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Another EU referendum on the way

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12467…11

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    #92
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Because i don't know how i'm going to vote, and unlike you i'm reluctant to set my stall out on something i know nothing about.

    I know I should be astounded that reading and researching what I'm to vote on is somehow the wrong fucking option.
    I should be, but then I know full well the kind of knee-jerk hysteria that is stock and trade in these kinds of bullshit fests.

    I'll cut you a deal - you stop your Chicken Licken nonsense and I'll stop making fun of your half-assed opinions and bullshit.

    I have no problem admitting how I am going to vote.

    Any attempt to give more power and control to Sarkozy and Merkel gets a NO from me. As many times as it will take. How exactly they word that request is not the central issue in my view.

    Any one thinking that Merkel, Sarkozy, Barroso or the ECB for that matter have the best intersts of Ireland at heart is either dishonest or deluded. Irish corporate tax rate being increased would directly damage our economy at a time when we can least afford it. While bringing less than spectacular benefits to France or Germany.

    The fact that Merkel and Sarkozy have repeatedly refused to accept our NO on this question is very revealing in my view in terms of how much our interests are likely to be served by them.


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    #93
    foxyboxer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭foxyboxer


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    Reading Economy for Dummies are we... great read that.

    Just trying to give an analogy instead of spouting second hand opinions left right and centre.

    TL;DR?

    Money is a simple concept made complex by idiots. We owe money, those we owe will get us to pay, it's the working out of the terms that is taking too long.


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    #94
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    I'm not crying at all.

    I'm just saying Europe can go fúck off. I wont be backing anything they try to force upon us.

    Oh and I didnt take any money or spend it, but I am paying for it somehow. Imagine that.

    Guess what, neither did I. And as a foreign national, I didn't even get a vote on what people to run the place and it's finances, and I'm still paying for it.
    Our previous government made some utterly, utterly insane decisions on how to use our money, and we're paying for it now.
    None of this had anything to do with the EU.


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    #95
    Lord Trollington
    Registered Users Posts: 4,411 ✭✭✭Lord Trollington


    Shenshen wrote: »
    I agree with that.
    If they had any sense at all, they would never have finalised the bank guarantee without first getting full insight in the actual figures they were dealing with.

    However, I think blaming the EU for the failings of our own government is a ridiculous way of outsourcing guilt.

    No one is blaming the EU per say. We were backed into a corner and forced into taking a bailout which at time was taking at an extortionate rate.

    With that they are leaking our budget details, wanting us to lower our corporation tax and if we don't do so they will think of a way of forcing us.

    I'm not silly enough to think they care about the lives of 4million paddies.

    I don't trust them.


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    #96
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Morlar wrote: »
    I have no problem admitting how I am going to vote.

    Any attempt to give more power and control to Sarkozy and Merkel gets a NO from me. As many times as it will take. How exactly they word that request is not the central issue in my view.

    Any one thinking that Merkel, Sarkozy, Barroso or the ECB for that matter have the best intersts of Ireland at heart is either dishonest or deluded. Irish corporate tax rate being increased would directly damage our economy at a time when we can least afford it. While bringing less than spectacular benefits to France or Germany.

    The fact that Merkel and Sarkozy have repeatedly refused to accept our NO on this question is very revealing in my view in terms of how much our interests are likely to be served by them.

    Look, Zohan already has the market cornered on "I was always against it", find your own angle to justify your laziness and shirking of responsibilities as a voter.

    Maybe try the "I was for it but then I saw this youtube video" approach. It's early days you might be able to get that cornered before someone else.


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    #97
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    later10 wrote: »
    Even if it involves common European bonds and saving the Euro?

    This is bizarre.

    Ireland is making a truly astounding economic recovery, and it isn't because of glorified county councillors like Phil Hogan and Brendan Howlin. We are making a startling recovery because we are adhering to the terms of a Memorandum of Understanding which was presided over by global and European economic and international finance experts in getting Ireland re-access to the sovereign markets for national borrowing.

    It's literally like the class dunce, to use a school analogy, is being packed off to Harvard Business school to learn Junior Cert Business Studies.

    Never before have the public not only seen such progress in turning this economy around in a positive sense, but also never before have we seen our economic affairs handled so transparently. We - the public - have detailed information on what cuts there will be this year, next year,and the following year, we can find out, in tortuous detail, how fiscal reforms can be carried out and what the advantages and disadvantages of such reforms might be.

    Not only is the progress unprecedented, not only are we one of the strongest performing European economies in terms of our current a/c balance and our exports, but we have a level of economic decision making that was never, in the history of this state, so transparent and so accessible to the public.

    These are the products not only of central European influence - but the products of the fact that experts in the European Commission and the IMF are the de-facto economic leadership of this country.

    I say more of this, please. I shudder to think what sort of sorry state we might be in if we had the likes of Joan Burton, Brendan Howlin and Michael Noonan truly managing our affairs. Not only do I suspect we would be closer on the scale to Greece, I suspect that we would still be living in the uninformed system that characterised successive Fianna Fail Governments and failed to adequately inform the public of what was going on with the state's finances.

    What ****ing planet are you on? The "Troika" aren't politicians or economists or humanitarians, they're errand boys come to make sure they get their masters' cash back.


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    #98
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Look, Zohan already has the market cornered on "I was always against it", find your own angle to justify your laziness and shirking of responsibilities as a voter.

    Maybe try the "I was for it but then I saw this youtube video" approach. It's early days you might be able to get that cornered before someone else.

    I voted no to Lisbon twice, that is correct.

    You voted yes twice I take it ?


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    #99
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    No one is blaming the EU per say. We were backed into a corner and forced into taking a bailout which at time was taking at an extortionate rate.

    With that they are leaking our budget details, wanting us to lower our corporation tax and if we don't do so they will think of a way of forcing us.

    I'm not silly enough to think they care about the lives of 4million paddies.

    I don't trust them.

    Good for you. Don't ever trust any politician.

    But don't trust them either way, get your own information rather than saying yes or no to what they tell you, some politicians are clever enough to pull off double-bluffs.

    As such, I would rather rely on whatever changes they will actually trying to write into the treaty rather than on what I hear people suggest might be considered by individuals to suggest including.

    As I pointed out, Germany's corporation tax is at 15% compared to 33% in France.
    Do you seriously think Germany wants to implement a treaty change forcing it to harmonise its taxes with France's?
    I've got my doubts there.

    If they're clever, they won't even touch the Lisbon treaty and just use other existing treaties and agreements and start enforcing commitments made in those. That should be easier, quicker, and sufficient to re-introduce stability.


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    #100
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Look, Zohan already has the market cornered on "I was always against it", find your own angle to justify your laziness and shirking of responsibilities as a voter.

    Maybe try the "I was for it but then I saw this youtube video" approach. It's early days you might be able to get that cornered before someone else.

    OMG lolz.


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    #101
    eth0
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭eth0


    latenia wrote: »
    What ****ing planet are you on? The "Troika" aren't politicians or economists or humanitarians, they're errand boys come to make sure they get their masters' cash back.

    I don't see our astounding economic recovery either. I only see job losses, outsourcing and austerity that will lead to people spending the absolute minimum of money to save up for the sh1tstorm we're heading into


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    #102
    foxyboxer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭foxyboxer


    Lord Trollington wrote: »
    I'm not crying at all.

    I'm just saying Europe can go fúck off. I wont be backing anything they try to force upon us.

    Oh and I didnt take any money or spend it, but I am paying for it somehow. Imagine that.

    If the EU was like one big happy family I would be worried.

    Rule #1 of lending money. Never lend to family. You'll more than likely never see it again.

    Business is business. The country borrowed the money and the country will have to pay it back. What's done is done. I have no debt either but if any savings i've made has been fruitless then we can dispense with protests as chaos will reign in Ireland.


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    #103
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Morlar wrote: »
    I voted no to Lisbon twice, that is correct.

    You voted yes twice I take it ?

    Yes.
    Problem?


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    #104
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    hooradiation wrote: »
    Yes.
    Problem?

    It's just I think you need to find a 'new angle' with that.

    Or, maybe, just stop trying to project your own attitudes onto others.


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    #105
    foxyboxer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭foxyboxer


    How would we be feeling if this was boards.de?


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    #106
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    foxyboxer wrote: »
    How would we be feeling if this was boards.de?

    Confused as to why it's in English? I thought that was boards.co.uk?


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    #107
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    foxyboxer wrote: »
    How would we be feeling if this was boards.de?
    Just fine.

    Dandy, really.


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    #108
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    latenia wrote: »
    What ****ing planet are you on? The "Troika" aren't politicians or economists or humanitarians, they're errand boys come to make sure they get their masters' cash back.
    Uh huh.

    Sorry I must have written that when I briefly took off my tinfoil hat.


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    #109
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    Morlar wrote: »
    It's just I think you need to find a 'new angle' with that.

    The difference being that I've no idea how i'm going to vote, mostly because i have no idea what we might be voting on.

    Which is a far cry from making your mind up now and deciding that anyone who points out how fucking stupid this is is secretly trying to convince people vote against the stance you've already made with zero actual knowledge.

    Morlar wrote: »
    Or, maybe, just stop trying to project your own attitudes onto others

    If the attitude you're accusing me of 'projecting' is "stop being a reactionary fuckhead and actually wait until you have something on which to do some research before deciding how to vote" then i see no reason to stop.
    Because it's the sane way to do things.


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    #110
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    later10 wrote: »
    Just fine.

    Dandy, really.

    I think there is an important distinction between German voters and German politicians. Same with French and all other european countries.

    Assuming that french voters and German voters (or any other EU country voters) would automatically approve treaty change is not a safe assumption in my view (If they were given the freedom to vote directly on it).

    This explains why other countries are not given the choice to vote on things like Lisbon. The eu-fanboy excuse given is that 'you voted for the politician so you agree to anything they sign you up for' is just that in my view, it's an excuse, to cover over the fact that in this super democracy people are prevented from exercising their opinion on the subject. And we all know what happens when they express the wrong opinion.


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    #111
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    hooradiation wrote: »
    The difference being that I've no idea how i'm going to vote, mostly because i have no idea what we might be voting on.

    Which is a far cry from making your mind up now and deciding that anyone who points out how fucking stupid this is is secretly trying to convince people vote against the stance you've already made with zero actual knowledge.




    If the attitude you're accusing me of 'projecting' is "stop being a reactionary fuckhead and actually wait until you have something on which to do some research before deciding how to vote" then i see no reason to stop.
    Because it's the sane way to do things.

    There's an old saying, "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

    I think it's quite apt with the ghey schite you're posting.

    OMG lolz.


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    #112
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Honestly I don't think this tax rate actually makes any difference anymore - the economy is f**ked anyhow. I think now they just want to break us and make us change it for the sake of it. Its kind of taken on a life of its own this issue.

    Try 50% unemployment for size if the multinationals leave.


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    #113
    CuriousOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭CuriousOne


    foxyboxer wrote: »
    How would we be feeling if this was boards.de?

    Now there's an idea - should put an end to insufferable grammatical errors.


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    #114
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Morlar wrote: »
    This explains why other countries are not given the choice to vote on things like Lisbon. The eu-fanboy excuse given is that 'you voted for the politician so you agree to anything they sign you up for' is just that in my view, it's an excuse, to cover over the fact that in this super democracy people are prevented from exercising their opinion on the subject. And we all know what happens when they express the wrong opinion.
    I largely agree. I'm quite in favour of an EU referendum, and I'm also quite confident that it would pass in most jurisdictions. if it doesn't pass in any specific country, then that country should do the right thing at leave the Economic & Monetary Union.


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    #115
    hooradiation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,922 ✭✭✭hooradiation


    TheZohan wrote: »
    There's an old saying, "you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

    I think it's quite apt with the ghey schite you're posting.

    OMG lolz.

    "ghey schite"

    Well, that's certainly told me.
    Not sure what it's told me but given the calibre of your contributions so far I think I'm best off not knowing.


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    #116
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Let's put it this way - if there is anything regarding harmonisation on either corporation taxes or bases - I will vote No.

    If there is nothing in it regarding at least some debt relief, writedowns or term extensions, I will vote No.

    If there is any loss of control over our budgets assuming we eventually get back to the bond markets, I will vote No.

    Our previously elected governments made a right mess of the economy, but they were democratically elected, so we have only ourselves to blame.

    Lets face it, the Eurocrats are not the ones to get the economy working again.


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    #117
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    later10 wrote: »
    I largely agree. I'm quite in favour of an EU referendum, and I'm also quite confident that it would pass in most jurisdictions. if it doesn't pass in any specific country, then that country should do the right thing at leave the Economic & Monetary Union.

    Seconded.
    There is provision in countries like Germany to allow the public to push for any kind of referendum they wish.
    I always thought it highly undemocratic that in other countries, a referendum has to be approved by the government before it gets put to public vote. That's democracy arseways.
    But then again, that's these specific countries being undemocratic, nothing I'd blame on the EU itself.

    I can just about imagine the outcry if the EU tried to enforce referenda in its member nations... How dare they!?!


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    #118
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    later10 wrote: »
    I largely agree. I'm quite in favour of an EU referendum, and I'm also quite confident that it would pass in most jurisdictions. if it doesn't pass in any specific country, then that country should do the right thing at leave the Economic & Monetary Union.

    Now that's sarcasm!


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    #119
    iano.p
    Closed Accounts Posts: 817 ✭✭✭iano.p


    another no vote, and then they will hold it again till they get what they want


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    #120
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    hooradiation wrote: »
    The difference being that I've no idea how i'm going to vote, mostly because i have no idea what we might be voting on.

    Which is a far cry from making your mind up now and deciding that anyone who points out how fucking stupid this is is secretly trying to convince people vote against the stance you've already made with zero actual knowledge.




    If the attitude you're accusing me of 'projecting' is "stop being a reactionary fuckhead and actually wait until you have something on which to do some research before deciding how to vote" then i see no reason to stop.
    Because it's the sane way to do things.

    I don't think you have to be a 'reactionary fuckhead' to disagree with your viewpoint on this issue. Any more than someone taking your stance would have to be a 'reactionary fuckhead' to begin with.

    I believe that pro-eu fanboys are using the excuse of 'we have not read the wording yet how can we possibly know how to vote ?'.

    This entire thread is about a referendum which at this point has not been confirmed. It is speculative by definition.

    The common sbelief is that if the eu can possibly find a way to avoid offering us a choice then that is exactly what they will do.

    It is only in case they are unable to manipulate this into being without a refferendum that this speculative thread exsists to begin with.

    The exact wording is going to be important but the general question behind it of 'should we give the EU more power and control over Irish sovereign/Financial affairs' - can be discussed at this point. People are permitted to express a view point on this question or any other aspect of potential refferenda too for that matter.


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    #121
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    professore wrote: »
    Let's put it this way - if there is anything regarding harmonisation on either corporation taxes or bases - I will vote No.

    If there is nothing in it regarding at least some debt relief, writedowns or term extensions, I will vote No.

    If there is any loss of control over our budgets assuming we eventually get back to the bond markets, I will vote No.

    Our previously elected governments made a right mess of the economy, but they were democratically elected, so we have only ourselves to blame.

    Lets face it, the Eurocrats are not the ones to get the economy working again.

    I would make it dependent on what exactly it says on corporation taxes.
    Same with the debts.

    But I would vote yes on the EU being able to enforce the terms of the Maastricht treaty by approving or vetoing budgets.


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