Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

pat_mas

.ak wrote: »

It's gonna be ridiculously tight. Is Bordeaux a rugby town? Like, will there be a lot of French neutrals turning up?

The answer is YES (its team is Begles-Bordeaux). Plus there will be supporters coming from the Landes & Pays Basque, some from Agen, some from Toulouse and of course a lot from Clermont.
Bordeaux is the main city of the sud-ouest, home of the rugby in France

French neutrals ... do such things exist !?!

totallegend

Just if anyone is interested, Leinster are guaranteed to remain as #1 ranked team in Europe next year, regardless of what happens in the remaining games.

The minimum points they can end up with, losing to Clermont, is 36 which would put them well ahead of Toulouse who will start next season second with 27.

Munster will still remain one of the top seeds for next year's HC; 23 points will see them third in the rankings, unless Biarritz can win the Amlin in which case Munster drop to fourth.

Biarritz are guaranteed a top six ranking, however they will probably need to win the Amlin to qualify for the HC next year.

If Clermont reach the final, they will also nail down a top six spot (20 points if runner-up, 22 if victorious). Losing to Leinster would keep them out of the top seeds.

Ulster cannot break into the top six as the maximum they can earn is 19 points which would leave them behind Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Cardiff and Northampton. Cardiff and NH will each have 20 points.

However, if Biarritz do not qualify for the HC next season (see above), Ulster could still sneak into the top seeds (but would need to beat Leinster in the final to do so).

Clear? Good.

Edit: And of course, if Leinster or Ulster win the HC, Connacht qualify for the HC, but if Clermont win the HC, the next highest ERC ranking non-French club will get in, which based on current standings is Bath. And this will all go out the window if Italy can't get a second team together for next year.

Podge_irl

If Clermont win the HEC does not the 7th placed team in the T14 go into the comp next year? That would be Stade.

totallegend

Podge_irl wrote: »

If Clermont win the HEC does not the 7th placed team in the T14 go into the comp next year? That would be Stade.

Possibly; my head was swimming by the time I got to the end of that post.

Edit: you're right, earlier post corrected

conf101

totallegend wrote: »

Ulster cannot break into the top six as the maximum they can earn is 19 points which would leave them behind Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Biarritz, Cardiff and Northampton. Cardiff and NH will each have 20 points.

AFAIK the winner of the Heineken Cup is automatically top seed the following year so winning the competition is Ulster's only way of being top seed next year.

DeDoc

totallegend wrote: »

Possibly; my head was swimming by the time I got to the end of that post.

Edit: you're right, earlier post corrected

Not quite - France are already guaranteed seven teams (the max they can have) as a result of having a French winner of the Challenge Cup. The French nominees will be the four semi-finalists plus the winners of the HEC and ECC. If either of the latter two isn't applicable (i.e. not won by a French side) OR the winner is also relegated - the next teams based on league finishing position qualify - in effect it will be the French top 7 who go through.
If Ulster or Leinster win the HEC, then Connacht qualify. If either Embra or Clermont win, it will be Wasps who go through as the highest seeded team who didn't otherwise qualify.

[Jackass]

Let's just get past Clermont (and Edinburgh) first, then we can start looking at this! :pac:

The All-Ireland final dream is SO close. I hope more than anything we both make it.

I'd be vary wary of Ulster in a Heineken Cup final.

on a side note, dream group next season: Leinster, Edinburgh, Gloucester & Castres
Nightmare group: Leinster, Haqrlequins, Ospreys & Monpellier

Actually, with Tolouse and Clermont being top seeds, and the seedings starting to take realistic shape (i.e no amazing teams as 3rd or 4th seeds, like Clermont were...good teams like Toloun etc. in 2nd seeds where they probably should be etc.) the possible groups aren't that bad...

vienne86

totallegend wrote: »

Possibly; my head was swimming by the time I got to the end of that post.

Edit: you're right, earlier post corrected

But if Stade were to win the Amlin, which is not that unlikely, they would get in to the Heineken Cup in their own right.

Quint2010

A load more seats seemed have been released for the final at Twickenham.

.ak

I've got my flights and accommodation booked, but I'm not jinxing anything by buying tickets for it yet.... Besides, if I'm there as a neutral, I don't mind where I sit frankly.

eire4

[Jackass] wrote: »

Let's just get past Clermont (and Edinburgh) first, then we can start looking at this! :pac:

The All-Ireland final dream is SO close. I hope more than anything we both make it.

I'd be vary wary of Ulster in a Heineken Cup final.

on a side note, dream group next season: Leinster, Edinburgh, Gloucester & Castres
Nightmare group: Leinster, Haqrlequins, Ospreys & Monpellier

Actually, with Tolouse and Clermont being top seeds, and the seedings starting to take realistic shape (i.e no amazing teams as 3rd or 4th seeds, like Clermont were...good teams like Toloun etc. in 2nd seeds where they probably should be etc.) the possible groups aren't that bad...

Leinster playing Ulster in the final would be the ideal scenario. But I think it will be difficult for either team. Ulster have to be on a huge high after causing the upset in beating Munster in Thomond Park but they will really have to be careful about not having a let down against Edinburgh. Lets be fair both teams have to be looking at the match up and saying thats winable.
For Leinster it will be a huge ask to go to France and win on the road against Clermont. Not impossible and this Leinster team is good enough to pull it off on merit. But only a really vintage Leinster performance will be enough I feel.

totallegend

Nerdy stat alert!

In 7 previous seasons, we have got to the knockout stages with the possibility of an all-Irish final; 1999, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007, 2010, 2011

In two of those years, two Irish teams have made the semis, 2003 & 2010.

The all-Irish final has yet to happen...

Morf

eire4 wrote:

Ulster have to be on a huge high after causing the upset in beating Munster in Thomond Park but they will really have to be careful about not having a let down against Edinburgh.

The opposite applies even more so.

Toulouse have far more European pedigree than Munster.

CiaranMT

Morf wrote: »

The opposite applies even more so.

Toulouse have far more European pedigree than Munster.

Hmmm?

Morf

Surely Edinburgh will be on a high after their victory so the risk of complacency doesn't apply only to Ulster.

durkadurka

He means embra knocked over an even bigger European giant in Toulouse.

CiaranMT

Gotcha now.

[Jackass]

I think that was a once in a decade game for Edinburgh though. Can you imagine lads who play in a graveyard week in week out, in front of maybe 3,000 people, running out on the biggest day in the clubs history, in front of 35,000 home fans, completely written off as underdogs, and having a fairly basic game plan that if applied correctly, can strangle the life out of Tolouse.

I think Tolouse were planning flights and accomodation for Dublin in the dressing room, because they were completely caught off gaurd and didn't count on a william wallace-esq effort from the Scots. And it was typical Scottish rugby, extremely aggressive, limited and lateral, but if you get dragged into the dog fight and trenches, that's exactly where they want you.

I think Lansdowne and Ulster will be different. There is a lot of pressure on Ulster, because really I think it would take an implosion not to comfortably waltz into the Heineken Cup final.

Leinster had 3 Heineken Cup starting players in the squad last night against 10 (iirc) players in the Edinburgh starting lineup from the game against Tolouse, and the Leinster kids put a half century on them.

I think their league position is far more reflective of their ability than their European position. IMO it's a freak turn of events that's got them there, I don't mean to be disrespectful of them, but with the exception of that once in a lifetime do or die game against Tolouse, they've had pretty limited oppisition in the competition and haven't looked great throughout.

Maybe harsh, but I think Ulster are a different class and will be extremely comfortable.

Leinster on the other hand,I think that game will be a classic and extremely tight. The two form teams in Europe imo, I think it's a massive ask to win there, but Leinsters away form has been good this season (better than our home form in fact!!) and as Cian Healy said before the Quarters "We don't care where we play, as long as we're still in it."

Game on.

ray jay

Ulster beat Edinburgh by 22 points in both their Pro12 meetings this year. I would be amazed if they had trouble against them in the semi.

TomLamp

Clermont v Leinster is the real final.

Heart says Leinster, head says Clermont. They're playing just as well as Leinster and have home(ish) advantage.

Fishooks12

I'd love the build-up on sky to an all Irish final in Twickers!

Podge_irl

Dunno if Clermont are playing just as well. Their homeish but their form away from SMM is iffy and is terrible in the HEC

Hagz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'd love the build-up on sky to an all Irish final in Twickers!

Same, they seem to really appreciate the level at which Irish clubs are playing.

Red Tipp

Fishooks 12. Barnes would have trouble swallowing that one

liammur

How many times did Ulster get into Munster's 22? Once I believe for that try which came from nothing.

Are they a good side, or am I missing something ?

Fishooks12

liammur wrote: »

How many times did Ulster get into Munster's 22? Once I believe for that try which came from nothing.

Are they a good side, or am I missing something ?

They had a game plan, which worked very well

Ulster have a lot more in terms of attacking play than they showed in the quarter

I expect to see a more expansive game plan against Edinburgh

irishbucsfan

liammur wrote: »

How many times did Ulster get into Munster's 22? Once I believe for that try which came from nothing.

Are they a good side, or am I missing something ?

When you have a lead like Ulsters' you don't have to attack. As they showed.

liammur

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When you have a lead like Ulsters' you don't have to attack. As they showed.

I agree, but a 6pt lead is dangerous. I think it's the most average semi final pairing since at least 1999.

irishbucsfan

liammur wrote: »

I agree, but a 6pt lead is dangerous. I think it's the most average semi final pairing since at least 1999.

Munster Biarritz were pretty average in 2010 as well. I'd put Ulster on par with them and Edinburgh behind them, so probably is the weakest semi in a long while.

liammur

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Munster Biarritz were pretty average in 2010 as well. I'd put Ulster on par with them and Edinburgh behind them, so probably is the weakest semi in a long while.

That Biarritz team would blow this Ulster team away