British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Answer the question based on what you'd do based on your decency and principles.

I really don't understand your resistance to this question.

Why should I give an answer when you don't? Seems odd but here goes. Why should I remember those victims when the Republican movement doesn't remember the victims from our community? There shall be no remembrance on this side of the fence.

gurramok

InTheTrees wrote: »

Who's forcing you to abide?



Go to the Irish War memorial and give thanks to Irish veterans.

If you know someone in the brit armed forces then wear a poppy, if you feel sympathetic towards them. Or dont.

No-one is forcing me to abide, its implied that Irish people should. Perhaps an Irish symbol should be created to show Ireland is a mature nation and not still shackled to the previous ruler.

InTheTrees

gurramok wrote: »

Perhaps an Irish symbol should be created to show Ireland is a mature nation and not still shackled to the previous ruler.

I agree.

God knows Ireland produces some great soldiers and perhaps the ceremony in July(?) should be a larger affair.

R P McMurphy

realies wrote: »

Noticed today not one person in the inauguration of president Higgins was wearing a poppy,Its just a obeservation by me.

I think David Norris was wearing one

Seanchai

InTheTrees wrote: »

Well at least we should all be able to appreciate a good poem.

Written by a canadian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_x0M5y-EWo

Yes, and what a superb war poem In Flanders Fields is, encouraging as it does people to go to war as this stanza makes very, very clear:

"Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields."

It's laughable that people would claim this to be an "anti-war" poem. There really is no high moral ground for the poppy brigade to stand on when they try to claim this poppy stuff is about wanting peace. It never was, and it most certainly is nothing but a nauseating ex post facto glorification by the Royal British Legion of all British military exploits - invasions, massacres, murders - now.

If the (very nationalistic) apologists for the British poppy didn't claim it as an impartial internationally accepted symbol of peace when it is nothing of the sort, they wouldn't get near as much flak for this symbol of their tribe and their wars. It's not as if the British poppy commemorates Afghan, Russian or German soldiers (to take three examples of many) who died in wars, is it?

Every country commemorates its dead. The British, however, claim that their red poppy is something more than the tribal, nationalistic British commemoration which it is. That incredible British claim that their poppy is a symbol of international peace which commemorates the dead of all wars is what is most objectionable about it.

InTheTrees

Now I'm confusing myself...

(Admittedly I've been in the USA for 20 years. And before I left i was a sociopathic young man who didnt care...)

But there two War memorials in Dublin, and I'm trying to understand why. Well I can understand why... the older one was built before independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Remembrance_%28Dublin%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_War_Memorial_Gardens

LordSutch

No (I'm Irish)

R P McMurphy wrote: »

What about those that were conscripted?

I thought Nationwide (see post#1165) said they were all volunteers?

stoneill

No (I'm Irish)

InTheTrees wrote: »

Now I'm confusing myself...

(Admittedly I've been in the USA for 20 years. And before I left i was a sociopathic young man who didnt care...)

But there two War memorials in Dublin, and I'm trying to understand why. Well I can understand why... the older one was built before independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_of_Remembrance_%28Dublin%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_War_Memorial_Gardens

The Garden of Rememberance is dedicated to those who fell in the struggle for Independence and Irish Freedom.

The war memorial is for those who fell in the two world wars.

(Actually WWII was really WWI part 2.)

NinjaK

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I think David Norris was wearing one

Thank god he didnt become our president

gurramok

NinjaK wrote: »

Thank god he didnt become our president

He was associated with the Reform.org people who are Southern Unionists wanting us to rejoin the UK. So no surprise there if he did wear one.

InTheTrees

stoneill wrote: »

The Garden of Rememberance is dedicated to those who fell in the struggle for Independence and Irish Freedom.

The war memorial is for those who fell in the two world wars.

(Actually WWII was really WWI part 2.)

SO we should really just have one. For Irish soldiers who have died in War.

Any war.

R P McMurphy

LordSutch wrote: »

I thought Nationwide (see post#1165) said they were all volunteers?

There was no conscription in Ireland but certainly was in Britain. I was wondering why that Keith character was excluding those that were unfortunate enough to be forced to head off and fight

ejmaztec

Here's one from the list of 674 Co Kerry WW1 casualties:

KITCHENER OF KHARTOUM, The Right Honorable HORATIO HERBERT.
Rank: Field Marshall, Secretary of State for War. Regiment or Service: General Staff. Date of Death:05-June-1916. Age at Death,65. Born in County Kerry. Drowned.
Supplementary information; 1st Earl Kitchener of Khartoum, Viscount Kitchener, Viscount Broome and Baron Denton. Secretary of State for War. Col. Cmdt. Royal Engineers, Col. Irish Guards. Son of the late Lt-Col. Henry Horatio and Frances Kitchener. Grave or Memorial Reference: He has no known grave but is listed on the Hollybrook Memorial, in Southampton, UK.

http://www.kerrycolib.ie/www1k.asp

bobbysands81

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why should I give an answer when you don't? Seems odd but here goes. Why should I remember those victims when the Republican movement doesn't remember the victims from our community? There shall be no remembrance on this side of the fence.

So you think that an innocent child murdered in conflict is not worthy of your remembrance because they come from the wrong 'side of the fence'? That just lacks common decency.

Unionists always seem to define themselves as the opposite of what their enemies are rather than what they are, and the bit in bold seems to back that up.

citytillidie

KeithAFC wrote: »

A group which claimed and prided itself on fighting for the Irish people.

Just because they claim it does not make it true.


I see you avoid questions that your dont like the truth of

Snickers Man

realies wrote: »

Noticed today not one person in the inauguration of president Higgins was wearing a poppy,Its just a obeservation by me.

I was in downtown Dublin (Grafton St, Nassau St, College Green) at about 5:30 to 6:00pm today (Friday 11th).

I saw one person wearing a poppy. A student type with a college scarf. Registering his protest, no doubt, as the young will do.

just one. At rush hour.

Looks like it's a trend that just refuses to catch on.

Like you say: Just an observation by me.

KeithAFC

No (I'm British/not Irish)

bobbysands81 wrote: »

So you think that an innocent child murdered in conflict is not worthy of your remembrance because they come from the wrong 'side of the fence'? That just lacks common decency.

Unionists always seem to define themselves as the opposite of what their enemies are rather than what they are, and the bit in bold seems to back that up.

It is pure hypocrisy. The Republican movement doesn't do it for the Protestants who died in the defence of Ulster. So I ain't going to patronise you by pretending to do it for victims of the British Army.

Cú Giobach

KeithAFC wrote: »

It is pure hypocrisy. The Republican movement doesn't do it for the Protestants who died in the defence of Ulster. So I ain't going to patronise you by pretending to do it for victims of the British Army.

So you wouldn't even attempt to take a higher moral stance than what you believe the people you dislike have, interesting.

Judgement Day

Snickers Man wrote: »

I was in downtown Dublin (Grafton St, Nassau St, College Green) at about 5:30 to 6:00pm today (Friday 11th).

I saw one person wearing a poppy. A student type with a college scarf. Registering his protest, no doubt, as the young will do.

just one. At rush hour.

Looks like it's a trend that just refuses to catch on.

Like you say: Just an observation by me.

I suspect that you saw what you wanted and it's not 'a trend' as you put it, those of us who participate in Remembrance commemorations have done so for decades and will continue to do so. If it cheers you up, I haven't had a chance to buy a poppy this year - yet!

12.40 Just put that right - in rebel Enniscorthy too!

Madam

No (I'm Irish)

Here in Scotland it seems to be mostly elderly people who wear the poppy, not many under 40s can be seen wearing one, perhaps they buy 1 or 2 and like me lose the bloody thing or forget to change it from one coat to another;)

getz

No (I'm British/not Irish)

Madam wrote: »

Here in Scotland it seems to be mostly elderly people who wear the poppy, not many under 40s can be seen wearing one, perhaps they buy 1 or 2 and like me lose the bloody thing or forget to change it from one coat to another;)

not that many of the young have them on these days,most of the older generation who can remember the wars still are passionate about them,i noticed on the TV today that those who sailed on the russian convoys have been greeted in russia as heros and all have been given medals, i have a poppy on the front of my car as well as my coat,

Scruffles

getz wrote: »

not that many of the young have them on these days,most of the older generation who can remember the wars still are passionate about them,i noticed on the TV today that those who sailed on the russian convoys have been greeted in russia as heros and all have been given medals, i have a poppy on the front of my car as well as my coat,

have seen a very different experience in cheshire [home] and manchester [where am staying at the moment],dont know one person who hasnt got one apart from self and others am living with [a residential centre],also have got one support staff in her twenties who is extremely patriotic for soldiers-she wears red every friday [a tradition to respect soldiers apparently] and has bought an expensive gold poppy off the british legion-her boyfriend is in an irish regiment.

age isnt the issue,its because people probably dont have any personal connection to the world wars as it gets further and further away and dont realise how the money from poppies can support veterans as well as current soldiers.

from own view,am respectful of soldiers and the animals of military who risk themselves to protect others regardless of where they come from,they risk so much more when they come out of that life-such as PTSD and disabling injuries,forget the nationality they deserve the honor.

citytillidie

Just take a look at the roll call of what the British Army has done in the North

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

^^ Do we want to get started on what the IRA did up North and on mainland Britain or will we call it a tie?

A Dub in Glasgo

^^^ No, you don't as the IRA are not associated with the red Poppy

philologos

No (I'm Irish)

As has been mentioned earlier several times on this thread. The poppy can be used as a sign to focus on the futility of war. It needn't say the British Army are the best thing since sliced bread. gurramok et al will be glad to know that I didn't get one this year, but I'm not opposed to the idea of taking out a day each year to remember the futility of war. I don't see why I can't do this on November 11th.

cena

I think its a great idea. My great grandad died on a submarine

OPENROAD

getz wrote: »

not that many of the young have them on these days,most of the older generation who can remember the wars still are passionate about them,i noticed on the TV today that those who sailed on the russian convoys have been greeted in russia as heros and all have been given medals, i have a poppy on the front of my car as well as my coat,

You want to walk around Downtown Vancouver

A Dub in Glasgo

philologos wrote: »

As has been mentioned earlier several times on this thread. The poppy can be used as a sign to focus on the futility of war. It needn't say the British Army are the best thing since sliced bread. gurramok et al will be glad to know that I didn't get one this year, but I'm not opposed to the idea of taking out a day each year to remember the futility of war. I don't see why I can't do this on November 11th.

How you decide to remember the members of the British Armed Forces is a personal decision by you. What has to be challenged though is this idea that the red poppy remembers the futility of war, it does not. It remembers those who died and are injured in the British Armed Forces. If you wanted to truly remember the futility of war, you would get one of these.

OPENROAD

Same thread year after year after year after year .... more repeats than Dave