More stupid in America..

Solnskaya

SamHarris wrote: »

Ive been over this before. Google Anecdotal evidence. Really are you finding it this hard to keep up? If you dont even know this there is no point in me debating with you, perhaps you should sit a class on how to argue first.

Sorry to make you go over it again for us thickies down the back, Mr Harris Sir, sorry sir, your honour. Obviously, being Mr Harris, you are right. Sorry, once again. Oh, and btw, go and shoite, mr harris, sir.:)

SamHarris

Solnskaya wrote: »

Sorry to make you go over it again for us thickies down the back, Mr Harris Sir, sorry sir, your honour. Obviously, being Mr Harris, you are right. Sorry, once again. Oh, and btw, go and shoite, mr harris, sir.:)

Haha! Your pretty clever. Bet you have an IQ of 160.

Solnskaya

SamHarris wrote: »

Im done with you, your clearly a 16 year old.

Who is Im, is he your boss? And it's you're. Mr Harris, Sir. And I'm 40. Glad you are done, don't wipe it on the curtains.:)

SamHarris

Solnskaya wrote: »

Who is Im, is he your boss? And it's you're. Mr Harris, Sir. And I'm 40. Glad you are done, don't wipe it on the curtains.:)

You are actually 40? Wow. Im going to go ahead and assume you're still working in McDonalds.

You demonstrate perfectly my point that the people that hold these opinions are EXACTLY the same as the worst type of American you so desperatly wish to prove your superiority over. Like I said, Im not surprised it goes over your head at all either.

Solnskaya

SamHarris wrote: »

Haha! Your pretty clever. Bet you have an IQ of 160.

Haha, you're clever too.:rolleyes: And you know this will get me banned, but I feel you're worth it.:)

Solnskaya

SamHarris wrote: »

You are actually 40? Wow. Im going to go ahead and assume you're still working in McDonalds.

You demonstrate perfectly my point that the people that hold these opinions are EXACTLY the same as the worst type of American you so desperatly wish to prove your superiority over. Like I said, Im not surprised it goes over your head at all either.

Good man. Well said. Funnily enough, I am still working for McDonalds, but if you only knew. Quite a good client, actually.

SamHarris

Solnskaya wrote: »

Haha, you're clever too.:rolleyes: And you know this will get me banned, but I feel you're worth it.:)

I know, and I feel it's worth it too. Just one more example of the staggering intellectual caliber of those that hold these views. Did you get around to googling yet and realise how poorly constructed your "argument" was?

Solnskaya

SamHarris wrote: »

I know, and I feel it's worth it too. Just one more example of the staggering intellectual caliber of those that hold these views. Did you get around to googling yet and realise how poorly constructed your "argument" was?

Stepping into the territory of "you're a walter mitty Solnsakya", I had breakfast one day with an ex-CIA agent in Moira, NI - purely a chance encounter, and I was stunned at how smart he was. I mentioned that I was impressed by him, because I thought all Americans were thick, he rapidly disabused me of that opinion. He also disabused me of the idea that America was pure as the driven snow. Interesting guy, way more interesting than you come across Sam.:)

Arianna_26

Par for the course really. If you had watched the Republican debate a few weeks ago (when they were discussing foreign policy) you really wouldn't be all that surprised.

For a country that considers itself forward thinking and progressive it is so very backward. If something doesn't fit in with their agenda then they don't want to know, yes you can achieve things in America - so long as you play their game by their rules.

SamHarris

Solnskaya wrote: »

Good man. Well said. Funnily enough, I am still working for McDonalds, but if you only knew. Quite a good client, actually.

Yes I'm sure you are incredibly successful :rolleyes:. Nothing says professionalism like a complete inability to defend ones position and immediate recourse to anecdotal evidence.

Think of any ACTUAL ideas yet for freedoms we enjoy here and they dont there? Its been quite a while.

Don't worry, I have absolutly no doubt the only evidence others will have to argue their position is ad hominems (I'll give you some time to google that too) and vague personal stories to back up their strongly held convictions, just like you.

housetypeb

We can take a holiday in Cuba.

SamHarris

Solnskaya wrote: »

Stepping into the territory of "you're a walter mitty Solnsakya", I had breakfast one day with an ex-CIA agent in Moira, NI - purely a chance encounter, and I was stunned at how smart he was. I mentioned that I was impressed by him, because I thought all Americans were thick, he rapidly disabused me of that opinion. He also disabused me of the idea that America was pure as the driven snow. Interesting guy, way more interesting than you come across Sam.:)

Oh look a straw man! Really you are just running through every childish logical fallacy in the book. Please google it, and see if you can identify where you used it! Should keep you entertained for a few hours.

More anecdotes! Wow! You really are not very good at this are you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence you should probably give that a read before you hop back on your corporate jet.

Yes Im sure the CIA guy you met told you all kinds of stories from his days on the job

Fortunaly, most people dont have to meet an individual to no longer hold enormously childish opinions about various subjects. I am one of those people, thankfully.

Its lucky too - I was going to go meet a KGB agent recently to figure out if all Russians are clever or not and see EXACTLY what they got up to during their years in power. :rolleyes:

SamHarris

housetypeb wrote: »

We can take a holiday in Cuba.

You can do the same, its just more difficult. There are planes from Florida. 100000 visited last year apparantly.

My turn? Your right to freedom of speech is protected by the consitution in US. Therefore you can do Car-azy things like insult religion there. Ok! Your go now!

pbowenroe

to be fair, muslims are a pack of ****

mod: poster banned.

Arianna_26

pbowenroe wrote: »

to be fair, muslims are a pack of ****

Nice. :cool:

SamHarris

pbowenroe wrote: »

to be fair, muslims are a pack of ****

Dont say that! If you want to insult a groupthey must be white (mostly), christian (mostly) wealthy (mostly) and successful (mostly). Thats sticking it to the man! Otherwise your just generalising without any real evidence to support your opinions.

SamHarris

Arianna_26 wrote: »

For a country that considers itself forward thinking and progressive it is so very backward. If something doesn't fit in with their agenda then they don't want to know, yes you can achieve things in America - so long as you play their game by their rules.

Who is "their" rules? Is there some indication that the US government forced this?

Or is it one of those excellent leaps of logic where a small private group in a country of laws makes a private descision (right or wrong) and that this is an indication of some kind of massive tyranny, where its OUR way or the HIGH way? Rather than... you know... an indication of the opinion of that small group of people.

I'm begining to see why European universities fail so spectacularly in rankings against those in the US. The level of perception bias, logical fallacies and non sequitors every time anything to do with the US comes up is just staggering, these are the very BASIS of a sound opinion, and yet no one even seems to make a cursory effort to use them.

pbowenroe

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Nice. :cool:

cheers pal

Arianna_26

SamHarris wrote: »

Who is "their" rules? Is there some indication that the US government forced this?

Or is it one of those excellent leaps of logic where a small private group in a country of laws makes a private descision (right or wrong) and that this is an indication of some kind of massive tyranny, where its OUR way or the HIGH way? Rather than... you know... an indication of the opinion of that small group of people.

I'm begining to see why European universities fail so spectacularly in rankings against those in the US. The level of perception bias, logical fallacies and non sequitors every time anything to do with the US comes up is just staggering, these are the very BASIS of a sound opinion, and yet no one even seems to make a cursory effort to use them.

Yeah, that's right, we're all uneducated over here in Europe because some of us don't believe that the sun shines out of America.

'Their rules' for me are the rules created by those in power in America - once it was that white people had superiority over black people and now it seems to be that Christians have priority over Muslims and aspersions can be cast on the majority of Muslims due to the actions of a minority.

What about the basis of American opinion of Muslims? Is that not perception bias?

SamHarris

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Yeah, that's right we're all uneducated over here in Europe because some of us don't believe that the sun shines out of America.

Thats right thats exactly what I said! Wow, another, strawman? And right away too! Where did you say you were educated again?

Arianna_26 wrote: »

'Their rules' for me are the rules created by those in power in America - once it was that white people had superiority over black people and now it seems to be that Christians have priority over Muslims and aspersions can be cast on the majority of Muslims due to the actions of a minority.

So your ascerting that there are rules made that these people had to follow? Interesting. Could you show us the evidence for this massive conspiracy? Or, perhaps, you would like to admit it was probably a few private citizens that made a desiscion that reflected their priavte views? Hmmm... Occams razor anyone?

Arianna_26 wrote: »

What about the basis of American opinion of Muslims? Is that not perception bias?

Yes my position was that no one else practices perception bias, well done on comprehending a simple post. No, really though I never said anything of the sort. In FACT I said exactly the same thing as you if you read more carefully. Irish opinion of intelectual and cultural sense of superiority over Americans is based on far far less evidence that American dominance over Muslims. And yet one is taken without question, the other sneered at. I also pointed out that your anecdotal "American opinion of Muslims" is based ona false premise, that dislike of Muslims is an American problem. According to FACTUAL BASED EVIDENCE (see, I can USE that because my opinions are based on more than a meeting with an anonymous CIA agent in IL) it is much much more of a problem in Europe. Again, look at the link I posted 2 pages ago. Its really very easy.

Arianna_26

SamHarris wrote: »

Thats right thats exactly what I said! Wow, another, strawman? And right away too! Where did you say you were educated again?



So your ascerting that there are rules made that these people had to follow? Interesting. Could you show us the evidence for this massive conspiracy? Or, perhaps, you would like to admit it was probably a few private citizens that made a desiscion that reflected their priavte views? Hmmm... Occams razor anyone?



Yes my position was that no one else practices perception bias, well done on comprehending a simple post. No, really though I never said anything of the sort. In FACT I said exactly the same thing as you if you read more carefully. Irish opinion of intelectual and cultural sense of superiority over Americans is based on far far less evidence that American dominance over Muslims. And yet one is taken without question, the other sneered at. I also pointed out that your anecdotal "American opinion of Muslims" is based ona false premise, that dislike of Muslims is an American problem. According to FACTUAL BASED EVIDENCE (see, I can USE that because my opinions are based on more than a meeting with an anonymous CIA agent in IL) it is much much more of a problem in Europe. Again, look at the link I posted 2 pages ago. Its really very easy.

Wow, insulting much, I don't really care to debate this any further with you, you're incredibly smug and ignorant.

You really should try to debate sometime without feeling the need to tear the opposing person to shreds due to their differing opinion.

As for where I was educated? What the hell does that matter - I don't agree with you therefore I must be stupid? Or perhaps my university wasn't America-centric enough for you? They did teach us to think for ourselves.

Good luck over there, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

SamHarris

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Wow, insulting much, I don't really care to debate this any further with you, you're incredibly smug and ignorant.

Yes Im "ignorant". Its not that you have no evidence for your assertions :rolleyes: Good cover.

Arianna_26 wrote: »

You should really try to debate sometime without feeling the need to tear the person with differing opinions to shreds.

If someone holds the position that Americans are stupid based on nothing more than their dislike of them,my mother being american, I will tear their childish opinion to pieces and I will point out how their opinion reflects on them and their intelectual capacity. Why? Because it DOES. It shows an enormous immaturity to not recognise a people that are not only competitive in any measurable field, but entirelly dominant. If you dont want your opinion shown for the jealous whinning that this one so often is, then dont have that opinion.

Arianna_26 wrote: »

As for where I was educated? What the hell does that matter - I don't agree with you therefore I must be stupid?

Yes thats exactly what I said! I wont point out what fallacie this one is, Im sure you know by now.

No, you continually make basic logical errors and have very strong opinions with little or no evidence, THAT makes you LOOK stupid.Id be hard pressed to find a better definition. If your reasoning were more sound your opinion would be more easy to defend. That it is based on nothing but your own opinion is your own fault.

Arianna_26 wrote: »

Good luck in America, I'm sure you'll fit right in.

Who said I was in America? Im in Ireland, a nation I have always noticed is obsessed with their being "smarter" than Americans, to the point I had to argue with teachers in primary school for repeatedly saying it untill they found out my mother was from their. Ive come to realise that saying it repeatedly rather than proving it through actions and academic/ scientific success is basically all this particular group of Irish can do, because even they see how wrong they are when any measurable evidence is brought into play.

I think its time I pointed out to at least a few of these people the paper thin qualities of this "opinion" so many on this forum so proudly subscribe to (despite having no evidence for it other than their dislike of Americans). That the opinion looks so very stupid and you feel "torn to threads" after having its stupidity pointed out to you in no uncertain terms reflects much, much more on the quality of the opinion than on my methods in dismissing it. You should feel ashamed for being so blatantly childish.

Randomer.

Where are you from SamHarris?

You say people say these things about America because they are uneducated etc etc.

In my experience its usually the uneducated that love America and claim those that don't as anti American. & the educated, who are aware of the actual realities of America and not the hollywood version that are so highly critical.

But people don't criticise America out of hate. Imo it's ultimately out of fear.

It's an extremely powerful and influential country. And when it and its people do bad things or display horrible ignorance while proclaiming to be the beacon of light for humanity its pretty horrifying.

It's scary how ignorant a lot of American's appear to be. The ignorant are easily manipulated. How Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin and so on have such a following is shocking.

This is the country with the big guns and these are the opinions they have? Holy ****...

We would actually all love if America was the saviour of humanity it deems itself to be but unfortunately it keeps lying to us.

It's extremely important to criticise. For the sake of the world itself.

Arianna_26

SamHarris wrote: »

Who said I was in America? Im in Ireland, a nation I have always noticed is obsessed with their being "smarter" than Americans, to the point I had to argue with teachers in primary school for repeatedly saying it untill they found out my mother was from their. Ive come to realise that saying it repeatedly rather than proving it through actions and academic/ scientific success is basically all this particular group of Irish can do, because even they see how wrong they are when any measurable evidence is brought into play.

I think its time I pointed out to at least a few of these people the paper thin qualities of this "opinion" so many on this forum so proudly subscribe to (despite having no evidence for it other than their dislike of Americans). That the opinion looks so very stupid and you feel "torn to threads" after having its stupidity pointed out to you in no uncertain terms reflects much, much more on the quality of the opinion than on my methods in dismissing it. You should feel ashamed for being so blatantly childish.

Yes, I'm feeling very ashamed - ashamed for you that you are Irish but because your mother from America you have felt the need to tell us 'Irish' that we are wrong about America.

If you identify so much with America why not move there?

I remember in that Republican debate I mentioned earlier one of the candidates said they consider China a threat because it was a growing economic power.

I see a similar level of arrogance in this thread, a need to be the best otherwise the world is unstable. Yes, us Irish are completely ignorant and less educated than Americans, we don't understand anything and are incapable of forming arguments :rolleyes:

Arianna_26

Randomer. wrote: »

Where are you from SamHarris?

You say people say these things about America because they are uneducated etc etc.

In my experience its usually the uneducated that love America and claim those that don't as anti American. & the educated, who are aware of the actual realities of America and not the hollywood version that are so highly critical.

But people don't criticise America out of hate. Imo it's ultimately out of fear.

It's an extremely powerful and influential country. And when it and its people do bad things or display horrible ignorance while proclaiming to be the beacon of light for humanity its pretty horrifying.

It's scary how ignorant a lot of American's appear to be. The ignorant are easily manipulated. How Bill O'Reilly, Sarah Palin and so on have such a following is shocking.

This is the country with the big guns and these are the opinions they have? Holy ****...

We would actually all love if America was the saviour of humanity it deems itself to be but unfortunately it keeps lying to us.

It's extremely important to criticise.

Lot of good points in your post, just want to point out that when I think about America and what it does wrong, it doesn't involve fear, it involves a disbelief at just how arrogant a nation can be. They like to use propaganda to make other countries think that Russia and China are dangers to us and why? Because they rival America in certain ways and they would like them excluded or thought of with fear so that once again America can gain momentum.

If, as a country, you are more economically stable than America, you are a threat. If, as a country, you are capable of the same military power (or even just strong military power) as America, you are a a threat. They have, in effect, tried to set themselves up as the only country who is trustworthy of economic and military might - the Western saviours from Eastern savages. While in reality they are just better at 'spin' than other countries who are geographically further away from us.

Meanwhile, America has and continues to interfere in battles within countries with the sole interest of securing better deals for themselves in terms of oil etc. Of course they will hide behind the idea that they are looking out for human rights and freedom - yeah right, they really give a damn. It's all about pressing their advantage and gaining resources for themselves.

Another point is that they sign up to the UN but when push comes to shove they don't care what the UN has to say, they will go ahead with their own plans - case in point the invasion of Iraq where they overlooked the importance of gaining approval of the UN security council. How can we trust a country like that to have the best interests of the wider world at heart when it refuses to allows others input into its decision to invade another country?

Make no mistake, America is out for herself, Irish people helped build that country and yet we are denied green cards. Instead we get Obama coming over here thanking us for all we contributed.

Yeah we contributed - now we can fu*k off!

RichieC

SamHarris wrote: »

I think its time I pointed out to at least a few of these people the paper thin qualities of this "opinion" so many on this forum so proudly subscribe to (despite having no evidence for it other than their dislike of Americans). That the opinion looks so very stupid and you feel "torn to threads" after having its stupidity pointed out to you in no uncertain terms reflects much, much more on the quality of the opinion than on my methods in dismissing it. You should feel ashamed for being so blatantly childish.

You're really not doing as good a job here as you seem to be congratulating yourself about. But please, continue. It's good watching you attacking the posters rather than the topic at hand all while calling fallacies where you deem them to be. Calling peoples posts hearsay and rumour while knowing (by magic I presume) the motives of the posters.

It's hilarious, mate, keep it up, fair play to you.

Overheal

It's been a while since I saw a bonafide flame war.

Overheal

Arianna_26 wrote: »

You really should try to debate sometime without feeling the need to tear the opposing person to shreds due to their differing opinion.

You just told someone to Emigrate because their mother was a foreigner. Your argument is invalid.

Arianna_26

Overheal wrote: »

You just told someone to Emigrate because their mother was a foreigner. Your argument is invalid.

Thanks for that, are you going to contribute to the discussion or just tell us when we step over the line of acceptable argument-making you have clearly drawn?

I wasn't telling him to emigrate, my point was that he sounded like he really wanted to. And his mother being an American had nothing to do with me saying that.

So don't assume too much about the points I am making or my reasoning behind them.

(Had to laugh at the fact that it was the user with the quote from an american president as his signature who was pulling me up and telling me my argument was invalid though)

Overheal

Arianna_26 wrote: »

(Had to laugh at the fact that it was the user with the quote from an american president as his signature who was pulling me up and telling me my argument was invalid though)

Next you will make a quip about my 8-bit santa hat? I hardly see what my quote criticizing Partisan Politics has to do with this discussion.

Thanks for that, are you going to contribute to the discussion or just tell us when we step over the line of acceptable argument-making you have clearly drawn?

Indeed, I clearly draw a line at constructive criticism. This has long since degenerated from being classifiable as a 'discussion'. In a discussion, involved parties usually marry their entrant views with a certain degree of open-mindedness and humility which allows them to exercise critical thinking when presented with opposing views. So far however all I have taken note of are arguments that seem to unilaterally disregard the notion that the people of the united states are not a borg collective and that Palin and Evangelicals do not speak for all of us; not all Americans are oblivious to some of the more valid concerns about war mongering and all that such; not all police officers are the totalitarians that claims on this thread would otherwise have us believe; etc.

So yes I don't mind a flying f*ck stating personal abuse falls far below the line of what I consider reasonable argument-making.