Would you sack Kidney, yay, or nay ?

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it would mean a world class team. Two defeats of two worthy opponents.

I'd be expecting the usual comments in the event of a win nonetheless ("flukey", "bad thing for the team" etc etc).

so when we buck our current (2 year) trend of being brutal at rugby, and getting beaten left right and centre (bar two outlier results v England and Australia) we are suddenly on the path to righteousness?

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

so when we buck our current (2 year) trend of being brutal at rugby, and getting beaten left right and centre (bar two outlier results v England and Australia) we are suddenly on the path to righteousness?

You can't possibly say we've been brutal over the past 2 years, props to your excel skills and all. Lacklustre, frustrating at times, but hardly brutal.


On 'conservatism': (I do have a pain in my head sometimes with Kidneys bench policy...)
People asking for experimentation and rotation conveniently forget all the warm up games last summer (a dire period). I feel we're a lot closer than people think, and I think the team feel it from comments this week, no 2009 memorys can't sustain us but its a far less sensational episode in Irish rugby than what many other teams are going through.

JustinDee

Deleted User wrote: »

so when we buck our current (2 year) trend of being brutal at rugby, and getting beaten left right and centre (bar two outlier results v England and Australia) we are suddenly on the path to righteousness?

The first goal is wins and RWC ranking subsequent to that. Once this year's tasklist is completed, then take a look at the team and try things out.
Thats how I'd do it, at least. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose and all that. I believe in the quality of the players and judging by mood in camp, I can tell you that they are certainly very fired up and focused on the job in hand.

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it would mean a world class team. Two defeats of two worthy opponents.

I'd be expecting the usual comments in the event of a win nonetheless ("flukey", "bad thing for the team" etc etc).

If we lose the final 2 games playing dire rugby just like against Wales the victories against Italy and France would be fairly hollow. We don't need a win or two within a week. We need a string of performances over a longer period of time that lead to results. We can't continue to look at things one match at a time in isolation.

We had a bad 6 Nations last year but finished on a high note. We had a brutal RWC warm-up series. I felt absolutely ripped off having paid to go and see the games in Landsdowne (I paid for my dad to go and see the England game with me and the look on his face when he said he was glad he didn't pay said it all!). So much so I'm not forking out for anything this year for the first time in years. We had a fairly mediocre RWC with a single bright spot against the Aussies. We've started this 6 Nations in the same way we spent most of last years. These are relevant and incredibly important pieces of information that we must keep in mind for the next game and the game after that. We can't keep brushing it under the carpet in the hopes things will improve.

JustinDee

molloyjh wrote: »

If we lose the final 2 games playing dire rugby just like against Wales the victories against Italy and France would be fairly hollow. We don't need a win or two within a week. We need a string of performances over a longer period of time that lead to results. We can't continue to look at things one match at a time in isolation.

We had a bad 6 Nations last year but finished on a high note. We had a brutal RWC warm-up series. I felt absolutely ripped off having paid to go and see the games in Landsdowne (I paid for my dad to go and see the England game with me and the look on his face when he said he was glad he didn't pay said it all!). So much so I'm not forking out for anything this year for the first time in years. We had a fairly mediocre RWC with a single bright spot against the Aussies. We've started this 6 Nations in the same way we spent most of last years. These are relevant and incredibly important pieces of information that we must keep in mind for the next game and the game after that. We can't keep brushing it under the carpet in the hopes things will improve.

Nothing is being brushed under the proverbial carpet though.
Believe it or not, you'll be hard pressed to find any international team management out there that doesn't run its selections and match plan 'by the game'. This is a condensed international tournament that takes place over a short amount of time.

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

You can't possibly say we've been brutal over the past 2 years, props to your excel skills and all. Lacklustre, frustrating at times, but hardly brutal.

Why?

Did you observe Ireland at any time in the last 2 years playing rugby worthy of their parts? (bar the two occasions that I mentioned)

Did you see us limp across the line against the mighty Italians in 6N 2011? Repeat the process against Eddie's Eagles in RWC 2011?

Did you see us drop ball after ball after ball against the French?

Were you at Murrayfield for Richie Grayfest 2011 when we just about got through the test?

I have, and I was.

We have been so far the level that we should be playing at that it's not even funny.

I'm not being a critic because I think we are bad at rugby, I am being a critic because we should be so much better, because we are capable of so much better, and it doesn't take much more than a casual fan to realise that.

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

people think, and I think the team feel it from comments this week, no 2009 memorys can't sustain us but its a far less sensational episode in Irish rugby than what many other teams are going through.

clearly you haven't followed Munster, Leinster and Ulster's progress in the time period.

Irish rugby has rarely been stronger, Ireland's rugby has been dreadful in comparison.

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

Nothing is being brushed under the proverbial carpet though.
Believe it or not, you'll be hard pressed to find any international team management out there that doesn't run its selections and match plan 'by the game'. This is a condensed international tournament that takes place over a short amount of time.

Correct, and it's even more condensed now that we have four games in four weeks, which is all the more reason for a bit of rotation this weekend in what will probably be the easiest game of our year.

jacothelad

JustinDee wrote: »

When top RWC 2015 seedings are achieved then "experimentation" can take place.
Not before.

What do you think would be the IRFU's reaction if Ireland slithered further down the rankings to 10th or 11th? Would they take the Deccie b/s line, "Well, the lads are fuming and it's only right that they have another go etc...I didn't miss a pass nor drop a ball, it's down to the lads. They've been fair bubbling in training and we've talked about blah, blah, blah."

I agree completely with the thrust of what you are saying. I believe Ireland should put out it's strongest side in every competitive game against Tier One sides.

A once great 12 who is now clearly way past his best when there are other viable alternatives. Does he think Gordon is going to do what he hasn't for two seasons and suddenly regain his pace and step when he can't at a lower level.

Then there is his imo, bizarre experiment with an avowedly 'promising' but understandably naive, slow ball provider and inexperienced labourer at 9 coupled with a strange out half. A blind man with a cardboard box over his head could see that Ireland's best games have been when Sexton and Reddan play together.

Then we have more experimentation using a winger at 13. A winger who is a top try scorer at 11 but who has shown 9 times out of 10 that he is to the outside centre position what Graham Norton is to cage Fighting.

Then we have a once great, still serviceable but declining player in the second row? The rest of the team is fairly easy to select.

shuffol wrote: »

It seems to be an Irish thing to place a massive weighting on experience above all else but there comes a time when experience turns into predictability, I think we crossed that line a while ago.

It's a weak substitute for inventiveness. When you can't see a new way you cling on for dear life to what has served you in the past. It totally reflects the timidity of the coaches and you also have to remember that there are a lot of guys who are on the gravy train whose best interests are served by clawing away from defeat rather than embracing anything new. These are the same type who got rid of Jimmy Davidson, the coach who made Ulster great in the 80s. He tried to modernise Ireland and get them moving forward. He soon got the boot as his radical ideas included getting rid of the selectors and so by extension all there freebies and junkets. Even Eddie O was hamstrung by these guys. You just have to understand the way he had no room for taking a chance on new players as winning home games in the 6ns was the Holy Grail.

It's mainly fear. Kidney seems to be psychologically wedded to Munster players when he is in need. I can understand that to a point. He takes it a bit too far.

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Correct, and it's even more condensed now that we have four games in four weeks, which is all the more reason for a bit of rotation this weekend in what will probably be the easiest game of our year.

"Easiest" game??
I know you're being relative but how "easy" do you think this Italian team actually is?

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

Nothing is being brushed under the proverbial carpet though.
Believe it or not, you'll be hard pressed to find any international team management out there that doesn't run its selections and match plan 'by the game'. This is a condensed international tournament that takes place over a short amount of time.

I'd find it hard to believe that the game coming up is the only thing on their mind. Player form, general team form, particular plays and tactics that have proved successful in the recent past vs ones that haven't surely all come into the equation looking at both your team and your opposition? You can't make a decision on the game in isolation. It needs to be made with a certain level of knowledge over what has gone before, for both sides.

That said it would certainly seem that Kidney and co do make calls on a game in complete isolation. After all why revert to a kicking game against Wales that failed so miserably 12 months ago? They obviously thought this time last year a kicking game is a good idea against Wales. They then made the same decision this year despite it's utter failure the last time.

JustinDee

jacothelad wrote: »

What do you think would be the IRFU's reaction if Ireland slithered further down the rankings to 10th or 11th? Would they take the Deccie b/s line, "Well, the lads are fuming and it's only right that they have another go etc...I didn't miss a pass nor drop a ball, it's down to the lads. They've been fair bubbling in training and we've talked about blah, blah, blah."

It would be a little pre-emptive to go down the woe-betide-me route at this moment in time.

jacothelad wrote: »

I agree completely with the thrust of what you are saying. I believe Ireland should put out it's strongest side in every competitive game against Tier One sides.
So, why is Kidney experimenting with . . . etc

You disagree with the selectors' and their view of who is the best selection in each position. That's okay. It's normal.
Not everyone will agree when previous results don't follow up as hoped.

JustinDee

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd find it hard to believe that the game coming up is the only thing on their mind

Of course it is. You don't prep for an upcoming match with eyes on the next. Thats one of the reasons why France lost vs Italy last year. All the main talk in interviews was about the tournament closer vs Wales.

molloyjh

JustinDee wrote: »

It would be a little pre-emptive to go down the woe-betide-me route at this moment in time.

So you're allowed to ask the "what if we beat France" hypothetical, but it's pre-emptive to ask the 3rd tier seeding hypothetical????

JustinDee wrote: »

Of course it is. You don't prep for an upcoming match with eyes on the next. Thats one of the reasons why France lost vs Italy last year. All the main talk in interviews was about the tournament closer vs Wales.

Who said anything about the next match? Selective quoting won't help make your point for you. My very next sentence after that was talking about prior events (form etc) and everything about my post was about learning from the past. Nowhere do I mention future games. I suggest you address my actual point.

Justin, you are unflappable, it's pretty impressive if a little frustrating.

kudos

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

Why?
Did you observe Ireland at any time in the last 2 years playing rugby worthy of their parts? (bar the two occasions that I mentioned)
Did you see us limp across the line against the mighty Italians in 6N 2011? Repeat the process against Eddie's Eagles in RWC 2011?

I agree, if you take away our major victories, it is a litany of terrible losses / scraping through...
You know as well as I do that rugby union is not a game one team can play, outside of NZ very few teams put on shows against opposition who approach the game in a lock it down way, even up the odds / limit the score board.

I did (and do) see us struggle, the mighty Italians (you're not generally so disparaging about teams) beat those 3rd tier drudgers France weeks later.... they of the world cup finals they abso-bloody-lutely should have won fame.

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you see us drop ball after ball after ball against the French?
Were you at Murrayfield for Richie Grayfest 2011 when we just about got through the test?

I have, and I was.

We have been so far the level that we should be playing at that it's not even funny.

I'm not being a critic because I think we are bad at rugby, I am being a critic because we should be so much better, because we are capable of so much better, and it doesn't take much more than a casual fan to realise that.

Yes, I don't blame coaches for crocodile arms. I think Richie Gray is a standout lock, I think we are capable of better (inasmuch as any team is on any given day) but I also think rugby is far too random a game, and all teams in the 6 nations "golden generation" or no are far closer together than you're giving credit. I thought the gameplan against Wales lost if for us, but the gameplan against Oz and Italy in the WC won it for us.

My theory, I posted elsewhere i think, is that Irish rugby fans have been spoiled rotten by their clubs European performances and can't understand why similar groups of players turn it on AB-stylee against guys they smack down week in week out. A national team is made up of players, not clubs.
Club performance has zero corollary with country performance, never has had S14, Top14, Premiership etc. etc. Obviously, its easier to do well with quality players, but I dont think Irelands players as individuals are head and shoulders above any of their counterparts.

TLDR: Ireland are frustrating to watch last few seasons, but its not the end time. (Munster fans will tell you all about waiting for the horsemen!)

JustinDee

molloyjh wrote: »

So you're allowed to ask the "what if we beat France" hypothetical, but it's pre-emptive to ask the 3rd tier seeding hypothetical????

I'm not jumping around as if it is a dead certainty. The doomsayers are posting as if bottomed-out ranking is the death knell before a ball even gets kicked in the rest of the year.
There's the difference.

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

clearly you haven't followed Munster, Leinster and Ulster's progress in the time period.

Irish rugby has rarely been stronger, Ireland's rugby has been dreadful in comparison.

I have, its awesome, but I've also seen how good our competition are and I dont think its a game where each team does what it wants, you have to play the game the opposition dictate, the key to winning perhaps is dictating a game in turn to them, which perhaps Ireland haven't executed well on past seasons since (the now misty) days of 2009.

kevohmsford

There is no point in sacking Declan Kidney unless we have a better candidate to take charge. Kidney has done well over the last few years. The team is in transition with a few key players coming to the end of their careers.It is important to blood as many new players now though. The only thing is I do not agree with his selections sometimes but he has to live with his decisions.

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

My theory, I posted elsewhere i think, is that Irish rugby fans have been spoiled rotten by their clubs european performances and can't understand why similar groups of players turn it on AB-stylee against guys they smack down week in week out. A national team is made up of players, not clubs.
Club performance has zero corollary with country performance, never has had S14, Top14, Premiership etc. etc. Obviously, its easier to do well with quality players, but I dont think Irelands players as individuals are head and shoulders above any of their counterparts.

TLDR: Ireland are frustrating to watch last few seasons, but its not the end time. (Munster fans will tell you all about waiting for the horsemen!)

And I completely and totally disagree with your theory. Everyone always talks about the "step up" without any sort of solid logical reasoning. Why is it that Irish players cannot "step up" at International level, yet we expect Welsh, Scottish, Italian, English, French.... (need I go on), to do so?

Podge_irl

kevohmsford wrote: »

Kidney has done well over the last few years.

Based on?

His win record over the last few years is quite poor. EOS never led Ireland to successive 6N with only 3 wins. Short of beating France and England away Kidney is going to lead us to THREE.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

kevohmsford wrote: »

Kidney has done well over the last few years.

Based on?

His win record over the last few years is quite poor. EOS never led Ireland to successive 6N with only 3 wins. Short of beating France and England away Kidney is going to lead us to THREE.

If that happens there is no way hell keep his job. I highly doubt we'll lose to that England team in Twickers

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

And I completely and totally disagree with your theory. Everyone always talks about the "step up" without any sort of solid logical reasoning. Why is it that Irish players cannot "step up" at International level, yet we expect Welsh, Scottish, Italian, English, French.... (need I go on), to do so?

Thats the joke....They dont need to step up... to they are good enough.... but, and here is the thing, so is everyone else.

Who has dominated over the past 4 years of the teams you mention, apparently you have more, whos coaches have you admired?

I think expectations are waaay to high, hubristic levels. I dont think any manager in the world today would take Ireland to dramatically different (i.e. a bump of 2-3 wins a season, as that's what we're talking here)

Would some coaches have us playing nicer rugby? Perhaps. Would that assuage the fans, no, we have to play sexy and win big. We're not the Abs. Leinster are not the crusaders (though I reckon we're close No teams dominate like you are expecting.

Podge_irl

andrewdcs wrote: »

I think expectations are waaay to high, hubristic levels. I dont think any manager in the world today would take Ireland to dramatically different (i.e. a bump of 2-3 wins a season, as that's what we're talking here)

This is the first time in 6N history that Ireland went two 6N with only 3 wins (likely soon to be 3). At a time when the provinces are at their strongest for the last decade as well. I'd be perfectly happy going back to the level we were at 4 years ago (EOS' win record is about 10% better then Kidney's).

totallegend

JustinDee wrote: »

"Easiest" game??
I know you're being relative but how "easy" do you think this Italian team actually is?

Well Justin, I think beating Italy will be easier than beating Scotland, England, France and New Zealand. Are we playing Argentina in November? Yep, Italy will be easier than them too.

I expect a hard, physical match on Saturday but I cannot see how Italy can hope to win against us. They are like Ireland in the 1990s, tough, dogged but ultimately limited in the damage they can inflict on opponents and will lose against the superior team.

But thanks for asking.

Edit; Ireland are 1/14 to win this match with paddypower.com, I'm not alone in thinking we'll win handy enough.

andrewdcs

andrewdcs wrote: »

Thats the joke....They dont need to step up... to they are good enough.... but, and here is the thing, so is everyone else.

Who has dominated over the past 4 years of the teams you mention, apparently you have more, whos coaches have you admired?

I think expectations are waaay to high, hubristic levels. I dont think any manager in the world today would take Ireland to dramatically different (i.e. a bump of 2-3 wins a season, as that's what we're talking here)

Would some coaches have us playing nicer rugby? Perhaps. Would that assuage the fans, no, we have to play sexy and win big. We're not the Abs. Leinster are not the crusaders (though I reckon we're close No teams dominate like you are expecting.

I'm certainly not expecting dominance. I'm expecting us to be competitive. I'd be ok if not delighted if we played conservative boring rugby and were competitive, but we're not even doing that. We're playing scared rugby when we have players capable of much much more.

We have gotten it completely wrong for 2 years, and still we're persisting with the approach.

andrewdcs

Podge_irl wrote: »

This is the first time in 6N history that Ireland went two 6N with only 3 wins (likely soon to be 3). At a time when the provinces are at their strongest for the last decade as well. I'd be perfectly happy going back to the level we were at 4 years ago (EOS' win record is about 10% better then Kidney's).

So would I, like a 10% wins bump (its 2 games a season on balance of averages....) but I'd prefer Scotland and Wales and England and France and Italy became worse... then we'd win everything.

Do you get where I'm coming from? Ireland have their best crop of players in a while... Why do we all agree on this, becuase (no offense lads) we we s aich one tee for a long while. Simon Goehagan, Woody, etc. were heroes cos they score tries against England in losing. (FFS)

Not trying to be funny (ok... I am.) and this may come as a shock to some people.... Ireland are not the only team in the 6 nations. Other countries have been known to try to win matches, based on targeting home games etc. (Scotland, Italy... both of whom coulda / woulda / shoulda beaten England this season) We've had bad games and bad results, but the margins, the inches we need (to go Pachino) are all around us.

My thesis is that Kidney is the best coach we could have, we should expect no less, and that the team will find those inches.

Should we lose to Italy, or England or Scotland (France is a coin toss - lets not try to pretend we are something they are not and vise versa) it will be a very bad season. Should we beat France and win the home games, its a very good one with a strong sense of what if (2007 we had a slam in the bag... Vincent Clerc'd us)

Its all glory or death on the internets!

JustinDee

totallegend wrote: »

Well Justin, I think beating Italy will be easier than beating Scotland, England, France and New Zealand. Are we playing Argentina in November? Yep, Italy will be easier than them too.

I expect a hard, physical match on Saturday but I cannot see how Italy can hope to win against us. They are like Ireland in the 1990s, tough, dogged but ultimately limited in the damage they can inflict on opponents and will lose against the superior team.

But thanks for asking.

Edit; Ireland are 1/14 to win this match with paddypower.com, I'm not alone in thinking we'll win handy enough.

Have a trawl through the threads from last RWC and read the comments from people before the Italian game back then. The doom and gloom was hilarious.

I would expect Ireland to win on Saturday but thats because I know the team have it in them to bring out the performance to do so. Italy are most definitely not as poop as some would have us believe. We've seen already how they can pull a result in or almost grab it.

andrewdcs

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm certainly not expecting dominance. I'm expecting us to be competitive. I'd be ok if not delighted if we played conservative boring rugby and were competitive, but we're not even doing that. We're playing scared rugby when we have players capable of much much more.

We have gotten it completely wrong for 2 years, and still we're persisting with the approach.

Fair enough, personally, between grinding with a high win ratio (England or SA in their "pomp") vs a more "gallic" or dare I even think it Welsh flare, the later randomness is how I like my rugby, but there we are. We are neither past while (well... two games against our newest of old rivals).

I think we are competitive, and to massively overlabour my points, so are others and its an inches and centimetres kind of season, like any other. Last 2 seasons with 2 losses in the 6 nations and dismal warm ups not great, must do better, individual games of brilliance we were not favourites for: 2. History? A teeny bit. We need to make more of it. And also be waaaay more aggressive at the breakdown / tackle which was the foundation of our best moments we somehow forgot against Wales.

molloyjh

andrewdcs wrote: »

I did (and do) see us struggle, the mighty Italians (you're not generally so disparaging about teams) beat those 3rd tier drudgers France weeks later.... they of the world cup finals they abso-bloody-lutely should have won fame.

They also lost to Scotland and were hammered by England.

JustinDee wrote: »

I'm not jumping around as if it is a dead certainty. The doomsayers are posting as if bottomed-out ranking is the death knell before a ball even gets kicked in the rest of the year.
There's the difference.

Ah no one was saying that us dropping down to 9th or below was a certainty either. It was an extreme example to highlight a point. I can't see us falling below 8th but we shouldn't be there in the first place.