Heineken Cup - General Discussion Thread

bamboozle

Gerry Thornley raises an interesting point today by suggesting top 10 in the Rabo league get HC spots, rather than being guaranteed via country.

i think something is going to have to give over the next few seasons, with Aironi gone and welsh sides being decimated with player losses it will be harder to justify the english and Top 14 leagues not having greater HC representation.

Podge_irl

bamboozle wrote: »

it will be harder to justify the english and Top 14 leagues not having greater HC representation.

Considering the semi-finals are 3/4 Rabo teams I fail to see how. On top of which, the English and French both get twice the representation of the other countries already - the fact that they are all in the same league is incidental.

The ERC is made up of the 6 unions and none of them are going to vote to voluntarily cut their representation.

tolosenc

In the last 3 semis:

9 Rabo
4 France
3 England

The Rabo is the strongest league...

WeeBushy

tolosenc wrote: »

In the last 3 semis:

9 Rabo
4 France
3 England

The Rabo is the strongest league...

While I think the Rabo is stronger than the Premiership and as strong as the Top 14, I don't think that's a fair stat to use. The Rabo has almost as many teams in the competition as France and England combined. A percentage of teams from each league getting to the Semis might be a fairer representation.

durkadurka

tolosenc wrote: »

In the last 3 semis:

9 Rabo
4 France
3 England

The Rabo is the strongest league...

So, eh 16 semi finalists in three years then?

skregs

tolosenc wrote: »

In the last 3 semis:

9 Rabo
4 France
3 England

The Rabo is the strongest league...

2012: Embra, Leinster, Ulster, Clermont
2011: Leinster, Saints, Toulouse, Perpignan
2010: Leinster, Toulouse, Biarritz, Munster

6 CL (4 teams)
5 T14 (3 teams)
1 AP

Gervais has a point though. Over in the Ulster thread, they're talking about dropping the league campaign to focus on the HEC. AP and T14 teams don't have that option if they want to get into the H-Cup so they can't really get by with the same 15 players every week.

It won't ever happen though because scotland and italy will never support it, and wales might refuse it too (so could the IRFU if they thought they'd lose money).
If it ever happened, I reckon the WRU would look to join the AP instead, and the Pro 12 would be destroyed

Podge_irl

skregs wrote: »

If it ever happened, I reckon the WRU would look to join the AP instead, and the Pro 12 would be destroyed

The Welsh have been looking to join the AP for year, the English don't want them.

justsomebloke

skregs wrote: »

Gervais has a point though. Over in the Ulster thread, they're talking about dropping the league campaign to focus on the HEC. AP and T14 teams don't have that option if they want to get into the H-Cup so they can't really get by with the same 15 players every week.

If Ulster where in the same position they are in the AP as they are currently in the Rabo they wouldn't need to worry about qualification either as they are guaranteed a top 6 finish in the Rabo. So they could still cut their loses and aim for a HEC win if they were in the AP

bamboozle

Podge_irl wrote: »

The Welsh have been looking to join the AP for year, the English don't want them.

and the welsh teams would then need to be top 6 (or whatever) in the AP to qualify for the HC and earn decent $$$ so that's not too attractive to them either.

my worry is with welsh regions weakening over the next 2 seasons and arioni disappearing, the irish/scottish teams will put out 2nd strings for Rabo and focus on mininum 6 HC games.

which would in turn see weak teams in the HC and arguably stronger French and english teams missing out on the HC and the parker pen shield becoming stronger in relation to the HC.

Of course the teams in the rabo might be faced with giving qualification to top 8/9/10 teams in the league to HC to ensure competitiveness.

Flincher

According to Michael Corcoran on twitter, Poite is reffing Ulster v Edinburgh, and Barnes has been given Clermont v Leinster.

I give up.

.ak

Flincher wrote: »

According to Michael Corcoran on twitter, Poite is reffing Ulster v Edinburgh, and Barnes has been given Clermont v Ulster.

Accountability me hole.

Jaysus... Poor Ulster! :eek:

Flincher

.ak wrote: »

Jaysus... Poor Ulster! :eek:

They should have a good shot of getting into the final now. They're bound to win at least one of those games.

Podge_irl

bamboozle wrote: »

and the welsh teams would then need to be top 6 (or whatever) in the AP to qualify for the HC

No they wouldn't. As far as I'm aware HEC qualification is distributed by union, not by league. The WRU would still have 3 places - it would be no different from the current set up in the Pro12.

Coburger

The problem with the RD is that it's not really a proper league with first team players participating in it. How many games has Sexton, O'Connell O'Gara played in this year?
The RD is just a warm up for the Heineken Cup so I can understand why French and English clubs feel somewhat aggrieved.

Coburger

Hey, could there be a similar format for the semi-final of the Heineken Cup with a home and away games being played on a Wednesday?

This is the only way to make it fair. Leinster got lucky last year but this year a trip to Bordeux! Or perhaps the top seeds get to play their games at home?

Quint2010

Happy enough with Barnes. Certainly not a home town ref . As evidenced at this years Ireland V Wales match when he wrongly gave a match deciding decision against the home team in the last minute..

tolosenc

Quint2010 wrote: »

Happy enough with Barnes. Certainly not a home town ref . As evidenced at this years Ireland V Wales match when he wrongly gave a match deciding decision against the home team in the last minute..

I'd be happy with that!

irishbucsfan

Coburger wrote: »

Hey, could there be a similar format for the semi-final of the Heineken Cup with a home and away games being played on a Wednesday?

This is the only way to make it fair. Leinster got lucky last year but this year a trip to Bordeux! Or perhaps the top seeds get to play their games at home?

This has been discussed many times. 2-leg games don't work in rugby.

Using group seedlings favours teams with easy groups too much.

Having a draw evens out the chances and makes it fair. Just as likely leinster would be home or away this year, they just got unlucky.

tolosenc

Basically, the only thing between us and the Cup next year is the semi-final draw and/or a catastrophic collapse...

molloyjh

Coburger wrote: »

The problem with the RD is that it's not really a proper league with first team players participating in it. How many games has Sexton, O'Connell O'Gara played in this year?
The RD is just a warm up for the Heineken Cup so I can understand why French and English clubs feel somewhat aggrieved.

The obvious flaw in your logic being that they weren't available due to the player welfare programme and not because Leinster or Munster decided not to select them.

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

The obvious flaw in your logic being that they weren't available due to the player welfare programme and not because Leinster or Munster decided not to select them.

The welfare scheme is never implemented for a HEC game but always for Rabo games so what does that say about the Rabo?

I was looking earlier at the team make up for Munsters group in the HEC. Munster played 2 players in the first Rabo game back after the first HEC games that played the previous game (i.e. in the HEC), Lanelli played 7, and Northampton played 13 for their Aviva game.

For the third HEC game pool game both Munster and Lanelli played 3 players who had played the previous Rabo game, Northampton played 10 from their previous Aviva game.

Of course this isn't an indepth study or anything like that but you can see and prob already know that Rabo teams rest players after and before HEC games alot more often than Aviva Premiership teams can afford to do.

Dylan Hartley has played in 15 games for Northampton this season whereas Rory Best has only played in 11. Two of these were after Hartley was banned for biting Ferris. I can't remember if Best missed games through injury but if not it shows how competitive the Aviva is in comparison to the Rabo.

Currently the way Rabo teams approach their domestic league is almost as a facilitator for the HEC. This is not the case in the Aviva or the Top 14.

davidpfitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Using group seedlings favours teams with easy groups too much.

The way the soccer used to do it in European competitions was good - seeding is done off the results of the matches from your pool, besides those results against the lowest place team. So, if your group has whipping boys it doesn't help for your seeding.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

The welfare scheme is never implemented for a HEC game but always for Rabo games so what does that say about the Rabo?

That it's on during the international windows unlike the HEC? Sexton didn't get back from NZ until the middle of October. In the 16 weeks between then and the 6 Nations he played 9. In the 4 weeks since the end of the 6 Nations he's played 2. So of 20 weeks being available he's played in 11 of those weeks. And at least 3 of those weeks he was understandly being rested (2 weeks after the RWC & 1 week after the 6 Nations). Add to that the fact he was injured for at least 1 week (Montpellier at home) then that's realistically 5 weeks of 20 he was available but wasn't selected.

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

That it's on during the international windows unlike the HEC? Sexton didn't get back from NZ until the middle of October. In the 16 weeks between then and the 6 Nations he played 9. In the 4 weeks since the end of the 6 Nations he's played 2. So of 20 weeks being available he's played in 11 of those weeks. And at least 3 of those weeks he was understandly being rested (2 weeks after the RWC & 1 week after the 6 Nations). Add to that the fact he was injured for at least 1 week (Montpellier at home) then that's realistically 5 weeks of 20 he was available but wasn't selected.

They're all good points but I think the Ulster situation for the home Munster match might be a better example of what I'm trying to get at. The below is quoted from the Ulster website before the away Leinster match on Stephen's Day:

"With two games in the space of just four days, McLaughlin has had to make full use of his entire squad over the festive period."
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/9958.php

If you remember this game the Ulster team was very weak and had none of the first team players. Away to Leinster with 2 games in such a short period it had people pissed but still they could somewhat understand what was going on.

For the home Munster match 4 days later the below is quoted from the Ulster website:

"Not available due to IRFU Player Management Programme: Tom Court, Rory Best, Stephen Ferris, Andrew Trimble"
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/9964.php

and from the Munster website:
"Unavailable for selection - IRFU player management policy: Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara, Keith Earls"
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9915.php

Both of these games would have been table top games and could have been great matches. They weren't though.

Ulster's previous two games before the Leinster games were Aironi home and away in the HEC where they won by 26 and 21 points. Ulster have beaten Aironi in the Rabo by 39 (h), 6 (a), 24 (h), and 3 (a) points so why wasn't the home HEC match against Aironi used for the player welfare scheme?

In my opinion because the IRFU and the ERC would never allow that to happen, it's perfectly ok though for it to happen in the Rabo against the play off contender teams.

molloyjh

CatFromHue wrote: »

They're all good points but I think the Ulster situation for the home Munster match might be a better example of what I'm trying to get at. The below is quoted from the Ulster website before the away Leinster match on Stephen's Day:

"With two games in the space of just four days, McLaughlin has had to make full use of his entire squad over the festive period."
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/9958.php

If you remember this game the Ulster team was very weak and had none of the first team players. Away to Leinster with 2 games in such a short period it had people pissed but still they could somewhat understand what was going on.

For the home Munster match 4 days later the below is quoted from the Ulster website:

"Not available due to IRFU Player Management Programme: Tom Court, Rory Best, Stephen Ferris, Andrew Trimble"
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/9964.php

and from the Munster website:
"Unavailable for selection - IRFU player management policy: Donncha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara, Keith Earls"
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/9915.php

Both of these games would have been table top games and could have been great matches. They weren't though.

Ulster's previous two games before the Leinster games were Aironi home and away in the HEC where they won by 26 and 21 points. Ulster have beaten Aironi in the Rabo by 39 (h), 6 (a), 24 (h), and 3 (a) points so why wasn't the home HEC match against Aironi used for the player welfare scheme?

In my opinion because the IRFU and the ERC would never allow that to happen, it's perfectly ok though for it to happen in the Rabo against the play off contender teams.

In the Rabo Ulster played Aironi in Italy during the RWC but played in Belfast after the 6 Nations with a full strength squad...

http://www.rabodirectpro12.com/matchcentre/2648.php?section=lineups&fixid=159008

Poor example maybe given that they were building up to their HEC QF, but the simple fact is that HEC games generate more interest and therefore more money. With such limited availability of players due to the welfare programme it only makes sense to have your top squad on show for those games. Even if they are against weaker sides. This will then have an impact on the rest of the league depending on how the fixtures are scheduled. The player welfare programme doesn't work based on the opposition each province face, but rather game time over periods of time. And with 2 HEC games in December and 2 in January there's no way players will get much time in Rabo games over those 2 months.

Isn't that why the HEC is scheduled the way it is anyway? To fit in with the international fixtures and ensure as many top players are available as possible for the games? The league doesnt have the same luxury and it's hardly the IRFUs fault that the Pro12 fixtures list is the way it is.

CatFromHue

molloyjh wrote: »

the simple fact is that HEC games generate more interest and therefore more money. With such limited availability of players due to the welfare programme it only makes sense to have your top squad on show for those games. Even if they are against weaker sides. This will then have an impact on the rest of the league depending on how the fixtures are scheduled. The player welfare programme doesn't work based on the opposition each province face, but rather game time over periods of time. And with 2 HEC games in December and 2 in January there's no way players will get much time in Rabo games over those 2 months.

Coburger wrote: »

The problem with the RD is that it's not really a proper league with first team players participating in it.

Sounds like you might be agreeing with Coburger after all

greendom

Leinster7 wrote: »

Clermont are in for a shock in 2 wkds time. We are going to steamroll them and then Ulster in the final.

Do you really think Clermont are likely to under-estimate Leinster; a team appearing in their first HEC semi-final playing against a team of Leinster's pedigree. If anything it will be the other way round.

.ak

This seemed to go under the radar...

Yoann Maestri due in court after allegedly assaulting a fan in Edinburgh...

irishbucsfan

It was in the papers here anyway.

.ak

Totally missed it. I think this is probably a by-product of selling cheap tickets. Whilst it's nice to fill a stadium, you gotta ask who's doing the filling.... Apparently the Edinburgh 'fans' near their dugout were very abusive.