UFC 140 - Jones vs. Machida - 10th Dec. Spoilers inside

cowzerp

Look you threw the not understanding how I don't see your view at me and my response just highlights how silly that is-everyone could use that whenever there in disagreement and all decent debate would end.

I did read the thread and it did read like you where been smart, im been called silly for comparing chuck etc but in reality in comparing success and there just. Names to make a point.

Anyway im off to bed, goodnight

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

Look you threw the not understanding how I don't see your view at me and my response just highlights how silly that is-everyone could use that whenever there in disagreement and all decent debate would end.

No, not at all. Because, if you had stated that earlier in the thread you understood a phenomenon, there would be no need for me to question whether you understood or not, don't you agree?

Also, I didn't say you didn't see my view, I said i didn't understand that you couldn't acknowledge the existence of the phenomenon whereby some people might now like someone on the basis of them being the best. I'm sure you know this exists and that's why i said i didn't understand why you were claiming it didn't. (But of course, if you don't think that this phenomenon exists, i'm open to correction).

Picking out 2 exceptions doesn't prove anything. in fact, there were MANY Fedor detractors when he was at the top of his game.

I did read the thread and it did read like you where been smart, in been called silly for comparing chuck etc but in reality in comparing success and there just. Names to make a point.

Well if it helps i never meant to call YOU silly, just the sentiment that you would compare Jones to 2 of the most successful MMA fighters of all time.

Again, I understand where people are coming from, but I think that because it's Jones people are singling him out. This POV is magnified by the fact that NOT ONE poster has addressed by question as to why this never happened to Tito when he left the choke on Bader, Dodson when TKOd Bedford and all of the numerous instances of when a fighter COULD'VE done things differently but didn't.

DeVore

You put forward the theory that he is disliked because he is successful and talented.

Cowzerp has pointed out two examples where that isnt true meaning that cant be the whole story.


Not being smart but I'm not sure what part of this isnt clear

DeV.

MrStuffins

DeVore wrote: »

You put forward the theory that he is disliked because he is successful and talented.

Cowzerp has pointed out two examples where that isnt true meaning that cant be the whole story.


Not being smart but I'm not sure what part of this isnt clear

DeV.

And your point is what exactly?

I never said it was the "whole story" as you pointed out. On multiple occasions i've said that his actions might be EXAGGERATED because of this. I never once said he gets flack ONLY because he is talented.

Also, nowhere did I say that ALL fighters are hated because they are successful and pointing out 2 examples proves nothng. Just like if I pointed out examples of other fighters who WERE hated because they were talented, it would do nothing to say the opposite.

Again, i'll make myself clear. Some people hate irrationally and in the case of sport someone's talent and success can attract this kind of hate.

I'm presuming this post from earlier in the thread is you confirming that some people DO hate Jones because he is talented correct?

DeVore wrote: »

Just because people hate him because he's talented, doesn't mean the other criticisms of him aren't valid.

Mr. Loverman

Who cares?

Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives.

MrStuffins

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Who cares?

Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives.

Everytime I mentally read your username it goes like this "Mr.Loverman.. SHABBA!"

I can't help it!

RebelSoul

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Who cares?

Stop arguing on the internet and get on with your lives.

Carlsberg don't do sensible internet posts but if they did.....

cowzerp

Been talented makes them more famous and more in the spotlight, so when they do bad stuff or fight boring it is more public, there is Tons of boring fighters and others who do nasty stuff, but like football, no one wants to talk about 2nd division players, I think I'm beating a dead horse here but been famous/talented has them fighting main events but there is underlying reasons why they may be disliked, Frankie Edgar seems universally liked too as does dos santos who don't really give you any reason to dislike them, except talent that is

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

Been talented makes them more famous and more in the spotlight, so when they do bad stuff or fight boring it is more public, there is Tons of boring fighters and others who do nasty stuff, but like football, no one wants to talk about 2nd division players, I think I'm beating a dead horse here but been famous/talented has them fighting main events but there is underlying reasons why they may be disliked, Frankie Edgar seems universally liked too as does dos santos who don't really give you any reason to dislike them, except talent that is

It's like you're agreeing with me but you just don't know it :pac:

cowzerp

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's like you're agreeing with me but you just don't know it :pac:

OK That's what i'm doing

Jason McCabe

I like big bones think he is one of the most talented and exciting fighters that I've ever seen

I just was not impressed with his lack of regard for his opponent

Do I still like him, yes. Though a little black tick went against his name

El Guapo!

Jason McCabe wrote: »

I like big bones...

Whatever you're into! :pac:


Jones does himself no favours by the way he acts lately. There's a fine line between being cocky and being arrogant and I think he's crossed it. The Machida fight only made things worse for him and he seems to be losing fans at a fast rate.

I think his arrogance and his treatment of Machida are the main reasons why people dislike him. Plus the way he goes on about inner peace and enlightenment and all that stuff can get irritating.

But I do think there is also an aspect of hating him for his talent. Usually in fighting sports, some people tend to dislike a fighter who makes an astoundingly fast rise to the top (like Jones did). I don't know whether it's jealousy or the fact that this young nobody is coming in from nowhere and destroying their idols, but it does happen.
They're always waiting for the next fight when they're sure he'll be beaten and proven to be the fraud they suspect him to be. They then put up the argument that he wouldn't have a hope against the old boys when they were in their prime. You can never win an argument against the haters.

DeVore

But I *dont* hope he's beaten.


What I *hope* is that he cops on!
He could be the greatest champ ever *and* a great ambassador.

DeV.

El Guapo!

DeVore wrote: »

But I *dont* hope he's beaten.


What I *hope* is that he cops on!
He could be the greatest champ ever *and* a great ambassador.

DeV.

He was certainly shaping up to be a great asset for the UFC and he could also be a fantastic champ if he did cop on.
Thing is though, it might take a good hiding for him to cop on, but there doesn't seem to be anyone at 205 at the minute that's capable of that.
He's buying into his own hype and it could well be his downfall.

themandan6611

Jones is a beast, 1st round he sussed Machida out, 2nd he had him marked and broke him, as for letting him drop, mmmm no big deal in the Jones story, for those who have ever heard him speak he seems like a nice guy.

walshb

I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

pauldoo

walshb wrote: »

I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

whats the alternative, mir should stop and say "i might break his arm" and then the ref declare mir the winner? if anyone is to blame, its nog. You cant just stop when you have someone in a bad place, look at GSP v Hardy, GSP looked like he was goin to break hardys arm on 3 occasions(i think) but hardy escaped each time

Mr. Loverman

walshb wrote: »

I assume this thread relates to the arm break incident?

My view: That was atrocious. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. He deliberately broke a man's arm, and why, because the guy wouldn't tap out? That doesn't cut it. Will anyone face consequences for this?

When a submission is taking place, the fighter on the receiving end has to tap out when he wants it to stop. This is the rule and every fighter understands it.

Nog is responsible for Nog. Mir should not be held responsible for Nog's behaviour.

walshb

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

When a submission is taking place, the fighter on the receiving end has to tap out when he wants it to stop. This is the rule and every fighter understands it.

Nog is responsible for Nog. Mir should not be held responsible for Nog's behaviour.

Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

Ush1

walshb wrote: »

Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

If the ref sees a broken limb he will stop it any way, won't make any difference to what you're saying.

Actually, the ref can stop the fight if the fighter shouts in pain too loudly but it is fairly controversial. Shane Roller lost to TJ Grant in this way by basically grunting too loud in an attempted arm bar. This is explained to the fighters before hand.

Nog knew the score and was too proud to tap. I've heard he has got criticism in Brazil for not tapping earlier.

nino1

walshb wrote: »

Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

nog made the decision not to tap, end of story. It's not up to mir to give up the win due to nog's stuborness. a broken arm isn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bones heal and he will be back training in 6 months.
again, his decision not to tap.

chickendinner

walshb wrote: »

Soem people need protecting from themselves. The whole "he should have tapped out" doesn't cut it. Is there any humanity left, compassion and moral judgment. He broke the man's arm deliberately. Sometimes rules should come second to decency and sportsmanship and judgment.

If you dont like the idea of his arm being broke

this sport isnt for you.



Why dont you watch this video of Frank Mir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7FrTkM2SXY

horsemeat

pauldoo wrote: »

whats the alternative, mir should stop and say "i might break his arm" and then the ref declare mir the winner? if anyone is to blame, its nog. You cant just stop when you have someone in a bad place, look at GSP v Hardy, GSP looked like he was goin to break hardys arm on 3 occasions(i think) but hardy escaped each time

wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

walshb

chickendinner wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of his arm being broke

this sport isnt for you.



Why dont you watch this video of Frank Mir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7FrTkM2SXY

Therein lies the problem; if folks are okay with arms being deliberately broken as all part of the sport, then really, is it a sport?

walshb

nino1 wrote: »

nog made the decision not to tap, end of story. It's not up to mir to give up the win due to nog's stuborness. a broken arm isn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bones heal and he will be back training in 6 months.
again, his decision not to tap.

Isn't serious? All breaks equal, are they? It is serious when a man deliberately chooses to inflict that type of pain and injury onto another human being.

I know accidents/injury can occur in any combat sport. But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it. Won't tap, **** him, I am breaking his arm?

I am also aware that the sport is about physical contact and that involves pain. But, what that guy did crossed the line into barbarism. He chose to cause serious pain to a man who needed someone protecting him. All to get a win beside his name?

chickendinner

walshb wrote: »

Therein lies the problem; if folks are okay with arms being deliberately broken as all part of the sport, then really, is it a sport?

In boxing, brain damage occurs, what are you getting at.
Lets all play tiddlywinks.

Are you a big troll?

Nog had ample time to tap. He did not. That is on him.

Fighters going for submissions with a conscience, sets a dangerous precedent for fighters never tapping out.

Watch the video.

walshb

chickendinner wrote: »

In boxing, brain damage occurs, what are you getting at.
Lets all play tiddlywinks.

Are you a big troll?

Nog had ample time to tap. He did not. That is on him.

Fighters going for submissions with a conscience, sets a dangerous precendent for fighters never tapping out.

Watch the video.

I'm out. Anyone who comes out with the troll card because of a disagreement doesn't deserve a reply.

Fear Uladh

walshb wrote: »

But, I abhore that kind of deliberate inflicting of pain for the sake of it.

FFS.

Why don't they just get padded up and have a few pillow fights then?:rolleyes:

walshb

Fear Uladh wrote: »

FFS.

Why don't they just get padded up and have a few pillow fights then?:rolleyes:

Bit extreme that, eh?

Read what I write, please.

walshb

horsemeat wrote: »

wrong. GSP gave up the submissions because he knew hardy wasnt going to tap and gsp didnt want to break his arm. he Said it after the fight. not a massive fan of him but he's a real class act.

This is what I admire. I love boxing, but I abhore violence. I also admire a man who can show compassion. I know in MMA and boxing this is difficult to do, I know this, but it does not mean that I excuse every instance as "just part of the sport."