much difference in a lot of what o sullivan and now kidney is doing, look at the gatland, he he was doing much the same while here, then he took the boat from donlaoire to hollyhead, the sea air really changed his attitute.

You mean Gatland who introduced 5 new caps against Scotland? The last time that kind of thing has been done. Gatland, who also oversaw the transition or Ireland from the terrible 90s to the beginning of the "golden" period.

There isn't much difference between what EOS and Kidney do because EOS and Kidney are exceptionally similar coaches in their philosophy. There were similar before Kidney took the job. I find the idea that people think Kidney's hands are tied laughable. Did they ever pay any attention to Kidney's tenure at Munster? He was exactly the same there.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

You mean Gatland who introduced 5 new caps against Scotland? The last time that kind of thing has been done. Gatland, who also oversaw the transition or Ireland from the terrible 90s to the beginning of the "golden" period.

eh, its a good job england doesn't normally put 50pts on us the week before to require such drastic changes.

gatland had some terrible results as well along the way. think a low point was the world cup in '99. can you imagine the uproar if the ireland team lost to one of the provinces on the way to this year's world cup like what happened then.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

eh, its a good job england doesn't normally put 50pts on us the week before to require such drastic changes.

gatland had some terrible results as well along the way. think a low point was the world cup in '99. can you imagine the uproar if the ireland team lost to one of the provinces on the way to this year's world cup like what happened then.

I don't disagree. But I'm just pointing out that Gatland was a world away from EOS/Kidney even though. He was a much poorer coach then he is now, but the fundamentals were there.

EOS and Kidney aren't similar because the IRFU force them to be. Kidney was conservative in selection long before he got the Ireland job.

leftleg

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Are you having a laugh the guy is a genius!!

yes its hilarious

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

eh, its a good job england doesn't normally put 50pts on us the week before to require such drastic changes.

gatland had some terrible results as well along the way. think a low point was the world cup in '99. can you imagine the uproar if the ireland team lost to one of the provinces on the way to this year's world cup like what happened then.

Gatlands hands really were tied. He didn't select the team that got rimmed out by England. He made a stand and dropped the old guard and a new era began for Ireland. It seems Kidney has replaced the blazers of yesteryear in his inertia. In 2001 we should have won a GS.

Patsy fyre wrote: »

Are you having a laugh the guy is a genius!!

At least the happy pills appear to be working.

WeeBushy

jm08 wrote: »

eh, its a good job england doesn't normally put 50pts on us the week before to require such drastic changes.

Can you imagine Kidney playing 5 new caps against Scotland if he were picking the team then? Not on your nelly.