Everything Else Hip Hop

conor.hogan.2

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Tupacs topics to material ratio was out of proportion completely.

How so? Where are any of Biggies deep tracks? He released two full albums.

hellraiser, never be peace ,dear mama , baby don't cry , dopefiends diner ,pain, i aint mad at ya, ghetto ghospel, brendas got a baby, changes , until the end of time , staring at the world through my rearview , old school , smile , keep ya head up, unconditional love, Letter to my unborn, thugz mansion, trapped, life goes on.

I know very very few Biggie songs that have lyrics anywhere near any of these songs, and they are just 20.

(uplifting deep lyrics vs scarface in rap form pretty much sums up their two differing catalogues - I still like Biggie don't get me wrong)

Bobby Baccala

Alright i get it, you prefer pac and think he's a better lyricist, i disagree, some people will agree with me, some with you.

I've heard almost all of them songs and i still disagree with you on him being a better lyricist. Most of them songs show his superior story telling skills, that's not really what i mean by pac being the lesser lyricist. Dopefiends diner has to be one of the finest displays of story telling I have ever heard in a song. He's certainly better at painting a picture in your mind through the song but biggie just rhymes better imo. He just works words together so well, yeah biggie might seem repetitive to you but he has 2 albums, there isn't many topics you can cover in 2 albums.

We get into a "who's better" discussion about pac and biggie every month or so and it's always about a different aspect of their rapping too. We must have covered everything about them too. We'll also never come to a conclusion too.

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Ye if you like mainly one dimensional lyrics. I am not saying he was not a great rapper but I would struggle to put him in my top 10 but know most of his lyrics nonetheless.

It is like Blur to Oasis and Beatles to Stones I never understand how someone would pick Biggie, Blur or the Stones as a better artist in general.

im a big fan of both, i dont really have a favorite between them but what puts pac ahead of biggie for me is quantity but as far as quality biggie is right up there with him, he released a lot less material than pac and i personally think thats why most people give preference to pac overall as an artist.

ye pac has the passion in his music but as far as who is the actual better mc, its biggie all day everyday for me.

mufcboy1999

superior story telling skills

great point, very few if any can match pac when it comes to painting a picture with his music.

conor.hogan.2

Good points, and as you said I guess we have to agree to disagree.

But better storytelling comes through better lyrics. What you seem to be saying is that Biggie was better technically at rapping which is true I suppose but that is just the flow and how he fit his basic words together.

In that regard he is no better than other smooth rappers who have a great flow. Great flow with little substance is fine, I like Biggie but having a better flow does not make you better lyricist.

A better MC because he could technically rap better?

If that is the case for being a better rapper then Rakim smashes both of them.

Bobby Baccala

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Good points, and as you said I guess we have to agree to disagree.

But better storytelling comes through better lyrics. What you seem to be saying is that Biggie was better technically at rapping which is true I suppose but that is just the flow and how he fit his basic words together.

In that regard he is no better than other smooth rappers who have a great flow. Great flow with little substance is fine, I like Biggie but having a better flow does not make you better lyricist.

A better MC because he could technically rap better?

If that is the case for being a better rapper then Rakim smashes both of them.

Well tbh i would have said Rakim was better than the 2 of them hands down, he did the same things as them but earlier and better, I've watched a few rakim freestyles and they're phenomenal. Also a fairly good story teller too.

conor.hogan.2

It is a toss up for me personally between Rakim and 2pac, switches nearly every day between the 2 probably.

I think Biggie was a 2 trick pony tbh, his greatest hits only went Gold…. If he was still alive I don't know what he would be rapping about.

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is a toss up for me personally between Rakim and 2pac, switches nearly every day between the 2 probably.

I think Biggie was a 2 trick pony tbh, his greatest hits only went Gold…. If he was still alive I don't know what he would be rapping about.

possibly the same thing that the likes of jay z and nas are... the same could be said for pac man, its only a matter time before any rapper starts to sound recycled.

Bobby Baccala

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

It is a toss up for me personally between Rakim and 2pac, switches nearly every day between the 2 probably.

I think Biggie was a 2 trick pony tbh, his greatest hits only went Gold…. If he was still alive I don't know what he would be rapping about.

Greatest hits albums are usually poxy anyway, yeah it's between Rakim and cube for me. Yeah i know cube isn't the most technical rapper but he's the rapper that got me all into it.

Jimmy Iovine

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

great point, very few if any can match pac when it comes to painting a picture with his music.

Slick Rick is be better than him. Some of his songs on "The Great Adventures..." are magical.

IMO he's the best story-teller/painter of pictures with music in rap.

conor.hogan.2

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

possibly the same thing that the likes of jay z and nas are... the same could be said for pac man, its only a matter time before any rapper starts to sound recycled.

Maybe but I have listened to a lot of 2pac, it never gets old.

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Greatest hits albums are usually poxy anyway

I agree. But the point of it was to showcase the best of Biggie and considering half the album was not on either of his two main albums people did not like it. Like I said a two trick pony. 2 fantastic albums though nonetheless.

mufcboy1999

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

great point, very few if any can match pac when it comes to painting a picture with his music.

Slick Rick is be better than him. Some of his songs on "The Great Adventures..." are magical.

IMO he's the best story-teller/painter of pictures with music in rap.

Never really a huge fan of slick rick due to the fact i havnt really listined to that much if him only bits here and there but Ye a very valid comparison from what I heard and know of him.

@conor , but to me biggies stuff never gets old either ! The likes of Juicy are classics and will never die.

Juicy for me is one of the ultimate feel good hip hop songs, just epic.

Just because tupac is more diverse than biggie when it comes to the concepts behind his songs doesn't mean he would have been more relevant today.

Just look at jay z and nas, nas is the better all round mc and a lot more broad in his lryics but in all honestly was left in his wake by jay z the past decade in terms of relevance.

My point , your not sick of pacs music because most of it is classic material, pac and biggie wouldn't of been the top 2 rappers all their careers if they were alive, someone would of came along and knocked them of their perch having fans say they fell off and bla bla, it happens to just about every big rapper.

conor.hogan.2

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

@conor , but to me biggies stuff never gets old either ! The likes of Juicy are classics and will never die.

Juicy for me is one of the ultimate feel good hip hop songs, just epic.

Just because tupac is more diverse than biggie when it comes to the concepts behind his songs doesn't mean he would have been more relevant today.

Just look at jay z and nas, nas is the better all round mc and a lot more broad in his lryics but in all honestly was left in his wake by jay z the past decade in terms of relevance.

My point , your not sick of pacs music because most of it is classic material, pac and biggie wouldn't of been the top 2 rappers all their careers if they were alive, someone would of came along and knocked them of their perch having fans say they fell off and bla bla, it happens to just about every big rapper.

Oh beleive me I absolutely love "Juicy", it is a great song but the lyrics out of all his songs actually resonate with me so I especially like it.

But with 2pac they all resonate with me, he makes them resonate. He is a storyteller, but unlike Biggie he could tell a story other than his own.

I don't know what to make of the jay/nas point.

It is a well known fact that Hip-hop had a major set back when 2pac and Biggie died. So on the would they still be relevant point I beg to differ if and think if 2pac was around now he would be just as popular he would be rapping with Game, Kendrick and others. He inspired them, as did Biggie but like Rick Ross and others rapping about drugs, money and women gets old very fast and that is most of Biggies work.

2pac continually released new music after he was dead so he stayed relevent long long after he was killed if he was not killed he would have continued and continued and with his work rate, personality, knowledge and charisma he would not have run out of material any time soon.

mufcboy1999

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

@conor , but to me biggies stuff never gets old either ! The likes of Juicy are classics and will never die.

Juicy for me is one of the ultimate feel good hip hop songs, just epic.

Just because tupac is more diverse than biggie when it comes to the concepts behind his songs doesn't mean he would have been more relevant today.

Just look at jay z and nas, nas is the better all round mc and a lot more broad in his lryics but in all honestly was left in his wake by jay z the past decade in terms of relevance.

My point , your not sick of pacs music because most of it is classic material, pac and biggie wouldn't of been the top 2 rappers all their careers if they were alive, someone would of came along and knocked them of their perch having fans say they fell off and bla bla, it happens to just about every big rapper.

Oh beleive me I absolutely love "Juicy", it is a great song but the lyrics out of all his songs actually resonate with me so I especially like it.

But with 2pac they all resonate with me, he makes them resonate. He is a storyteller, but unlike Biggie he could tell a story other than his own.

I don't know what to make of the jay/nas point.

It is a well known fact that Hip-hop had a major set back when 2pac and Biggie died. So on the would they still be relevant point I beg to differ if and think if 2pac was around now he would be just as popular he would be rapping with Game, Kendrick and others. He inspired them, as did Biggie but like Rick Ross and others rapping about drugs, money and women gets old very fast and that is most of Biggies work.

2pac continually released new music after he was dead so he stayed relevent long long after he was killed if he was not killed he would have continued and continued and with his work rate, personality, knowledge and charisma he would not have run out of material any time soon.

I know exactly where your coming from in regards to the feeling you can relate to pacs lyrics more. That's simply because he wore his heart on his sleeve when it came to his music, pac would just say what was on his mind despite it sometimes getting him into trouble but that's what people loved him for, he was a very emotional rapper and I don't mean that in a bad way.

What we are seing is two very differnt kind of rappers tbh. Imo i think pac made music to change or impact the world while biggie more so just concentrated on making good music which in turn was never going to be as touching or emotional as pacs, I think biggie stuck to his roots in most of his songs which was the typical gritty NY gangsta hip hop sound.

But that doesn't make biggie any less of an mc in my eyes because at the end of the day he's a gangsta rapper with an unreal flow followed by incredible punch lines, pac as you said was a better story teller and had a real message he wanted to portray in his music resulting in some of the most powerful hip hop we will ever hear but that doesn't nesscarly mean he is a better mc than big.

I think if it came down to a freestyle battle between the 2 , biggie would wipe the floor with pac as I feel his flow and punch lines would be too much .

On jay z and nas , I just used that as an example of how 2 of hip hops biggest stars are blighted with shouts of them falling off , selling out etc etc, the same could of easily happened to pac and big if they kept making music , you know what they say the hardest part on anyone's career is too stay relevant somehow i could imigine if pac or big had Lil wayne, drake, chris brown etc fts
on their music people would be saying they have sold out or went commercial to stay relevant !.

@ mod ao just out of interest anychance of a poll to see who people think is the actual better mc 2pac or biggie? instead of rambling on about it...

Cheers

Jimmy Iovine

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

Never really a huge fan of slick rick due to the fact i havnt really listined to that much if him only bits here and there but Ye a very valid comparison from what I heard and know of him.

Listen to his debut album. It's a classic.

Children's Story, Teenage Love, Hey Young World and The Ruler's Back are all amazingly good.

The songs from that album have been sampled by KRS-One, Jigga, AZ, Bone Thugs, ODB, Ice Cube, Cunninlynguists, Black Star.

Easily one of the most influential albums of all time. It's the best story-telling album of all time imo.

mufcboy1999

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Listen to his debut album. It's a classic.

Children's Story, Teenage Love, Hey Young World and The Ruler's Back are all amazingly good.

The songs from that album have been sampled by KRS-One, Jigga, AZ, Bone Thugs, ODB, Ice Cube, Cunninlynguists, Black Star.

Easily one of the most influential albums of all time. It's the best story-telling album of all time imo.

il give it a blast alright, iv heard a few of the above. i love young world had that on constant replay a few months back.

nas's version from a few years ago too dont know if you have heard it, no where near as good as the original but still nice. possibley going to have a dre version on detox too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad_T3YSVecc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uz4wmM4CXA

Jimmy Iovine

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

il give it a blast alright, iv heard a few of the above. i love young world had that on constant replay a few months back.

nas's version from a few years ago too dont know if you have heard it, no where near as good as the original but still nice. possibley going to have a dre version on detox too.

I'm certain that I've heard those two before. Nas' is good but it's not a patch on the original.

The way Slick trades lines with himself in the beat is pure genius. He fits that song so perfectly.

Hope it's not on Detox. I think Dre would wreck it. If he took that beat 10 years ago I'd have more confidence. The only way it could be any good is if he brought back Slick and let him rap on his own :P.

Bobby Baccala

Slick Rick has to be the most sampled hip hop artist of all time. There's a ridiculous amount of songs I've heard where there's a slick rick line used somewhere in the song. It's usually in the hook somewhere.

I used to think Montel Jordan was actually decent until i realised how much he copys slick. "this is how we do it" is basically the same song as childrens story.

Jimmy Iovine

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

Slick Rick has to be the most sampled hip hop artist of all time. There's a ridiculous amount of songs I've heard where there's a slick rick line used somewhere in the song. It's usually in the hook somewhere.

I used to think Montel Jordan was actually decent until i realised how much he copys slick. "this is how we do it" is basically the same song as childrens story.

"La Di Da Di" has to be the most sampled song in history. I had a look here and it has been sampled 328 times.

The calibre of the people that are sampling it as well is amazing. DJ Shadow, Biggie, Ice Cube, Snoop etc. Just one listen to it and you can pick out so many different songs that you recognise.

In my top 5 most influential songs of all time anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icBflcYZhpo

Bobby Baccala

Such a simple yet absolutely excellent song. Slick sounds so young in it as well.

You wouldn't think that the same man rapping that song later got locked up for shooting people.

Jimmy Iovine

Hard to imagine that he was only 19/20 when he recorded it. He's one in a generation. They don't make them like him any more.

Don't forget he was the original king of bling as well. You can see him sweating just having the pieces on him.

mufcboy1999

drizzy drake has a second attetmpt of a freestyle with westwood without a blackberry in sight, cant help but feel this was rehearsed lol horrible by the way.

Bobby Baccala

What's the story with that high pitched shít he was doing at the end of his lines, a lot of that didn't rhyme and the whole freestyle had literally no meaning to it whatsoever.
That didn't surprise me at all.

conor.hogan.2

P4DDY2K11 wrote: »

What's the story with that high pitched shít he was doing at the end of his lines, a lot of that didn't rhyme and the whole freestyle had literally no meaning to it whatsoever.
That didn't surprise me at all.

I do not know, but what I do know is I hope Affion parodies it.

Jimmy Iovine

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I do not know, but what I do know is I hope Affion parodies it.

He has plenty of material to work with anyway.

I dunno why Drake didn't make this freestyle better when he clearly had all the time in the world to write it.

conor.hogan.2

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

He has plenty of material to work with anyway.

I dunno why Drake didn't make this freestyle better when he clearly had all the time in the world to write it.

It is nearly self-parodying.

Considering his songs I don't think he would be able to write a good "freestyle" given all the time in the world tbh. Freestyling is for rappers, proper rappers.

Jimmy Iovine

Rick Ross can legally keep his rap moniker.

He's just after winning a case originally filed by "Freeway" Ricky Ross over use of the name. The judge tossed out the case.

Won't be the last time we hear about this I'd say. Freeway is supposed to be making a movie of his life. At one stage he was worth $600 million dollars, all from drugs.

mufcboy1999

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

Rick Ross can legally keep his rap moniker.

He's just after winning a case originally filed by "Freeway" Ricky Ross over use of the name. The judge tossed out the case.

Won't be the last time we hear about this I'd say. Freeway is supposed to be making a movie of his life. At one stage he was worth $600 million dollars, all from drugs.

ye this has been going on a while now since freeway was released. Im siding with freeway not because of the name but the fact the fake ross rapped his whole lifestyle claiming he done this and that and actually turned out to be a former correction officer something you obvioulsy need a clean slate for with no convictions etc so its clearly evident he wasnt pushing keys like he says lol.

To me it is just taking the pis*, he put the final nail in gangsta raps coffin at least on the commercial front, he's a clown who makes the odd good song but still remains a very very average rapper. In all rick ross the rapper is the biggest fraud hip hop has seen thus far.

by the way theres a great documentary floating around the net somewhere of freeway ricky ross explaining his whole story, pretty good and interesting.

heres some of it, the rest is on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxUQJbsdX0E

Jimmy Iovine

mufcboy1999 wrote: »

ye this has been going on a while now since freeway was released. Im siding with freeway not because of the name but the fact the fake ross rapped his whole lifestyle claiming he done this and that and actually turned out to be a former correction officer something you obvioulsy need a clean slate for with no convictions etc so its clearly evident he wasnt pushing keys like he says lol.

To me it is just taking the pis*, he put the final nail in gangsta raps coffin at least on the commercial front, he's a clown who makes the odd good song but still remains a very very average rapper. In all rick ross the rapper is the biggest fraud hip hop has seen thus far.

I'll admit that he is the biggest fraud in hip hop. I can't help but admire him at the same time. He has somehow managed to overcome all the rumours and eventual uncovering. Since he was unveiled as being a fraud he has become even bigger. It doesn't say much for the paying public but he has done remarkably well.

He's definitely living up to his Teflon Don tag. I don't know anyone else that would be able to recover from having his mega-gangster image shattered by CO revelations.

He's still a fool. He had one or two decent songs years ago. He's ****e now though. That song he had with Drake was woeful. Nice beat but they wrecked it. The remixes by other artists were far better.

mufcboy1999

Jimmy Iovine wrote: »

I'll admit that he is the biggest fraud in hip hop. I can't help but admire him at the same time. He has somehow managed to overcome all the rumours and eventual uncovering. Since he was unveiled as being a fraud he has become even bigger. It doesn't say much for the paying public but he has done remarkably well.

He's definitely living up to his Teflon Don tag. I don't know anyone else that would be able to recover from having his mega-gangster image shattered by CO revelations.

He's still a fool. He had one or two decent songs years ago. He's ****e now though. That song he had with Drake was woeful. Nice beat but they wrecked it. The remixes by other artists were far better.

i dont admire him at all tbh, fair enough he has a few good songs but at the end of the day what big enough rapper doesnt? he still has a lot more bad than good though.

he's another one of those artists that has just stayed relevant through the features, there's nothing special about him as a rapper. he's a product of the industry and with the likes of drake and wayne constantly on his music, its no wonder he has stayed relevant. He was pretty much force fed to the public by def jam.

the final straw for me was when diddy compared him to biggie, the only thing he has in common with big was his weight. he's no teflon don just a clown who has seemed to convince himself he's a gangsta. If this was ten years ago he would of been black balled but hip hop has changed so much maybe thats why he is still here, most of the gangsta rappers who have him ft'd on their music are desperate to be relevant hence him being on their music.

i mean listen to this interview, he claims he got on the name rick ross 10 years ago lol aswell as keeping it 100 all the time, how he never liked authority when he was pretty much a cop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tHTRuTvkxc