Another EU referendum on the way

TheZohanS

sensibleken wrote: »

whats that from? because the letter was talking about base, everyone else is talking about the rate of 12.5%.

besides doesnt mean its going to be in the treaty. as i sadi, lets wait for the question before answering it

From the BBC and Van Rompuy.

From the ET:

BRUSSELS: Potentially explosive EU treaty change takes centre stage at an EU summit opening on Thursday as Europe's power couple Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy push to throw a fiscal strait-jacket on the eurozone.

The French-German demand for a rewrite of the European Union rulebook, which history has shown to be a long and politically dangerous road, aims to enshrine tough rules ensuring budgetary rigour across the 17 nations sharing the euro.

Nations agree tighter rules and better policing can help overcome the debt crisis in the long term, but are sharply divided over how to implement change and how far to go.

Why treaty change?

Because Berlin wants it. As one European diplomat put it: "The Germans fundamentally feel they were wronged by agreeing to replace the deutsche mark with the euro because member nations failed to respect the rules of the game demanding budgetary discipline in return." Given the failure of the initial and loosely-implemented Stability and Growth Pact governing the single currency, which France and Germany were the first to flout in 2004, Merkel is now calling for a "fiscal union" carving rules in stone that would be legally binding.

What changes are under consideration?

Germany had wanted the European Court of Justice to have the authority to sanction repeated budget offenders, but France was cool to that idea. So the suggestion is for the court to verify states meet the obligation of introducing a so-called "golden rule" into their legislation, requiring a balanced budget.

This way, eurozone debt levels could be brought back within a fixed threshold. Sanctions would be automatic and immediate and Brussels could be given guardianship of countries in dire straits. Special powers too could be conferred on a European commissioner to step in and intervene directly in national budgets when deemed necessary.

Are all the changes about tightening fiscal discipline?

No. EU president Herman Van Rompuy wants to also improve economic policy convergence in the 17-nation eurozone on issues such as tax, which Ireland is expected to resist to safeguard its cheaper corporate tax. With national interests and political stakes at play, others may demand a quid pro quo, notably Britain which has already threatened to scupper a deal failing EU pledges to protect the country's profitable financial sector.

How can the treaty be changed?

How to change the EU's rule-book is highly contentious. Because of a widening rift between the 17 eurozone nations and the 10 states outside the single currency, the European Commission wants treaty change to be submitted to the entire 27 to avoid deepening the chasm.

But the leaders will be asked to consider a change affecting only eurozone countries, as treaty change requires ratification by unanimous vote. This is when non-euro members, such as British Prime Minister David Cameron, may be tempted to ask for a pay-back. Under pressure from eurosceptics in his Conservative party, he could even ask to repatriate powers touching on labour laws and financial regulation to London.

c_man

I seriously doubt any EU referendum will pass in Ireland for a very long time.

sensibleken

TheZohan wrote: »

From the BBC and Van Rompuy.

From the ET:

It doesnt say anything about base or rate. the negotiations have only just started, we dont know whats going to be in any treaty if one is even proposed. nobody knows whats going to be in a treaty that hasnt been written yet

KerranJast

As one European diplomat put it: "The Germans fundamentally feel they were wronged by agreeing to replace the deutsche mark with the euro because member nations failed to respect the rules of the game demanding budgetary discipline in return."

Yeah those delinquent member nations like...France and Germany, and those irresponsible banks spraying cheap cash around like confetti based in those inattentive countries...France and Germany :rolleyes:

TheZohanS

sensibleken wrote: »

It doesnt say anything about base or rate. the negotiations have only just started, we dont know whats going to be in any treaty if one is even proposed. nobody knows whats going to be in a treaty that hasnt been written yet

Jacques Myard, a French MP and member of President Sarkozy's ruling UMP party, has said French people feel very strongly about the issue.

"How is it that we are helping, for instance Ireland, that they are getting from Brussels our money.

"Some people say 'Okay, we help you, but you also have to help yourself by raising your own taxes and not having a kind of advantage which is unfair competition to our enterprise'."

Source.

(RTTNews) - In a joint letter sent to European Council President Herman Van Rompuy on the eve of a key European Union summit, the leaders of France and Germany have proposed common corporate and financial transaction taxes for eurozone countries.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel called for "strengthening growth through competitiveness and convergence of the economic policies of at least the 17 eurozone member states."

The letter calls for "a new common legal framework fully compatible with the internal market to allow for faster progress in specific areas."

The framework should cover financial regulation, the labor market, convergence and harmonization of the corporation tax base and introduction of a financial transaction tax, policies that support growth and a better use of European funds within the eurozone.

The proposed tax policy is not expected to be well received by all the member states. France has long complained about Ireland's low corporation tax rate of 12.5%, while the UK has been resisting moves towards tax harmonization in the 27-nation bloc.

Well I can tell you one thing, this new treaty isn't going to be about the shape of bananas. Anyone that thinks this isn't going to be about Corporation Tax is living in cuckoo land.

sensibleken

TheZohan wrote: »

Source.



Well I can tell you one thing, this new treaty isn't going to be about the shape of bananas. Anyone that thinks this isn't going to be about Corporation Tax is living in cuckoo land.

It might be, it might not be. But making your mind up before you know what the question is is frankly retarded.

TheZohanS

sensibleken wrote: »

It might be, it might not be. But making your mind up before you know what the question is is frankly retarded.

Not as retarded as living in denial.

Shenshen

sensibleken wrote: »

Yay! lets make up our mind before we know what the question is!

It's what most people seem to have done last time, since so many of them complain about having been asked to vote about the same thing twice...

Shattered Dreamer

sensibleken wrote: »

yes i do. and i see 2 countries that are going to have to bargain with 25 other ones and come out with something to propose that has a chance of success.

2 countries bargaining with the other 25? Clearly you missed something called the Lisbon Treaty. One of the biggest changes was the voting power each country has. France & Germany post Lisbon have 29 votes each. Through recent bullying tactic by both Nicolas Sarkozy & Angela Merkel, Italy & Greece have new leaders with ties to the European Central Bank. That's 29 more votes from Italy & 12 more from Greece. So for starters they already control 99 votes within the Parliament. Country like Spain & Portugal who are becoming increasingly weaker economically are obviously going to vote with France & Germany to avoid recession. That's a further 27 from Spain & 12 from Portugal. So that is for starters a total potential voting power for starters of 138 votes. With so much support for starters new member states are likely to follow & since most of EU member state economies are in a state of flux any measure they're told could strengthen their economies they're likely to follow.

Open your eyes there is nothing democratic about the EU. Everything that has happened with it recently has been the brain child of France & Germany. I don't see how rationally you or anybody for that matter could think voting away any more of our sovereignty is a good idea. As far as the worlds markets are concerned the Euro is a sinking ship. If you can't see it you need to lay off the EU & Irish government's kool aid

Robbo

TheZohan wrote: »

Source.



Well I can tell you one thing, this new treaty isn't going to be about the shape of bananas. Anyone that thinks this isn't going to be about Corporation Tax is living in cuckoo land.

You might have had a point, right up until you trotted out the Straight Banana Euromyth, it's one I don't care an emulsified high-fat offal tube for.

COYW

c_man wrote: »

I seriously doubt any EU referendum will pass in Ireland for a very long time.

So, if the EU offer a 50% cut on the money to be paid back, people will not pass it?

Shattered Dreamer

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-05/s-p-said-to-place-all-17-euro-nations-on-downgrade-watch-over-debt-crisis.html

In case you think I'm blowing smoke:rolleyes: They will abandon the Euro if it drives up the cost of lending to every EU member state.

sensibleken

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

2 countries bargaining with the other 25? Clearly you missed something called the Lisbon Treaty. One of the biggest changes was the voting power each country has. France & Germany post Lisbon have 29 votes each. Through recent bullying tactic by both Nicolas Sarkozy & Angela Merkel, Italy & Greece have new leaders with ties to the European Central Bank. That's 29 more votes from Italy & 12 more from Greece. So for starters they already control 99 votes within the Parliament. Country like Spain & Portugal who are becoming increasingly weaker economically are obviously going to vote with France & Germany to avoid recession. That's a further 27 from Spain & 12 from Portugal. So that is for starters a total potential voting power for starters of 138 votes. With so much support for starters new member states are likely to follow & since most of EU member state economies are in a state of flux any measure they're told could strengthen their economies they're likely to follow.

Open your eyes there is nothing democratic about the EU. Everything that has happened with it recently has been the brain child of France & Germany. I don't see how rationally you or anybody for that matter could think voting away any more of our sovereignty is a good idea. As far as the worlds markets are concerned the Euro is a sinking ship. If you can't see it you need to lay off the EU & Irish government's kool aid

I think you have missed the part about QMV not covering issues like taxation but rather retaining neccesary unanimity at the council

Shenshen

TheZohan wrote: »

Well I can tell you one thing, this new treaty isn't going to be about the shape of bananas. Anyone that thinks this isn't going to be about Corporation Tax is living in cuckoo land.

Why not just wait and see what it actually IS going to be about before deciding how you're going to vote?
Or is that a cloud-cuckoo land attitude as well?

foxyboxer

Corporation Tax.

Why do I pay 21% tax and a high earner pays 40% and a Corporation only pays 12.5%?

Boot on the other foot? Maybe they have a point?

sensibleken

TheZohan wrote: »

Not as retarded as living in denial.

well while your at it can you tell me when we're having it so i can plan my holidays around it. some lotto numbers would be good too

RichieC

foxyboxer wrote: »

Corporation Tax.

Why do I pay 21% tax and a high earner pays 40% and a Corporation only pays 12.5%?

Boot on the other foot? Maybe they have a point?

Because it attracts foreign corporations who provide employment.

force eleven

Lucinda Creighton will be the Dick Roche of this campaign. Better looking admittedly, but will help the No vote tremendously. Bring.It.On.

Robbo

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

2 countries bargaining with the other 25? Clearly you missed something called the Lisbon Treaty. One of the biggest changes was the voting power each country has. France & Germany post Lisbon have 29 votes each. Through recent bullying tactic by both Nicolas Sarkozy & Angela Merkel, Italy & Greece have new leaders with ties to the European Central Bank. That's 29 more votes from Italy & 12 more from Greece. So for starters they already control 99 votes within the Parliament. Country like Spain & Portugal who are becoming increasingly weaker economically are obviously going to vote with France & Germany to avoid recession. That's a further 27 from Spain & 12 from Portugal. So that is for starters a total potential voting power for starters of 138 votes. With so much support for starters new member states are likely to follow & since most of EU member state economies are in a state of flux any measure they're told could strengthen their economies they're likely to follow.

Open your eyes there is nothing democratic about the EU. Everything that has happened with it recently has been the brain child of France & Germany. I don't see how rationally you or anybody for that matter could think voting away any more of our sovereignty is a good idea. As far as the worlds markets are concerned the Euro is a sinking ship. If you can't see it you need to lay off the EU & Irish government's kool aid

Source please.

My understanding of QMV under both the transitional arrangement and the full-on post-Lisbon system is at odds with yours. For a start, blocking minorities are easily formed with 4 (I think) countries needed to veto just about everything.

shedweller

But if it is about corporation tax then we are more or less agreed on a no vote! What else could it be about?

Shattered Dreamer

sensibleken wrote: »

I think you have missed the part about QMV not covering issues like taxation but rather retaining neccesary unanimity at the council

It doesn't matter whether or not QMV covers taxation directly. France & Germany could propose economic sanctions on Ireland if we do no increase our Corporation Tax. Economic sanctions on country are covered by QMV.

sensibleken

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether or not QMV covers taxation directly. France & Germany could propose economic sanctions on Ireland if we do no increase our Corporation Tax. Economic sanctions on country are covered by QMV.

then why have a new treaty?

zenno

The Irish people will be frightened into voting yes for this treaty with more lies, this will be the case over and over again.

foxyboxer

RichieC wrote: »

Because it attracts foreign corporations who provide employment.

We can barely contain the droves of them coming in :pac:
Lot's of people are out of work.

If debt reparations are reduced by say €20 billion tomorrow (haircuts all round) and the payment period is extended, then would the government be willing to budge on the sacred cow that is corporation tax?

If they accept terms and a new corporation tax then we'll cry "You promised us on corporation tax during the election campaign", if they stand firm on c tax then we'll cry "We could have gotten back on our feet with a deal!".

Shattered Dreamer

sensibleken wrote: »

then why have a new treaty?

To be able to handle Taxation directly in Brussels why else? It is easier to compel members states to do something under EU Law then force them through sanction

TheZohanS

sensibleken wrote: »

well while your at it can you tell me when we're having it so i can plan my holidays around it. some lotto numbers would be good too

We'll soon find out, I'll bookmark this thread so it can be revisited when the treaty is proposed.

As for the lotto numbers, comparing the likelihood of guessing the lotto numbers with what the future treaty will contain is, quite frankly, nonsensical. It's blatantly obvious what Germany and France want, they've been talking about it ad nauseum since the crisis began.

RichieC

foxyboxer wrote: »

We can barely contain the droves of them coming in :pac:
Lot's of people are out of work?

it worked for a while, I wont argue the pros and cons because I'm not up on it much, but at one point we had dell, microsoft, intel, google, ebay and a **** load of pharmaceutical businesses here, probably a lot more, there's still an awful lot of jobs depending on the multinationals still here.

they were all attracted by our low corpo tax and well educated workforce, with the way the gov is going now we'll only have the low corpo tax to brag about

Oh_Noes

force eleven wrote: »

Lucinda Creighton will be the Dick Roche of this campaign. Better looking admittedly

Not by much.

I hope every broadcaster and everyone else gets commitments from the government that if we vote no we won't be handed back a tweaked treaty. It's no surprise that things are becoming more and more undemocratic after those two farces that were the Lisbon and Nice treaties.

hooradiation

Shenshen wrote: »

Why not just wait and see what it actually IS going to be about before deciding how you're going to vote?
Or is that a cloud-cuckoo land attitude as well?

Look, if you don't set out your stall early by being damn, damn opposed to something you don't know about, how do you expect to be able to claim you were right all along when you eventually have some actual facts to ignore when they fly in the face of your long held beliefs?

He's being very clever, this kind of long term planning is what allows for some truly entrenched opinions.

Shattered Dreamer

Oh_Noes wrote: »

Not by much.

I hope every broadcaster and everyone else gets commitments from the government that if we vote no we won't be handed back a tweaked treaty. It's no surprise that things are becoming more and more undemocratic after those two farces that were the Lisbon and Nice treaties.

And commitments from this government not to do something will change what? Did you miss the Budget