Another EU referendum on the way

tonycascarino

A ''no'' from me. Germany/France/EU just don't get it do they.

hooradiation

Morlar wrote: »

I don't think you have to be a 'reactionary fuckhead' to disagree with your viewpoint on this issue. Any more than someone taking your stance would have to be a 'reactionary fuckhead' to begin with.

Anyone who's taken an immediate NO or YES stance either has access to information the rest of us don't or they are taking their imaginings as fact.
So yeah, reactionary fuckheads is the word.

Morlar wrote: »

I believe that pro-eu fanboys are using the excuse of 'we have not read the wording yet how can we possibly know how to vote ?'.

The fact that this is being seen as an "excuse" as opposed to a statement of fact is depressing.

Morlar wrote: »

The common sbelief is that if the eu can possibly find a way to avoid offering us a choice then that is exactly what they will do.

I have no time for argumentum ad populum.

Super-Rush

hooradiation wrote: »

Anyone who's taken an immediate NO or YES stance either has access to information the rest of us don't or they are taking their imaginings as fact.
So yeah, reactionary fuckheads is the word.



The fact that this is being seen as an "excuse" as opposed to a statement of fact is depressing.




I have no time for argumentum ad populum.

Turn the noise down a bit please.

Morlar

hooradiation wrote: »

Anyone who's taken an immediate NO or YES stance either has access to information the rest of us don't or they are taking their imaginings as fact.
So yeah, reactionary fuckheads is the word.

I have taken an immediate 'No' on the question of giving the EU more power and control over Irish soveirgn and financial affairs. Abso-fcuking-lutely.

hooradiation wrote: »

The fact that this is being seen as an "excuse" as opposed to a statement of fact is depressing.

I am sure you will get over it.

hooradiation wrote: »

I have no time for argumentum ad populum.

You are aware of where you are, yes ?

later12

professore wrote: »

Now that's sarcasm!

Not really. While I think many people are disenchanted with the EU at present, they realise that they are better in than out

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb75/eb75_publ_en.pdf

As in the previous survey, there are 22 Member States where a majority say that European membership is beneficial. This belief is particularly marked in Ireland (78%), Poland (73%), Luxembourg (73%), Slovakia (72%), and Denmark (70%). Conversely this is the minority view in four countries: the United Kingdom (35% versus 54%), Hungary (40% versus 49%), Greece (47% versus 50%), and Austria (44% versus 46%). In Latvia respondents are evenly divided (47% versus 47%).

62% of Europeans think of themselves as citizens of the EU, which is stable compared with the spring 2010 Eurobarometer (versus 36%, -1 point). More than a quarter responded ‘yes, definitely’ (23%), representing a two- point increase.

A feeling of European citizenship is particularly strong in Luxembourg (88%), Slovakia (79%), Finland (77%), Germany (73%), Malta (73%), Poland (72%) and Ireland (71%). It is a minority opinion in four Member States: the United Kingdom (41%), Greece (44%), Bulgaria (44%) and Latvia (48%).

A majority support ‘European economic and monetary union with a single currency, the euro’, but there has been a two-point fall in this (56% against
37%, +2)

and perhaps most importantly of all

There is majority support for economic and monetary union and the euro in 22 Member States. These are supported by a majority in the euro zone countries, although there has been a two-point drop (66%)

So no, I am not being sarcastic. I think the majority of jurisdictions would agree to a treaty change emphasising economic and monetary union. The survey also shows that 68% of Irish people are optimistic about the future of the European project, one of the highest results in the EU.

Morlar

later10 wrote: »

I think the majority of jurisdictions would agree to a treaty change emphasising economic and monetary union.

I'd be interested to see that happen in the form of simultaneous refferendums across europe.

later12

Morlar wrote: »

I'd be interested to see that happen in the form of simultaneous refferendums across europe.

http://i39.tinypic.com/mb0dvl.png

http://i43.tinypic.com/2i74r2w.png


Look at page 20 of this report
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb75/eb75_cri_en.pdf

When asked whether a stronger co-ordination of economic policy among EU member states and closer supervision by the EU was desirable, the *lowest agreement* was 56% in Estonia.

Respondents in all countries agreed that these steps were desirable by significant majorities, which if replicated on referendum day, would be a sweeping endorsement of a tighter union.

By the way, 83% of Irish respondents said they favoured closer supervision by the EU in bank rescues and the use of public money therein, and 79% supported a stronger co-ordination of economic and monetary policy.

Doc Ruby

Shenshen wrote: »

We took the money, and we spent it happily enough.
For us to go crying now that we're forced to pay back the debts we ran up, and to pretend that EU membership has lost its benefits, is childish.

foxyboxer wrote: »

The country borrowed the money and the country will have to pay it back. What's done is done. I have no debt either but if any savings i've made has been fruitless then we can dispense with protests as chaos will reign in Ireland.

Just to point out here the country didn't borrow money, it took on banking debts which weren't its own. If you want to know what the country actually thought of that particular stunt, look no further than the obliteration of FF and the Greens in the last election.

I was listening to Inda talking about the opening negotiations on the radio there, that man must have some Belgian in him with the amount of waffle he's coming out with.

I can see the need for eurozone bonds and some sort of a European Federal Reserve, but there's no need to harmonise tax rates in order to achieve that goal.

My worry is that a new treaty which requires a referendum means we're changing our own constitution yet again to cover someone else's blushes, and this will be capitalised on by Germany and France to remove our competitive advantages in attracting foreign investment. They don't need to harmonise with one another, they're the lenders.

Long story short, this means the peripheral states become client states, like Northern Ireland, eternally dependent on handouts from the centre. Its the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

I dunno, I feel as belligerent as anyone towards the big boys in Brussels who lent money to private banks, foisted those debts off on the Irish taxpayer, and trumpeted how they were doing us a great favour by lending us money towards paying back that money, while making a fine profit for themselves in the process.

But I'll wait and see what sort of amendments are proposed before coming to any decisions.

Morlar

later10 wrote: »

Look at page 20 of this report
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb75/eb75_cri_en.pdf

Let me re-phrase that.

Originally Posted by later10 View Post

I think the majority of jurisdictions would agree to a treaty change emphasising economic and monetary union.

I'd be interested to see that happen in the form of simultaneous refferendums across europe, rather than in the form of EU documents and EU reports/charts & graphs.

mikom

Doc Ruby wrote: »

I was listening to Inda talking about the opening negotiations on the radio there, that man must have some Belgian in him with the amount of waffle he's coming out with.

Dude is an absolute blowbag.

CuriousOne

mikom wrote: »

Dude is an absolute blowbag.

Yet for the past 8 months practically everyone on this site rushed to defend him when some poster or other stated the obvious.

mikom

CuriousOne wrote: »

Yet for the past 8 months practically everyone on this site rushed to defend him when some poster or other stated the obvious.

Don't I only know it.....

later12

Morlar wrote: »

I'd be interested to see that happen in the form of simultaneous refferendums across europe, rather than in the form of EU documents and EU reports/charts & graphs.

Oh for Heaven's sake.

You don't like the fact that Europeans (by a large majority in each member state) are in favour of greater union, so now you're claiming that the survey is a hoax?

Tefral

My own stance on this is ill wait to see what comes out of Fridays meeting.

If it involves handing over more of the control of our own Government to the EU then im voting NO whatever the cost.

The reason is because those fúckers made us take on the bank debt, they made us take on the EU/IMF loan to stop contagion to their own countries after they made us take on the debt, they are then taking a profit on the loans to us that they made us take on in the first place.

The EU does not have our nations interests at heart at the moment. Its all pointing to the United States of Europe where everyones budget will be determined in Brussels if we keep leaving them erode our little republic.

Im sick of Ireland being "the little nation that could" Our Sovereign debt was never a problem..

Its disgusting whats happening us at the moment.

CuriousOne

mikom wrote: »

Don't I only know it.....

The man is not equipped to lead a 21st Century classroom, let alone, a 21st Century democracy.

ThinkAboutIt

I'll be voting Yes for jobs.

pragmatic1

Motherfuk Europe.

later12

cronin_j wrote: »

If it involves handing over more of the control of our own Government to the EU then im voting NO..

Why? Because we're so good at managing out own financial affairs?

Lets face it, this economy only started to recover, and our unit labour costs only began to fall, and we only got our trade surplus back, and our bond values only started to rise, when the impact of the troika's reforms began to be felt at home and abroad.

You can't thank Inda and Co. for that.

I say give Brussels the whole damn lot.

The reason is because those fúckers made us take on the bank debt,

No they didn't.
The Government of Ireland were the party who decided to guarantee all financial institutions' liabilities in this state - all liabilities - and then extended that. That was about 2 years before the IMF-EU intervention.

Doc Ruby

later10 wrote: »

The Government of Ireland were the party who decided to guarantee all financial institutions' liabilities in this state - all liabilities - and then extended that. That was about 2 years before the IMF-EU intervention.

You mean FF decided that in a mad solo run. The people of Ireland made it clear what they thought of that decision at the next election. That was a political party acting against the interests of the country.

I for one don't feel at all comfortable ceding any more authority than absolutely neccessary to people who spent most of the last thousand years figuring out the best way to kill one another.

UglyBolloxFace

KerranJast wrote: »

There won't be a referendum. Nothing the EU can promise us will be worth giving up control of our corporate tax rates and budgets and the Govt know that which is why they're pushing for alternatives to treaty change.

Also the UK Govt are against treaty change too as it could force them into a referendum on the UK's continued membership of the EU.

Furthermore the proposed Financial transactions tax either won't happpen if the French and Germans insist on it being across the 27 (the UK will veto it affecting the City) or if it's Eurozone only it will just mean a flood of market movement to the City, the States and other markets to avoid the tax.

Debt restructuring and extending the debt loans to bailed out countries over a much longer of time like the reconstruction costs and reparations for WW2 is what's needed and the central EU Govts are slowly starting to drag their electorates towards understanding that.

Cordially,

Scofflaw

Fixed your post.

later12

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You mean FF decided that in a mad solo run.

Call them what you want: Fianna Fail/ The Government/ The cast of The Muppets...it wasn't the European institutions.

European leaders were shocked, and I don't think it's too far to go to say 'horrified' when they learned what the Irish government had done.

It simply was not the EU who took on bank liabilities for us. The Irish Government made that decision 2 years before the troika got here.

I for one don't feel at all comfortable ceding any more authority than absolutely neccessary to people who spent most of the last thousand years figuring out the best way to kill one another.

It isn't quite clear whether you're talking of non-Irish Europeans here or the Irish ourselves, being as we are a genetic strange, blood-spattered conglomeration of indigenous, Viking, Norman, Scot and English settlers.

Stinicker

I'll be voting No and even if the EU personally sent me a cheque for €1m to vote yes I'd still vote no.

Chips Lovell

Honest to god, the level of debate on this issue is just depressing. But what's even more disheartening is the denial most people seem to be in. Rather than accept responsibility for the crap we landed ourselves in as a nation, we're still looking for someone to blame. And there appears to be a very real risk that in doing that, we'll cut off our noses to spite our faces.

Doc Ruby

later10 wrote: »

It simply was not the EU who took on bank liabilities for us. The Irish Government made that decision 2 years before the troika got here.

Its still wrong to say that we as a nation borrowed the money and deserve everything we get. Everyone was horrified at what they did, none more than the people of Ireland.

later10 wrote: »

It isn't quite clear whether you're talking of non-Irish Europeans here or the Irish ourselves, being as we are a genetic strange, blood-spattered conglomeration of indigenous, Viking, Norman, Scot and English settlers.

Well, lets just say Europe has a long and recent history of people who wanted to rule the roost come what may, and I don't think that attitude has vanished in a puff of comaraderie over the last few years. It makes me wary and cautious.

Mr Benevolent

Fuck that, I voted Yes the last couple of times, they're getting no more out of me, the lying bastards.

My name is URL

Stinicker wrote: »

I'll be voting No and even if the EU personally sent me a cheque for €1m to vote yes I'd still vote no.

Seriously? I'd vote Yes for €50, and help out with the campaign for €500.

I've stopped caring about where Europe is heading, and where Ireland fits in with any of it.

All there seems to be now are 2 diametrically and ideologically opposed extremes.

Those who think that they can't survive without Europe (weak minded fools), and those that see being part of it as something which ensures the death of the country (paranoid fools)

To hell with other people's futures, it's time everyone just looked out for themselves. Like the people that will end up in charge no matter what direction we go in, do.

sensibleken

later10 wrote: »

Why? Because we're so good at managing out own financial affairs?

Lets face it, this economy only started to recover, and our unit labour costs only began to fall, and we only got our trade surplus back, and our bond values only started to rise, when the impact of the troika's reforms began to be felt at home and abroad.

You can't thank Inda and Co. for that.

I say give Brussels the whole damn lot.

.

thats not an arguement. The EU is not good at managing it debt either. people argue that we cant run our financial affairs so teh advocate closer ties to greece, italy, portugal etc, people call our politicians crap, then advocate closer ties with countries who repeatedly elect berlusconi. integration is not just with france or germany

tonycascarino

Morlar wrote: »

I have taken an immediate 'No' on the question of giving the EU more power and control over Irish soveirgn and financial affairs. Abso-fcuking-lutely.

..and that's the bottom line

mikom

My name is URL wrote: »

Like the people that will end up in charge no matter what direction we go in, do.

They may well end up in charge no matter what.
But how much power do you want to give them, that's the question.

Seachmall

Stinicker wrote: »

I'll be voting No and even if the EU personally sent me a cheque for €1m to vote yes I'd still vote no.

Then you, sir, are an idiot.

You'd get like 2 or 3 mars bars for that come the referendum!!