Another EU referendum on the way

histories · 08-12-2011 11:19pm

Wow, the French really have a hard on for our corporate tax! Get over it already!

Will vote no as I am against further intergration. At the end of the day as much as I despise the actions of our government I still prefer them to be running the financial show as we have voting power over them, we don't with Brussels. In fact we never will, these people will be able to run the show without suffering the consequences or having the responsibilites that our own governement have towards us. Do people really think that France and Germany will give a damn about us? Our own government don't, these people certainly won't.

Give it ten years and they'll be saying we need even further integration. Economic control is a powerful thing and to give it away is the start of a very slippery slope! Even if I have to vote 200 times I'll be voting no. Stick to your guns.

Hard to believe what started as a common market has grown to this! Quel disaster!

later12 · 08-12-2011 11:41pm

histories wrote: »

Hard to believe what started as a common market has grown to this! Quel disaster!

It didn't, really. The single European market remains a different entity with a different embryology to the single currency. It should yet survive any (unlikely) Euro breakup.

The Euro started with the fall of the Berlin Wall, which led to the Maastricht Treaty, which led to the Euro.

The demolition of the Berlin Wall - that previously impenetrable barrier - was supposed to be the genesis of greater fiscal and economic integration across the Eurozone. It can yet be.

The demolition of the wall that divided East and West Germany was a potent reminder that we are all Europeans, and that we should not be blinded by the man-made nationalism that we invent to divide us.

What makes us, the Irish public, different to the German or the French or the Scottish or the Greek public? We are all Europeans, we should be proud to live in a united Europe which has overcome the nationalistic narrow-minded ness of the 20th century.

We could still retain dominion over our own jurisdiction much in the same way that the US States retain control over state spending and state law under the federal umbrella.

The major benefit that this would give rise to would be an economic government to complement the monetary policy of the Eurozone, which would ensure a currency durable enough to compete with the US Dollar as the major world reserve currency.

tl;dr
I think it is absolutely no exaggeration to suggest that the future of Europe as a peaceful, influential bloc for positive change in global politics is what is at stake here. Europe cannot compete with the interests of the USA or the constituent members of the Emerging Economies without a currency and economic union.

galwayrush · 08-12-2011 11:44pm

The French want us to raise our corporation tax... **** them i'll vote No then.

My name is URL · 08-12-2011 11:46pm

The funny thing about France and its CT rate is that it's closer to around 10% after you take into consideration the other tax breaks applicable to companies there, and they have the advantage of being part of mainland Europe so commerce is far easier for them.

People go on about Ireland being left out in the cold, but mess with our CT rate or the European 'base' and you'll see what the cold really feels like.

Doc Ruby · 08-12-2011 11:47pm

later10 wrote: »

tl;dr
I think it is absolutely no exaggeration to suggest that the future of Europe as a peaceful, influential bloc for positive change in global politics is what is at stake here. Europe cannot compete with the interests of the USA or the constituent members of the Emerging Economies without a currency and economic union.

Thats not whats pissing people off. We can have all that without losing sovereignty, and Europe is made up of very different countries with different languages, cultures and histories. This isn't the USA part deux and it can't be.

You can't ignore a single country if they really make up their minds they don't want to go the majority route, because they can and will tell you to go get knotted, something our German and French friends don't seem to be able to wrap their heads around.

later12 · 08-12-2011 11:52pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Thats not whats pissing people off. We can have all that without losing sovereignty

No you can't.

A successful currency must have an economic government whose policies can complement monetary policy.

That's not even undergraduate level economics, that's common sense.

Europe is made up of very different countries with different languages, cultures and histories.

What's that got to do with anything?

Dublin has different history and different languages to the Gaeltachai, what on Earth do languages and respective histories have to do with anything? These are nonsensical, and arbitrary divisions that nationalists like to use to explain why their country is so incomparable with all others. It doesn't really mean anything in real life.

Lord Trollington · 08-12-2011 11:54pm

later10 wrote: »

What makes us, the Irish public, different to the German or the French or the Scottish or the Greek public? We are all Europeans, we should be proud to live in a united Europe which has overcome the nationalistic narrow-minded ness of the 20th century.
.

I'm Irish first and foremost. Sooner the better Inda and Co realize that also.

I'll never consider myself "European" regardless of whats forced upon us.

If thats narrow minded then so be it.

Lord Trollington · 08-12-2011 11:55pm

later10 wrote: »

No you can't.

A successful currency must have an economic government whose policies can complement monetary policy.

That's not even undergraduate level economics, that's common sense.

What's that got to do with anything?

Dublin has different history and different languages to the Gaeltachai, what on Earth do languages and respective histories have to do with anything? These are nonsensical, and arbitrary divisions that nationalists like to use to explain why their country is so incomparable with all others. It doesn't really mean anything in real life.

Your like the opposite of Jim Corr.... Fock off already.

Doc Ruby · 09-12-2011 12:03am

later10 wrote: »

No you can't.

A successful currency must have an economic government whose policies can complement monetary policy.

That's not even undergraduate level economics, that's common sense.

My understanding is that all the euro really needs is something like the Federal Reserve. If individual countries go mad like Greece then fair enough apply sanctions, but these rules already exist with deficit restrictions. So tell me why its common sense to what are you saying, go for cultural and political union? Mihole.

later10 wrote: »

Dublin has different history and different languages to the Gaeltachai, what on Earth do languages and respective histories have to do with anything? These are nonsensical, and arbitrary divisions that nationalists like to use to explain why their country is so incomparable with all others. It doesn't really mean anything in real life.

Dublin's got more of a relationship to the Gaeltacht than it does to Paris or Berlin, a lot more. You're talking about empire, here, and its as feeble an argument as it was during the 19th century.

liptonvillag · 09-12-2011 12:09am

humanji wrote: »

I could be wrong, but isn't the corporation tax not really that important? It's just something the French demanded and was the first time Ireland said "Piss off". It's more a matter of pride for the French to change it and for us to keep it. It won't make any country more or less appealing to companies. Or at least that's the way it seems to me.

Harmonisation would be detrimental to Ireland. You have to remember that Ireland is an island. It's a country on the Periphery of Europe. If we were connected to the European main land then we would be operating of a level playing field and even still have an advantage because we have a young well educated IT base. If harmonisation came in, why would U.S and foreign International companies locate on an island on the margins of Europe when it could base itself on the European main land and access cheaper labour markets in the EU and have significantly cheaper Transportation costs for distribution around Europe and exporting through out of Europe through dozens of International shipping ports and Airports. Ireland's greatest advantage is our Corporate tax rate of 12.5% and our Educated and trained work force. If tax harmonisation occurs then Foreign companies lose a primary reason for locating in Ireland. Companies with move to cheaper tax destinations.

histories · 09-12-2011 12:11am

later10 wrote: »

It didn't, really. The single European market remains a different entity with a different embryology to the single currency. It should yet survive any (unlikely) Euro breakup.

The Euro started with the fall of the Berlin Wall, which led to the Maastricht Treaty, which led to the Euro.

The demolition of the Berlin Wall - that previously impenetrable barrier - was supposed to be the genesis of greater fiscal and economic integration across the Eurozone. It can yet be.

The demolition of the wall that divided East and West Germany was a potent reminder that we are all Europeans, and that we should not be blinded by the man-made nationalism that we invent to divide us.

What makes us, the Irish public, different to the German or the French or the Scottish or the Greek public? We are all Europeans, we should be proud to live in a united Europe which has overcome the nationalistic narrow-minded ness of the 20th century.

We could still retain dominion over our own jurisdiction much in the same way that the US States retain control over state spending and state law under the federal umbrella.

The major benefit that this would give rise to would be an economic government to complement the monetary policy of the Eurozone, which would ensure a currency durable enough to compete with the US Dollar as the major world reserve currency.

tl;dr
I think it is absolutely no exaggeration to suggest that the future of Europe as a peaceful, influential bloc for positive change in global politics is what is at stake here. Europe cannot compete with the interests of the USA or the constituent members of the Emerging Economies without a currency and economic union.

It did really. It started as the ECSC, then the EEC (Common Market), the Maastrich Treaty changed it to the EC and with the Treaty of Lisbon the EU replaced the EC. The legal personality of the EC was transferred to the EU as a whole.

Since the Treaty of Paris we have seen further and further integration.

And I am Irish not European.

Sheeps · 09-12-2011 12:12am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

My understanding is that all the euro really needs is something like the Federal Reserve. If individual countries go mad like Greece then fair enough apply sanctions, but these rules already exist with deficit restrictions. So tell me why its common sense to what are you saying, go for cultural and political union? Mihole.

Dublin's got more of a relationship to the Gaeltacht than it does to Paris or Berlin, a lot more. You're talking about empire, here, and its as feeble an argument as it was during the 19th century.

Empires in the 19th century made Europe what it is today.

later12 · 09-12-2011 12:15am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

My understanding is that all the euro really needs is something like the Federal Reserve. If individual countries go mad like Greece then fair enough apply sanctions, but these rules already exist with deficit restrictions.

the present restrictions do not amount to automatic penalties. That is what the German government - and, it seems, markets - are looking for before they will back the European monetary system and her constituent sovereigns.

So tell me why its common sense to what are you saying, go for cultural and political union? Mihole.

I didn't say anything about 'cultural and political' union - I referred to economic and fiscal union. This essentially means an economic governance (EA budgets examined for overspending, and approved centrally) and automatic discipline measures.

This is already the case for Ireland, as we are in an aid programme. Our budget already gets scrutinized abroad and we are already subject to sanctions as per the "tranche and reform" method of credit that is extended to us with conditionality.

What we are really talking about is extending such conditionality to other Eurozone members.

Dublin's got more of a relationship to the Gaeltacht than it does to Paris or Berlin

Who says? What's the nature of the relationship.

Lord Trollington wrote: »

I'm Irish first and foremost. Sooner the better Inda and Co realize that also.

I'll never consider myself "European" regardless of whats forced upon us.

If thats narrow minded then so be it.

If you happened to be born in France, you'd likely feel no affiliation at all with Ireland.

Nationality is an accident of birth. You did nothing to contribute anything toward it, it was not something you achieved. It is an out-dated dogma that has absolutely no rational basis, unlike say, a system of government operating on the basis that its voters share common economic and political interests by reason of their trade & political interests.

googsy · 09-12-2011 12:22am

http://www.scribd.com/doc/75158102/Brussels-Draft-0812

Doc Ruby · 09-12-2011 12:31am

later10 wrote: »

I didn't say anything about 'cultural and political' union

Oh yes you did, the minute you started talking about all being Europeans that's exactly what you were saying.

later10 wrote: »

I referred to economic and fiscal union. This essentially means an economic governance (EA budgets examined for overspending, and approved centrally) and automatic discipline measures.

But where does that leave the little countries like Ireland? How much approval will our corporate tax fancy footwork find among larger and more powerful countries that already established their industries under conditions that would have been illegal today?

later10 wrote: »

Who says? What's the nature of the relationship.

It is an out-dated dogma that has absolutely no rational basis, unlike say, a system of government operating on the basis that its voters share common economic and political interests by reason of their trade & political interests.

...must...resist..urge...to...godwin...thread...nghghghhh

MOSSAD · 09-12-2011 12:47am

From a landowners point of view, whatever about the fiscal stuff, it's the other stuff coming from Europe that is worrying.
Don't drain or improve your land. Grow only native broadleaves, even if the soil unsuitable and they will only be good for firewood. Make sure your animals have a roof over their heads, and ensure they do not walk in their own s**t.
Your private well water is to be taxed.
I'm not sure if these are actual EU directives or the interpretation of EU directives by Irish apparatchiks, but that's the experience among many who are choose to make a living from the land. The environment section of the local council proposes turning 1/3 of Co.Clare into a wildlife park, with a ban on wind energy, severe restrictions on forestry and restrictions on farming. It claims to be following EU guidelines.
So has someone decided we are to be a recreational area for the Germans? Maybe it's time to reinstall the half door and thatch the roof.
Time to get the pikes out too.

liptonvillag · 09-12-2011 1:09am

very sobering thoughts on the Vincent Browne show tonight by Paul Sommerville. I wish it had been made up of all Economists. Brian Lucy and Constaine Gordiev (can't spell second name). We had an ex Irish Politician Mary Banotti spiffing her way through the program like she had a clue about what Sommerville was talking about. She at one stage comments that she felt like cutting her throat listening to Paul Sommerville's "doomsday scenario". The guy is a valued source of information about what is going on at the minute surrounding the euro crisis instead of listening to banal euphemisms and cliche statements by politicians who haven't got a godamn clue what's going on or haven't the political skill to articulate what is going on. Thank you Mr Sommerville for your honest and comments about the crisis and where we may be heading.

later12 · 09-12-2011 1:19am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Later10 wrote:

I didn't say anything about 'cultural and political' union

Oh yes you did, the minute you started talking about all being Europeans that's exactly what you were saying.

I'm talking about electing a European economic government. I did not mention cultural and political union. Even though I am in favour of the latter (the former is meaningless) that's irrelevant here.

But where does that leave the little countries like Ireland? How much approval will our corporate tax fancy footwork find among larger and more powerful countries...?

People talk about corporation tax as though it were the be-all and end-all. It's important, very important in fact, but it isn't the most serious prospect on the table. The most serious prospect on the table is survival of the Euro.

Nobody is seriously tabling fiscal union just to have a go at out CT rate. That's absurd. We don't even know if it's a serious consideration, and it isn't clear what it would have to do with a debt brake or its equivalent 'automatic penalty' for budgetary irresponsibility, which is what we mean by fiscal union.

Doc Ruby · 09-12-2011 1:37am

later10 wrote: »

People talk about corporation tax as though it were the be-all and end-all. It's important, very important in fact, but it isn't the most serious prospect on the table. The most serious prospect on the table is survival of the Euro.

We were reaping the benefits of our corporate tax rate before there was a euro, so let me ask you a question - without our corporate tax rate and access to the single market, why the hell would we want anything to do with Europe? If its not of profit to Ireland, why should we care?

mikom · 09-12-2011 2:19am

later10 wrote: »

Dublin has different history and different languages to the Gaeltachai, what on Earth do languages and respective histories have to do with anything? These are nonsensical, and arbitrary divisions that nationalists like to use to explain why their country is so incomparable with all others. It doesn't really mean anything in real life.

Объясните, почему их страна так несравненной со всеми другими?
Ну холод сибирской зимы не может быть по сравнению с холодом ирландской зимы.
Да, язык такой бессмысленный и произвольного деления.

K-9 · 09-12-2011 2:44am

Before making your mind up, Maybe wait and see if there'll be a treaty first, then wait until the wording.

Voting No before a Referendum is even announced or the wording is seen is rather stupid.

Maybe then people wouldn't change their mind and make us look dim.

later12 · 09-12-2011 8:58am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

We were reaping the benefits of our corporate tax rate before there was a euro, so let me ask you a question - without our corporate tax rate and access to the single market, why the hell would we want anything to do with Europe? If its not of profit to Ireland, why should we care?

What are you talking about? The CT rate and the single market have absolutely nothing to do with the Euro.

The advantages and disadvantages of Euro membership are completely different. You do know this?

The Highwayman · 09-12-2011 9:08am

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

foxyboxer · 09-12-2011 10:10am

The Highwayman wrote: »

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

....there's no limit!

Doc Ruby · 09-12-2011 10:31am

later10 wrote: »

What are you talking about? The CT rate and the single market have absolutely nothing to do with the Euro.

The advantages and disadvantages of Euro membership are completely different. You do know this?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

We were reaping the benefits of our corporate tax rate before there was a euro

Do they put reading lessons in first year economics?

Seriously though the euro is a nice to have, not a have to have. CT and single market access which despite your determined protestations will without a shadow of a doubt be linked to the euro by anyone in authority in Europe should a decision be required from the electorate, are must haves.

Run_to_da_hills · 09-12-2011 10:41am

I say vote NO

Where are all those fcuking jobs from the last referendum that they promised us?

No on principal.

SEPT 23 1989 · 09-12-2011 10:45am

Europe's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity

sensibleken · 09-12-2011 10:48am

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I say vote NO

Where are all those fcuking jobs from the last referendum that they promised us?

No on principal.

If youre going to make up your mind on a complex international treaty between 27 countries on the basis of IBEC posters, or coir ones for that matter, then you deserve to be manipulated.

Its a referendum, in this situation you are the legislature. its nobody elses responsibility but yours to educate yourself.

force eleven · 09-12-2011 11:24am

Doesn't matter.Ireland doesn't matter. You vill vote und vote until you vote Yes.

Needs to be a referendum on continued EU membership to be honest.

Liam Byrne · 09-12-2011 11:30am

Ah yes - a referendum on this, but none on the disastrous bank guarantee & bailout ?

And I wonder if this will be a "repeat until you get it 'right'" fiasco as usual ?

Another EU referendum on the way

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