More stupid in America..

SamHarris

nivekd wrote: »

You just give em hell, Sam!

I support you 100%...Sam is the man!

Cool.

If you cant beat them, join them - a corner stone of strategy. You should just skip to this step when your arguing with me next time though, saves me alot of time going through the basics.

Overheal

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So Ireland would have to have zero people in prison for me to point out that the the US has one of the worlds largest prison populations? That's just rubbish.

Anyway consider this.
....
So maybe the Irish do have a point when it comes to looking across the Atlantic with a critical eye when it's described as the land of the free.

I still fail to see what "The Land of the Free dur hur" has to do with advertisers pulling their sponsorships from a television program. It was a private business decision that they were in fact, free to accomplish. We aren't exactly having a discussion that relates to the actual conditions of Freedom in the United States.

Edit: Educational ranking

My goodness.

Out of 30 Countries that participate in that organization. I notice England has no ranking at all, does that mean they're all mentally impaired, or does it mean that a couple hundred countries are not part of those rankings and averages? I'm guessing the latter. I think you will require more citation before you can insinuate that the United States scores that poorly in education. Nobody here will claim they are the leaders in education, but your implication that the country on a whole is barely performing is quite a stretch of the imagination.

Also, your crime rates I have observed seem to be the result of poor record keeping, not superior tangible outlook. The Irish Culture is sadly rife with the idea that problems should be handled quietly or not at all. There's still a large stigma about reporting problems to the authorities. I would cite several years of PI threads worth of insight on this but that would be disrespectful of that forum's charter. If you like though I can delightfully pull up a few years of ridiculous legal sentencing threads seen right here in After Hours, or you could possibly just do a forum search for "Suspended Sentence" and make yourself comfortable?

RichieC wrote:

it's less than 5%.

As already pointed out to you, when you have google right at your fingertips why bother guesstimating?

Temptamperu wrote:

Considering they earn 7:25 minimum wage which is roughly about 6 euro they arent earning a lot and because they dont pay much tax there country is banckrupt and would collapse completely if the saudis and chinese pulled theyre resources out.

Minimum wage is relative to cost of living, so I'm not sure your argument holds any water.

Chuck Stone wrote:

Back up your opinion or accept the findings.

If you fancy I wouldn't mind doing a side by side comparison of your Freedom of Speech and mine. Might be academic.

RichieC wrote: »

okay now you're talking crazy. middle-class people in America need to have two wage households to maintain.

Are you talking crazy? Or did you just imply Middle-Income status in Ireland can be achieved on a single, minimum wage Irish income?

Chuck Stone wrote:

Your personal experience =/= to empirical data.

You seem to be very proud of these figures.

Can I point out the obvious to you, Mr. Chuck, from your own figures?

Ireland scores higher than the US on freedom rankings. [IE: 83.34 ; US: 81.96 ; Difference: 1.38]

On economic freedom too "although it's close." [IE: 78.7 ; US: 77.8 ; Difference: 0.9]

Ireland scores higher than the US in democracy rankings. [IE: 8.79 ; US: 8.18 ; Difference: 0.61] (Out of 10)

Ireland scores way higher than the US for press freedom [IE: 2.0 ; US: 6.75] (Out of 100)

Your editorial seems rather biasing. You say for example, that our economic freedom is close, even though it's not much closer than your cited freedom ranking. In fact in general, the numbers speak to both countries being very tightly grouped together, with the only exception being Press Freedom where there are more regulations I must assume. But further to that, the Reporters without Borders findings are Subjective, not Objective. What do I mean by this? A Psychiatric Diagnosis with Inkblots would be Subjective; whereas a diagnosis with the DSM-IV is Objective.

The survey asks questions about direct attacks on journalists and the media as well as other indirect sources of pressure against the free press. Reporters Without Borders is careful to note that the index only deals with press freedom, and does not measure the quality of journalism. Due to the nature of the survey's methodology based on individual perceptions, there are often wide contrasts in a country's ranking from year to year.

The Democracy Index as well among other things is not peer reviewed and there is not much documentation to support where the analysis came from. Meaning, the study is not exactly up to scientific criteria:

As described in the report, the democracy index is a kind of weighted average based on the answers of 60 questions, each one with either two or three permitted alternative answers. Most answers are "experts' assessments"; the report does not indicate what kinds of experts, nor their number, nor whether the experts are employees of the Economist Intelligence Unit or independent scholars, nor the nationalities of the experts. Some answers are provided by public-opinion surveys from the respective countries. In the case of countries for which survey results are missing, survey results for similar countries and expert assessments are used in order to fill in gaps.
The questions are distributed into the five categories enumerated above. Each answer is translated to a mark, either 0 or 1, or for the three-answer alternative questions, 0.5. With the exceptions mentioned below, seemingly, the sums are added within each category, multiplied by ten, and divided by the total number of questions within the category. There are a few modifying dependencies, which are explained much more precisely than the main rule procedures. In a few cases, an answer yielding zero for one question voids another question; e.g., if the elections for the national legislature and head of government are not considered free (question 1), then the next question, "Are elections... fair?" is not considered, but automatically marked zero. Likewise, there are a few questions considered so important that a low score on them yields a penalty on the total score sum for their respective categories, namely:

1. "Whether national elections are free and fair";
2. "The security of voters";
3. "The influence of foreign powers on government";
4. "The capability of the civil servants to implement policies".

The five category indices, which all are listed in the report, are then averaged to find the democracy index for a given country. Finally, the democracy index, rounded to one decimal, decides the classification of the country, as quoted:

1. Full democracies—scores of 8 to 10.
2. Flawed democracies—scores of 6 to 7.9.
3. Hybrid regimes—scores of 4 to 5.9.
4. Authoritarian regimes—scores below 4.

The report discusses other indices of democracy, as defined e.g. by Freedom House, and argues for some of the choices made by the team from the Economist Intelligence Unit. In this comparison, a higher emphasis has been put on the public opinion and attitudes, as measured by public surveys, but on the other hand, economic living standard has not been weighted as one criterion of democracy (as seemingly some other investigators have done). [3][4]
There is no indication that this report has been presented or is planned to be presented in any academic context, or has been checked by or will be checked by a peer review.

The economic freedom index:

Stefan Karlsson of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, challenged the usefulness of the index due to the fuzziness of many of the categories used to determine freedom.[18] John Miller, writing in Dollars & Sense, criticizes the Index for inappropriately weighted indicators for economic freedom and not taking into account the actions of governments to nurture business. According to him this leads to wealthy and/or conservative countries with barriers to trade placing high on the list, while poor and/or socialist countries with fewer restrictions on trade place low.[19] According to Left Business Observer, the Index has only a 33% statistical correlation with a standard measure of economic growth, GDP per capita.[20]

And lovingly all of these rebuttals are direct quotes from sources you provided.

Cheers.

So basically the whole thing is more or less decided the same way they decide who wins the fight when they decide to make a special edition comic of wolverine and spiderman duking it out. And even then I recall its been a draw a few times, what with spidey being quite nimble and wolverine being somewhat difficult to kill.

RichieC wrote:

When defending American excesses you are naturally on the high ground and don't need facts.

RichieC, you haven't offered one single fact on this thread that could be construed as an argument. How do you still have the cajones left to make hypocritical statements such as these?

Robdude wrote:

Ireland is a great place to live.
So is the United States.

I don't know why I can't go a week without seeing a bunch of people on this forum fighting over themselves to explain how the US sucks though.....

Overheal

Things like sinks with two faceuts (because that's cheaper) are unheard of in the US.

Well yeah! Seriously, what use is a faucet that dispenses ice cold water (sorry, Whater) and another that dispenses fiery magma death? One faucet where you can control how hot or cold the water is for me, thanks!!!

firefly08

Well yeah! Seriously, what use is a faucet that dispenses ice cold water (sorry, Whater) and another that dispenses fiery magma death? One faucet where you can control how hot or cold the water is for me, thanks!!!

Hah! Next you'll be wanting 2 political parties. Typical American extravagance!

Overheal

firefly08 wrote: »

Hah! Next you'll be wanting 2 political parties. Typical American extravagance!

Actually, now you've made my signature quote relevant: I actually want a non-partisan system.

Kind of how I like my faucets in fact, just one faucet where hot and cold can come together and compromise and do stuff, instead of relying on a red faucet and a blue faucet that dont seem to agree with eachother and fall on very different ends of the temperature spectrum.

Someone tell yer man that its called a tap....

Overheal

This is a tap.

This is a faucet.

Normally your head is buried under one after being buried under the other so I reckon the two aren't that unrelated.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

This is a tap.

This is a faucet.

Normally your head is buried under one after being buried under the other so I reckon the two aren't that unrelated.

Hey that's racist!!

At least in America they know how to deal with the slime that destroyed ours..

You had bankers and officials being taken out of buildings in handcuffs, looking at long prison sentences..

Bernie Madoff gets 9 thousand years in jail..



In Ireland?

Seanie Fitz gets a night in a cell after presenting himself at the local garda station (ah sher fair play to him right?)


Bertie is free to plot more evil doings in his secret lair of doom (The Cat and Cage in Drumcondra)



DONTCHA SEE!!???

He without sin cast the first stone - Wycleff Jean

Manic Moran

Overheal wrote: »

Well yeah! Seriously, what use is a faucet that dispenses ice cold water (sorry, Whater) and another that dispenses fiery magma death? One faucet where you can control how hot or cold the water is for me, thanks!!!

In fairness, I've grown quite used to the 'instant-hot' tap here. For those who don't know what one is, as I don't recall ever seeing one in Europe, it's basically a small water heater that keeps about a small kettle's worth of water at near boiling temperature at all times. Comes out of a different spout from the main water pipes, usually at one corner of the sink.

Means that five seconds after you put the tea into the cup, you have a nice, steaming cup of steeping tea, or your ramen noodles are cooking as soon as you put the water in, no microwave or kettle needed.

NTM

grenache

I gave up on America years ago. For the most part it's nothing more than a right wing conservative backwater. A place with incredibly archaic laws and even more archaic people.

Who needs health insurance, when you can carry a handgun? Always refreshing to see they have their priorities in order :rolleyes:

Eric Cartman

Unfortunatly america has its downsides like being the worlds bully boy police with all their wars, national security and surveilance.

But on the upside they do atleast allow people the freedom to own guns, have abortions, drive massive cars without huge penalties and have a secular school system - things Ireland cant offer and probably wont in my lifetime

And econOmically they have the righ idea, they dont just hand out welfare money to everybody, they make prisoners work and they have clear thinking candidates like ron paul to bea voice for capitalism

sandmanporto

Why all the American's are dumb sentiment? Ireland sounds like a very smart country?? Well its practically owned by germany now so dont laugh at america. The IMF is laughing at stupid ireland all the way to the bank

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, I've grown quite used to the 'instant-hot' tap here. For those who don't know what one is, as I don't recall ever seeing one in Europe, it's basically a small water heater that keeps about a small kettle's worth of water at near boiling temperature at all times. Comes out of a different spout from the main water pipes, usually at one corner of the sink.

Means that five seconds after you put the tea into the cup, you have a nice, steaming cup of steeping tea, or your ramen noodles are cooking as soon as you put the water in, no microwave or kettle needed.

NTM

Us plebs just use a Keurig

Ash.J.Williams

stupid irish can't even keep their country

Robdude

grenache wrote: »

I gave up on America years ago. For the most part it's nothing more than a right wing conservative backwater. A place with incredibly archaic laws and even more archaic people.

Who needs health insurance, when you can carry a handgun? Always refreshing to see they have their priorities in order :rolleyes:

I actually don't understand the health insurance thing....maybe someone could explain the differences. From what I've experienced...

When I was in the United States I paid for health insurance. It was pretty expensive (I paid $300 USD per month). I 'heard' how the US sucks for not having free health insurance.

When I came to Ireland, I was ready to get my free health insurance! Finally, something for all the taxes I pay, right?

Well, as it turns out, I still have private health insurance in Ireland. I guess the public insurance is so bad the company I work for doesn't even give you the option to not have private health insurance. The cost for insurance here is HIGHER than it was in the United States. At a glance, the coverage levels seem about the same.

So - I don't personally see any difference at all.

In the US - hospitals *can't* legally turn away someone who is in medical danger (which is why poor/illegals go straight to the emergency room for medical treatment). There are a ton of people without health insurance who get free medical care, paid for by the tax payers. My little sister has a child now, she's unemployed and single. She's recieved thousands of dollars in free medical health care, and so has her child. She literally has better (free) insurance than I had when working full-time and paying for insurance. From what I'm told, in Ireland it's pretty much the same and for anything non-life threatening, it's 'free' but you have to wait 10 years for the procedure?

And the laws on carrying guns aren't all that different in Ireland verse the United States. I lived in Chicago where it was illegal to conceal-carry; just like it is in Ireland. You can buy, own, and shoot a gun in the US and in Ireland.

SamHarris

Robdude wrote: »

I actually don't understand the health insurance thing....maybe someone could explain the differences. From what I've experienced...

When I was in the United States I paid for health insurance. It was pretty expensive (I paid $300 USD per month). I 'heard' how the US sucks for not having free health insurance.

When I came to Ireland, I was ready to get my free health insurance! Finally, something for all the taxes I pay, right?

Well, as it turns out, I still have private health insurance in Ireland. I guess the public insurance is so bad the company I work for doesn't even give you the option to not have private health insurance. The cost for insurance here is HIGHER than it was in the United States. At a glance, the coverage levels seem about the same.

So - I don't personally see any difference at all.

In the US - hospitals *can't* legally turn away someone who is in medical danger (which is why poor/illegals go straight to the emergency room for medical treatment). There are a ton of people without health insurance who get free medical care, paid for by the tax payers. My little sister has a child now, she's unemployed and single. She's recieved thousands of dollars in free medical health care, and so has her child. She literally has better (free) insurance than I had when working full-time and paying for insurance. From what I'm told, in Ireland it's pretty much the same and for anything non-life threatening, it's 'free' but you have to wait 10 years for the procedure?

And the laws on carrying guns aren't all that different in Ireland verse the United States. I lived in Chicago where it was illegal to conceal-carry; just like it is in Ireland. You can buy, own, and shoot a gun in the US and in Ireland.

I dont get it much either, if you dont have health insurance you are still treated, for free, you just have to go to specific clinics. Sound familiar? Indeed, if you have health insurance there (90% of people do) You get far higher standards of care, even than insured care here. I remember a friend going ther e to be treated for canced and as just an example he got an MRI every 1 week there, followed by a conusltation with his consultant to discuss progress. In Ireland he met hsi consultant once every 2 months, and had 1 MRI in 6 months of treatment. People hear American media and here about "poor healthcare" but it is all relative. If you are even middle class, never mind extremly wealthy, you the best care in the world there.

And yet, once again, to those that want it to be this is an example of american stupidity (?) or callousness (more understandable) rather than, as it could be seen and is to some extent, their dedication to personal responsibility.

People have the wrong idea as to what they are debating when healthcare arises in the states, and to what extent it is different. It is actually VERY similiar to Ireland and 82% of polled people there are happy with healthcare.

Also, healthcare is never free. In some places its just payed for by everyone. Insurance is MORE expensive here (for basic coverage) because governemnt intervention in an industry creates false supply and demand. It may be deemed worth it but the fact remains. The american government to spends massive amounts of money on medicaid and medicare, again inflating the price but with obvious benefits.

Eric Cartman

Robdude wrote: »

And the laws on carrying guns aren't all that different in Ireland verse the United States. I lived in Chicago where it was illegal to conceal-carry; just like it is in Ireland. You can buy, own, and shoot a gun in the US and in Ireland.

I know some states its still against the law but there are states that allow posession of automatic rifles, handguns in your car etc... which is not legal in Ireland

Manic Moran

Chicago is about as restrictive a place when it comes to firearms laws as you can get, it's not what I would consider a representative example of the US as a whole.

Eric Cartman

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=74

Missouri and Vermont know what the story is

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/22_Gen_4.html

Robdude

Manic Moran wrote: »

Chicago is about as restrictive a place when it comes to firearms laws as you can get, it's not what I would consider a representative example of the US as a whole.

Agreed - I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was saying that Ireland isn't more restrictive on guns than the US. Ireland does have tougher gun laws, no doubt.

But I wanted to say that the US *does* have laws regarding the carrying of guns and where you can legally do it. It's not like the movies depicting the wild west (although there is a lot more gun-related crime in the US from what I understand).

Still, in both places if you want to legally own a handgun you can do it.

EDIT: What I find really interesting is that things like stun-guns are illegal in Ireland. I'm sure there is a good rationale behind it, but I was suprirsed that they'd allow handguns but not less deadly items.

Eric Cartman

Robdude wrote: »

Agreed - I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was saying that Ireland isn't more restrictive on guns than the US. Ireland does have tougher gun laws, no doubt.

But I wanted to say that the US *does* have laws regarding the carrying of guns and where you can legally do it. It's not like the movies depicting the wild west (although there is a lot more gun-related crime in the US from what I understand).

Still, in both places if you want to legally own a handgun you can do it.

Missouri allows concealed carry, carry in vehicle and whatever you want on your land , nowhere near irelands laws, can you own a handgun in Ireland ?

Robdude

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Missouri allows concealed carry, carry in vehicle and whatever you want on your land , nowhere near irelands laws, can you own a handgun in Ireland ?

That's generally true, but there is a little more to it.

Missouri allows people with concealed carry licsenses to conceal carry. Not everyone can do it. Missouri residents who meet the requirements can apply for a licsense. They take pictures, collect finger prints, do a background check and require that you take an approved course on how to properly and safely carry a handgun.

Carrying in your vehcile generally doesn't need a licsense in any of the states I've heard of. Generally speaking that's just how people in the US transport anything. Most states do outline regulations for how you can carry it in a vehcile (unloaded for example is pretty universally required). Also, virtually every job I've heard of requires that employees do not carry on the job.

Even in Missouri, if you have your concealed carry licsense - you still can't.....

carry while intoxicated,
carry within any correctional facility, courthouse, government meetinging, government owned buildings, bars, airports, all schools (including colleges), child care facilities, casinos, amusement parks, churches, private property that states no guns, areans and stadiums, hoptials, and public transportation.

If you have been convicted of a felony, one or more misdemeanor offenses in the last five years, a dui within the last five years, dishonorably discharged from the us.....

Well, the list goes on quite a bit.

Again - I'm *not* saying that Ireland isn't more restrictive than this; it totally is. I just wasn't sure if people knew that when someone says 'X allows concealed carry' it doesn't mean that anyone can just pick up a gun and walk down the street. If this is common knowledge, then my apologies. I'm really not sure how much the average person in Ireland knows about the legal system in the US (lord knows they have enough laws)

firefly08

Missouri allows concealed carry, carry in vehicle and whatever you want on your land , nowhere near irelands laws, can you own a handgun in Ireland ?

You can own a handgun in Ireland but it is extremely limited. You can only own rimfire handguns, which are weak compared to typical "service" type guns (they use ammunition that most hunters would not consider suitable for anything bigger than a rabbit). You have to have the approval of the local supernintendo, fort-knox like security in your home, and be a member of an authorized club. Most guns have to modified from their original configuration to reduce capacity to 5 rounds. You have to provide a "valid reason" for owning the gun. Target shooting is the only "valid" reason. Which is strange - you can use a gun in self defence in Ireland. but you cannot buy, own or carry a gun for that lawful purpose.

In most US states self defence is considered a basic right, and the carrying of arms is merely a logical extension of that. It is a *lot* freer to Ireland in this regard.

Eric Cartman

firefly08 wrote: »

You can own a handgun in Ireland but it is extremely limited. You can only own rimfire handguns, which are weak compared to typical "service" type guns (they use ammunition that most hunters would not consider suitable for anything bigger than a rabbit). You have to have the approval of the local supernintendo, fort-knox like security in your home, and be a member of an authorized club. Most guns have to modified from their original configuration to reduce capacity to 5 rounds. You have to provide a "valid reason" for owning the gun. Target shooting is the only "valid" reason. Which is strange - you can use a gun in self defence in Ireland. but you cannot buy, own or carry a gun for that lawful purpose.

In most US states self defence is considered a basic right, and the carrying of arms is merely a logical extension of that. It is a *lot* freer to Ireland in this regard.

I dont agree with a lot of things the US do, but god damn their right on the mark with this one, the threat of a 9mm to the face would certainly curtail junkies ideas of entering your house at night

firefly08

I dont agree with a lot of things the US do, but god damn their right on the mark with this one, the threat of a 9mm to the face would certainly curtail junkies ideas of entering your house at night

Maybe...whether it does create a disincentive or not is often debated. There is a lot of crime over here. On the other hand, having the gun gives you options if they do break in. There is nothing about having a gun that compels you to use it. But when it comes to options, it's better to have them than not.

ed2hands

I love America!!


There's been some talk around here sometimes that those who criticize American foreign policy etc are somehow anti-American.
Don't believe that for a minute. I personally love a country that produced such fine people like William Blum, Noam Chomsky and Chuck D to name but a few.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PaoLy7PHwk

firefly08

There's been some talk around here sometimes that those who criticize American foreign policy etc are somehow anti-American.
Don't believe that for a minute.

Very true. Criticizing American foreign policy does not = anti-american.

It's the "all Americans are stupid" approach that we're arguing against here. Although frankly, it appears that we have won the argument. When the opposition starts quoting Wikipedia, you've pretty much won the argument.

-Peace!

Scanlas The 2nd

Well Americans seem to better understand that blitzing the rich with taxes to give to the "vulnerable" is a stupid idea. Don't think the Irish can get their heads around that idea. Maybe the Irish are a bit slow. You end up with people less willing to start up a business do less jobs available and worse economy. But the Irish just think that's mean.

ed2hands

firefly08 wrote: »

It's the "all Americans are stupid" approach that we're arguing against here. Although frankly, it appears that we have won the argument. When the opposition starts quoting Wikipedia, you've pretty much won the argument.

-Peace!

Nobody said all Americans are stupid. Did RichieC say that? Or anyone?
What has gone on here by SamHarris is the attacking of opinions people have never claimed in the first place. Which is stupid.