Another EU referendum on the way

sensibleken

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

To be able to handle Taxation directly in Brussels why else?

but youve already said france and germany control both brussels and the ability to raise our corpo tax.

sensibleken

TheZohan wrote: »

We'll soon find out, I'll bookmark this thread so it can be revisited when the treaty is proposed.

As for the lotto numbers, comparing the likelihood of guessing the lotto numbers with what the future treaty will contain is, quite frankly, nonsensical. It's blatantly obvious what Germany and France want, they've been talking about it ad nauseum since the crisis began.

exactly! well find out soon, then we can make our mind up.

Morlar

Any proposal to give the French and Germans more control and influence over Irish affairs is getting a NO from me, as many times as it takes. It's hilarious how the pro eu fanboys are now saying 'hold on till we see the wording of the refferendum'. The wording is pretty much irrelevant in my view, we all know what is behind it. Any Irish person thinking that merkel and sarkozy have anything other than French and German interests at heart is delusional. Hophing that they will be nice to us is retarded and that is essentially what a yes vote to give them more control over our affairs would amount to.

If Irish corporate tax is harmonised the benefits to France and Germany would be negligible, while it will elbow our economy over the edge.

sensibleken

hooradiation wrote: »

Look, if you don't set out your stall early by being damn, damn opposed to something you don't know about, how do you expect to be able to claim you were right all along when you eventually have some actual facts to ignore when they fly in the face of your long held beliefs?

He's being very clever, this kind of long term planning is what allows for some truly entrenched opinions.

also deciding straight out saves an aweful lot of reading. those treaties are long!

Lord Trollington

TheZohan wrote: »

Source.



Well I can tell you one thing, this new treaty isn't going to be about the shape of bananas. Anyone that thinks this isn't going to be about Corporation Tax is living in cuckoo land.

This is without a shadow of a doubt amongst other things going to be about Europe being able to Control corporate tax rates throughout the Eurozone, anyone thinking its about anything else is in cuckoo land.

I for one will be voting no ragardless of whats in the Treaty.

Europe is no longer good for us.

Shattered Dreamer

sensibleken wrote: »

but youve already said france and germany control both brussels and the ability to raise our corpo tax.

I'll admit I said they control Brussels but I said they could bully us into raising the corpo tax if they really wanted too. The only reason they haven't yet I can think of is there must be a term of the Bail Out deal from the EU & IMF not to do so. I'm really surprised they haven't offered to erase a portion of our debt owed to them in line with every percent we add to our corpo tax.

At the end of the day 1 of 2 things will happen, we'll be forced to raise our corpo tax rate our we'll be forced out the Euro Zone & maybe even the EU over a refusal not to change it.

mikom

Morlar wrote: »

If Irish corporate tax is harmonised the benefits to France and Germany would be negligible, while it will elbow our economy over the edge.

An economy over the edge won't be able to handle its budget, breaking the proposed European economy rules, which will lead to sanctions, which will finally make this little country unlivable for all but the very rich.

hooradiation

Morlar wrote: »

It's hilarious how the pro eu fanboys are now saying 'hold on till we see the wording of the refferendum'. The wording is pretty much irrelevant in my view, we all know what is behind it.

fuck facts, what I feel is more important!

foxyboxer

*awaits Godwin's Law*

Shattered Dreamer

foxyboxer wrote: »

*awaits Godwin's Law*

Is Godwin's Law not an inevitability when talking about Germany's influence over the EU

Shenshen

Lord Trollington wrote: »

This is without a shadow of a doubt amongst other things going to be about Europe being able to Control corporate tax rates throughout the Eurozone, anyone thinking its about anything else is in cuckoo land.

I for one will be voting no ragardless of whats in the Treaty.

Europe is no longer good for us.

No, they only covered our arses after our last government shoved money they didn't have into the banking system and ruined the country...

I'm aware that the EU didn't act out of sheer humanitarian concern, but the fact is they provided the money to keep the country going at a lower interest rate than we could have hoped for anywhere else.

SeaFields

The British PM was on sky news awhile ago saying he will be vetoing any attempt at tax changes across the EU as it would affect the city of London financial trading.

I imagine this is good for us?

Morlar

hooradiation wrote: »

fuck facts, what I feel is more important!

Why not just say 'Vote YES' ?

Rather than hide behind the 'oh, but we haven't read the wording of it yet, how ever can we possibly know what this is about ?'

Shattered Dreamer

The fact that there is a provision in Budget 2012 of tax breaks for Irish companies who try to invest in so called BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) says to me that at least somebody within the government expects our recent dealings with the EU to go pear shaped.

sensibleken

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

I'll admit I said they control Brussels but I said they could bully us into raising the corpo tax if they really wanted too. The only reason they haven't yet I can think of is there must be a term of the Bail Out deal from the EU & IMF not to do so. I'm really surprised they haven't offered to erase a portion of our debt owed to them in line with every percent we add to our corpo tax.

At the end of the day 1 of 2 things will happen, we'll be forced to raise our corpo tax rate our we'll be forced out the Euro Zone & maybe even the EU over a refusal not to change it.

Taxation changes require unanimity, and those garuntees we got on it entered into law earlier this year. Theres no doubt france has been after it but there is no garuntee that it will be in any finished treaty. Most other countries are against harmonisation as they also have their own interests at heart (bulgaria's corpo tax is 10%).

It took 10 years to get lisbon through, the germans want it in march which isnt going to happen and Sarkozy will be gone in the next election, few other people other than those people think a treaty change is neccesary as the sanctions thing is useless and there are already rules under the stability and growth act, nice and maastrict that are not being adhered to

Shenshen

SeaFields wrote: »

The British PM was on sky news awhile ago saying he will be vetoing any attempt at tax changes across the EU as it would affect the city of London financial trading.

I imagine this is good for us?

You just have to love this... he's going to veto any attempt to put brakes on the fvkers who landed us in the sh1t in the first place....
Talk about having learned a lesson.

eth0

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

The fact that there is a provision in Budget 2012 of tax breaks for Irish companies who try to invest in so called BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa) says to me that at least somebody within the government expects our recent dealings with the EU to go pear shaped.

There could be new union the BRICPIGS

Lord Trollington

Shenshen wrote: »

No, they only covered our arses after our last government shoved money they didn't have into the banking system and ruined the country...

I'm aware that the EU didn't act out of sheer humanitarian concern, but the fact is they provided the money to keep the country going at a lower interest rate than we could have hoped for anywhere else.

It was European banks that rammed all their money into Irish banks making Credit easy.

You dont honestly think Germany and France are bailing us out because we're fun guys who like to drink and party.

They dont give a bollix about us. They want their investment back and if we're broke and go under they will never get it.

Shenshen

sensibleken wrote: »

Taxation changes require unanimity, and those garuntees we got on it entered into law earlier this year. Theres no doubt france has been after it but there is no garuntee that it will be in any finished treaty. Most other countries are against harmonisation as they also have their own interests at heart (bulgaria's corpo tax is 10%).

It took 10 years to get lisbon through, the germans want it in march which isnt going to happen and Sarkozy will be gone in the next election, few other people other than those people think a treaty change is neccesary as the sanctions thing is useless and there are already rules under the stability and growth act, nice and maastrict that are not being adhered to

Germany's corp tax btw is 15%.
They wil have NO interest in harmonising that with France's 33%.

Shenshen

Lord Trollington wrote: »

It was European banks that rammed all their money into Irish banks making Credit easy.

You dont honestly think Germany and France are bailing us out because we're fun guys who like to drink and party.

They dont give a bollix about us. They want their investment back and if we're broke and go under they will never get it.

We took the money, and we spent it happily enough.
For us to go crying now that we're forced to pay back the debts we ran up, and to pretend that EU membership has lost its benefits, is childish.

hooradiation

Morlar wrote: »

Why not just say 'Vote YES' ?

Rather than hide behind the 'oh, but we haven't read the wording of it yet, how ever can we possibly know what this is about ?'

Because i don't know how i'm going to vote, and unlike you i'm reluctant to set my stall out on something i know nothing about.

I know I should be astounded that reading and researching what I'm to vote on is somehow the wrong fucking option.
I should be, but then I know full well the kind of knee-jerk hysteria that is stock and trade in these kinds of bullshit fests.

I'll cut you a deal - you stop your Chicken Licken nonsense and I'll stop making fun of your half-assed opinions and bullshit.

opinion guy

TheZohan wrote: »

Guarantee you it will be tax harmonisation and our corporation tax.


Even if it means going to the polls a dozen times I'm voting "NO" on this one.

Don't f**k with The Zohan - do you hear me EU ?

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Is Godwin's Law not an inevitability when talking about Germany's influence over the EU

Godwins' law is always an inevitability no matter the topic. Thats' why is a law like.....



It France want tax harmonisation why don't they just reduce their corporate tax rate to 12.5%

Honestly I don't think this tax rate actually makes any difference anymore - the economy is f**ked anyhow. I think now they just want to break us and make us change it for the sake of it. Its kind of taken on a life of its own this issue.

Shattered Dreamer

Shenshen wrote: »

We took the money, and we spent it happily enough.
For us to go crying now that we're forced to pay back the debts we ran up, and to pretend that EU membership has lost its benefits, is childish.

It's not the fact we're being forced to pay back the debt we're being "childish" over. It is the fact that the previous government signed away our economic sovereignty away to the EU & IMF that annoys the Irish people. If Brian Cowen had of had any sense he would of left the EU & IMF deal to the incoming government. But then FF & Labour have proven they can't be trusted either so basically we must ride the $h*t storm.

later12

Morlar wrote: »

Any proposal to give the French and Germans more control and influence over Irish affairs is getting a NO from me, as many times as it takes.

Even if it involves common European bonds and saving the Euro?

This is bizarre.

Ireland is making a truly astounding economic recovery, and it isn't because of glorified county councillors like Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin. We are making a startling recovery because we are adhering to the terms of a Memorandum of Understanding which was presided over by global and European economic and international finance experts in getting Ireland re-access to the sovereign markets for national borrowing.

It's literally like the class dunce, to use a school analogy, is being packed off to Harvard Business school to learn Junior Cert Business Studies.

Never before have the public not only seen such progress in turning this economy around in a positive sense, but also never before have we seen our economic affairs handled so transparently. We - the public - have detailed information on what cuts there will be this year, next year,and the following year, we can find out, in tortuous detail, how fiscal reforms can be carried out and what the advantages and disadvantages of such reforms might be.

Not only is the progress unprecedented, not only are we one of the strongest performing European economies in terms of our current a/c balance and our exports, but we have a level of economic decision making that was never, in the history of this state, so transparent and so accessible to the public.

These are the products not only of central European influence - but the products of the fact that experts in the European Commission and the IMF are the de-facto economic leadership of this country.

I say more of this, please. I shudder to think what sort of sorry state we might be in if we had the likes of Joan Burton, Brendan Howlin and Michael Noonan truly managing our affairs. Not only do I suspect we would be closer on the scale to Greece, I suspect that we would still be living in the uninformed system that characterised successive Fianna Fail Governments and failed to adequately inform the public of what was going on with the state's finances.

orangebud

they took or jobs

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-I91B3cEl9XQ/Tt5EGy4QjiI/AAAAAAABRXg/McNHFpwrrzw/w402/ES%2BNS%2Blaugh.jpg

RichieC

opinion guy wrote: »

Godwins' law is always an inevitability no matter the topic. Thats' why is a law like.....

It's only a godwin if the analogy doesn't work.

Lord Trollington

Shenshen wrote: »

We took the money, and we spent it happily enough.
For us to go crying now that we're forced to pay back the debts we ran up, and to pretend that EU membership has lost its benefits, is childish.

I'm not crying at all.

I'm just saying Europe can go fúck off. I wont be backing anything they try to force upon us.

Oh and I didnt take any money or spend it, but I am paying for it somehow. Imagine that.

foxyboxer

Ireland had spent years being schooled by the Christian Brothers. Not bothering to go to Third level, it took a job in construction. The ECB was like the credit union giving out low interest loans to Ireland who spent it on new cars, foreign holidays, a new house and an extension out the back. Jobs were plentiful and money was cheap.

Then Ireland lost it's job and couldn't pay back the credit union. The IMF (Social Welfare) gave money to tide Ireland along until some work was found. Germany and France (MABS) took Ireland aside and developed a budget plan to repay it's loans. Ireland would pay back 30% of all it earned and learn to live off 70%.

It's only demand was that it took whatever job came up.

Eventually an opening in a supermarket storeroom opened up. Ireland had to take it as the credit union loan interest was starting to bite. Ireland sold it's car and anything it didn't use regularly and used the proceeds to cover it's debts. Ireland learned to be a bit more frugally. Waste not, want not so to speak.

It wasn't particularly well paid but Ireland refused to find it demeaning as it needed the cash. Ireland renegotiated with the credit union to repay the loan over an extended period.

The credit union liked Ireland and accepted a repayment plan. The interest was a little bit more, but Ireland lived within it's means and found a way.

It learned to live off 70% of it's income while the remaining 30% went off it debts. Ireland still had food and shelter and treated itself every now and then, but never exceeded the 70% of it's wages doing so. Eventually, the loan was paid off and Irelands credit was good again.

Ireland took out a loan from the credit union again and having never learnt from it's experience upgraded the car and went on foreign holidays 3 times a year and moved to a nicer are and got an extension on the house, eventually Ireland lost it's job....etc etc etc

Shenshen

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

It's not the fact we're being forced to pay back the debt we're being "childish" over. It is the fact that the previous government signed away our economic sovereignty away to the EU & IMF that annoys the Irish people. If Brian Cowen had of had any sense he would of left the EU & IMF deal to the incoming government. But then FF & Labour have proven they can't be trusted either so basically we must ride the $h*t storm.

I agree with that.
If they had any sense at all, they would never have finalised the bank guarantee without first getting full insight in the actual figures they were dealing with.

However, I think blaming the EU for the failings of our own government is a ridiculous way of outsourcing guilt.

Lord Trollington

foxyboxer wrote: »

Ireland had spent years being schooled by the Christian Brothers. Not bothering to go to Third level, it took a job in construction. The ECB was like the credit union giving out low interest loans to Ireland who spent it on new cars, foreign holidays, a new house and an extension out the back. Jobs were plentiful and money was cheap.

Then Ireland lost it's job and couldn't pay back the credit union. The IMF (Social Welfare) gave money to tide Ireland along until some work was found. Germany and France (MABS) took Ireland aside and developed a budget plan to repay it's loans. Ireland would pay back 30% of all it earned and learn to live off 70%.

It's only demand was that it took whatever job came up.

Eventually an opening in a supermarket storeroom opened up. Ireland had to take it as the credit union loan interest was starting to bite.

It wasn't particularly well paid but Ireland refused to find it demeaning as it needed the cash. Ireland renegotiated with the credit union to repay the loan over an extended period.

The credit union liked Ireland and accepted a repayment plan. The interest was a little bit more, but Ireland lived within it's means and found a way.

It learned to live off 70% of it's income while the remaining 30% went off it debts. Ireland still had food and shelter and treated itself every now and then, but never exceeded the 70% of it's wages doing so. Eventually, the loan was paid off and Irelands credit was good again.

Ireland took out a loan from the credit union again and having never learnt from it's experience upgraded the car and went on foreign holidays 3 times a year and moved to a nicer are and got an extension on the house, eventually Ireland lost it's job....etc etc etc

Reading Economy for Dummies are we... great read that.