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British poppy: should the Irish commemorate people who fought for the British Empire?
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No (I'm Irish)At this time, i remember my grand uncle who died in Galipoli , at the hands of the Turks. He is buried in Cairo , Egypt, in a British War Graves Commission maintained graveyard. Who can define the real reason they went to war for Britain ? Was it for the Queen's shilling , driven by poverty and deprivation at home ? Was it a sense of freedom that drove them to demand that all men are to be free ?
Whatever the reason, i consider it appropriate that I remember my ancestors. If the wider society considers that a good thing to do, then they should be able to do it without having to be burdened by the criticism that it is some how being traitorous to Ireland.
Maybe the red poppy is not considered acceptable ? Strangely. when I was in Turkey recently, the wild poppies were everywhere, and remended me again of my ancestor. Hmmm........ They were red !
Maybe a different symbol -dedicated to the Irish who died in the Great War -might be appropriate ?
Remember just -that the freedom and democracy we enjoy today is in no small measure due to all who died in the first and second world wars.
Let's hope we never again have to suffer such a global meltdown
A.0 -
philologos wrote: »^^ Do we want to get started on what the IRA did up North and on mainland Britain or will we call it a tie?
IRA are not a state army, they were terrorists.
British Army are thugs with a state licence to act as terrorists.******
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No (I'm Irish)A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »How you decide to remember the members of the British Armed Forces is a personal decision by you. What has to be challenged though is this idea that the red poppy remembers the futility of war, it does not. It remembers those who died and are injured in the British Armed Forces. If you wanted to truly remember the futility of war, you would get one of these.
I care little for the dogmatic republicanism that you, gurramok et al expouse. Personally I don't care if you claim that I'm not really Irish or that I am a west Brit. The evidence dictates otherwise.
As for the poppy. I personally don't mind commemorating the futility of war and I think in the case of British society that it is productive that it happens on such a wide scale. Personally I'd argue that all people who have ever died at war should be remembered. Personally it matters little to me what actual side people were on. Personally it matters little to me that the money is spent on Irish & British soldiers who served with the British Army to help them get over the wounds (mental and physical) of war.
In fact, from a Christian perspective I think it is important that we take time to remember the fragility of life, and the value of human life in every form. November 11th is an internationally recognised day for doing this, we should use it.
I may think of the white ones in the future though.0 -
At this time, i remember my grand uncle who died in Galipoli , at the hands of the Turks. He is buried in Cairo , Egypt, in a British War Graves Commission maintained graveyard. Who can define the real reason they went to war for Britain ? Was it for the Queen's shilling , driven by poverty and deprivation at home ? Was it a sense of freedom that drove them to demand that all men are to be free ?
Whatever the reason, i consider it appropriate that I remember my ancestors. If the wider society considers that a good thing to do, then they should be able to do it without having to be burdened by the criticism that it is some how being traitorous to Ireland.
Maybe the red poppy is not considered acceptable ? Strangely. when I was in Turkey recently, the wild poppies were everywhere, and remended me again of my ancestor. Hmmm........ They were red !
Maybe a different symbol -dedicated to the Irish who died in the Great War -might be appropriate ?
Remember just -that the freedom and democracy we enjoy today is in no measure due to all who dies in the first and second world wars.
Let's hope we never again have to suffer such a global meltdown
A.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLAC10KFvDQ0 -
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It is you who called yourself 'not really Irish or a west Brit'. The red poppy is stained and has no relevance to the futility of war.philologos wrote: »Personally I don't care if you claim that I'm not really Irish or that I am a west Brit. The evidence dictates otherwise.As for the poppy. I personally don't mind commemorating the futility of war and I think in the case of British society that it is productive that it happens on such a wide scale. Personally I'd argue that all people who have ever died at war should be remembered. Personally it matters little to me what actual side people were on. Personally it matters little to me that the money is spent on Irish & British soldiers who served with the British Army to help them get over the wounds (mental and physical) of war.
They are not Irish soldiers, they are members of the British Armed Forces who happen to be Irish.In fact, from a Christian perspective I think it is important that we take time to remember the fragility of life, and the value of human life in every form. November 11th is an internationally recognised day for doing this, we should use it.
No it is not, 11/11 is Armistice Day which has been morphed into a remembrance of the members of the British Armed Forces in these parts. July holds the remembrance of members of the Irish Armed Forces. There is no recognised day (that I am aware of) for members of humanity who have been killed and injured in wars.I may think of the white ones in the future though.
Which is the only symbol that represents the view you have stated here. The red poppy does not do that at all0 -
No (I'm Irish)A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »It is you who called yourself 'not really Irish or a west Brit'. The red poppy is stained and has no relevance to the futility of war.
You can claim this if you like. Personally I see no issue with it. In fact it is just a symbol. It's what you attach to it that is worthwhile.A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »They are not Irish soldiers, they are members of the British Armed Forces who happen to be Irish.
They are Irish, and they are soldiers. Anything else is dogmatic nationalism.A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »No it is not, 11/11 is Armistice Day which has been morphed into a remembrance of the members of the British Armed Forces in these parts. July holds the remembrance of members of the Irish Armed Forces. There is no recognised day (that I am aware of) for members of humanity who have been killed and injured in wars.
Enjoy. I'll keep using November 11th.A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »Which is the only symbol that represents the view you have stated here. The red poppy does not do that at all
See what I said about symbols in the first paragraph. You're proving yourself to be an ideologue. We can discuss, but I certainly have the liberty to derive my own understanding about things. It's why God gave me a brain.0 -
philologos wrote: »You can claim this if you like. Personally I see no issue with it. In fact it is just a symbol. It's what you attach to it that is worthwhile.
Running around holding your ears saying la la la does not change the fact that the red poppy represents members of the British Armed Forces, not some futility of war.They are Irish, and they are soldiers. Anything else is dogmatic nationalism.
Anything other than they members of the BAF who happen to be Irish is ignoring reality.Enjoy. I'll keep using November 11th.
Enjoy what? How does
'Remembrance Day (also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day) is a memorial day observed in Commonwealth countries since the end of World War I to remember the members of their armed forces who have died in the line of duty.'
reflect 'time to remember the fragility of life, and the value of human life in every form'?See what I said about symbols in the first paragraph. You're proving yourself to be an ideologue. We can discuss, but I certainly have the liberty to derive my own understanding about things. It's why God gave me a brain.
Which is why I said 'How you decide to remember the members of the British Armed Forces is a personal decision by you.'. If you decide that this remembrance means something different, then you will be challenged to explain why.0 -
No (I'm Irish)A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »'Remembrance Day (also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day) is a memorial day observed in Commonwealth countries since the end of World War I to remember the members of their armed forces who have died in the line of duty.'
50,000 Irish men also died in that war, and if you haven't already seen the RTE Nationwide programme, then here is the link again; http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120885
And just to put the 50,000 Irish dead into context, think of the capacity of the New AVIVA stadium at Lansdowne road, and now just imagine that stadium filled with the 50,000 dead Irish soldiers, that's a lot of dead Irish soldiers who were in effect 'airbrushed' out of Irish history between the 1920s (when there were more poppies sold in Dublin than Belfast) and relatively recently. Today the Poppy issued by the RBL (ROI) remembers these brave men who died for the freedom of generations to come, people should respect them and the symbol that represents them, and what they died for.0 -
philologos wrote: »The poppy can be used as a sign to focus on the futility of war.
This is more of the same utterly delusional nonsense. The red poppy was inspired by a poem urging people to go to war and it commemorates only all those who died fighting on the British side in all wars. That includes those people who fought against Irish freedom fighters in Ireland. Nobody has answered this: why should such people be honoured?
The red poppy is a symbol of the British Empire and British Commonwealth, not of any other EU country or even the United States. It does not commemorate any other people, not even the 20 million or so Russians who gave much much more to defeating Nazi Germany than the British did.
If the British poppy were really about the "futility of war", it wouldn't be so damn nationalistic, exclusive and tied up with uber nationalism and forcing everybody who appears on a British tv programme to wear it. All this must surely be embarrassing to right-thinking, genuinely anti-war people in Britain.0 -
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No (I'm Irish)So have you watched the 30 miniute clip yet?0
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50,000 Irish men also died in that war, and if you haven't already seen the RTE Nationwide programme, then here is the link again; http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1120885
And just to put the 50,000 Irish dead into context, think of the capacity of the New AVIVA stadium at Lansdowne road, and now just imagine that stadium filled with the 50,000 dead Irish soldiers, that's a lot of dead Irish soldiers who were in effect 'airbrushed' out of Irish history between the 1920s (when there were more poppies sold in Dublin than Belfast) and relatively recently. Today the Poppy issued by the RBL (ROI) remembers these brave men who died for the freedom of generations to come, people should respect them and the symbol that represents them, and what they died for.
Actually, it was more like 35,000 (nationalists & unionists). And since when should we start commemorating people who got paid for going to war, and were delighted with the money? It's not as if they are heroes simply because it was their misfortune that the war was not over by Christmas 1914. That's called terrible luck, but then again they did join an army during war time. They were naive, at best, and almost all of them got paid more by joining the British Army than they would get at home. It's as if it's bad manners to mention the financial benefits they received for fighting for the British. I can assure you that very, very few people would have joined if they knew their lives would be lost. They took a risk, and they lost. Why should that be "commemorated"?0 -
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No (I'm Irish)Actually, it was more like 35,000 (nationalists & unionists).
Well according to the RTEs Nationwide programme some 50,000 Irish men perished in the Great War, this is mentioned two Minutes into the programme, and then at (7 mins, 30 seconds). They are emphatic, it was 50,000 Irish dead. < Watch, listen, and learn!And since when should we start commemorating people who got paid for going to war, and were delighted with the money? It's not as if they are heroes simply because it was their misfortune that the war was not over by Christmas 1914. That's called terrible luck, but then again they did join an army during war time. They were naive, at best, and almost all of them got paid more by joining the British Army than they would get at home. It's as if it's bad manners to mention the financial benefits they received for fighting for the British. I can assure you that very, very few people would have joined if they knew their lives would be lost. They took a risk, and they lost. Why should that be "commemorated"?
Dear Lord, you're a hard case if ever there was :rolleyes: do you have no feelings whatsoever for the Irish fallen from the Great War & WWII.0 -
No (I'm Irish)Perhaps you ought to ditch the tv and start reading books? You might develop a less romanticised view of WW I, and get a better understanding of the motivations of Irish-born people, and the Irish death toll, in the process?
Jezuz, you dont give up :rolleyes:
Irish National War Memorial Gardens; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_National_War_Memorial_Gardens
RTE Nationwide Docu; http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=11208850 -
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So have you watched the 30 miniute clip yet?
I doubt people would not have minded if the poppy appeal had stopped with families of those who went to fight in both WW1 and WW2. Its the fact that it is now going to help people who served in Northern Ireland. It is a politicised emblem now in Northern Ireland and by some in the Republic of Ireland******
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No (I'm Irish)citytillidie wrote: »I doubt people would not have minded if the poppy appeal had stopped with families of those who went to fight in both WW1 and WW2. Its the fact that it is now going to help people who served in Northern Ireland. It is a politicised emblem now in Northern Ireland and by some in the Republic of Ireland
Like any symbol you wear it for personal reasons, I wear my poppy to commemorate family members who perished in the Great War & WWII. This morning I will attend the Rembrance day service in St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin along with another few hundred genuine people, most of whom will be wearing poppies. (Michael D will be there too).
Bye for now, I'm off to catch a Dart.0 -
No (I'm Irish)A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »Running around holding your ears saying la la la does not change the fact that the red poppy represents members of the British Armed Forces, not some futility of war.
Anything other than they members of the BAF who happen to be Irish is ignoring reality.
Enjoy what? How does
'Remembrance Day (also known as Poppy Day, Armistice Day) is a memorial day observed in Commonwealth countries since the end of World War I to remember the members of their armed forces who have died in the line of duty.'
reflect 'time to remember the fragility of life, and the value of human life in every form'?
Which is why I said 'How you decide to remember the members of the British Armed Forces is a personal decision by you.'. If you decide that this remembrance means something different, then you will be challenged to explain why.This is more of the same utterly delusional nonsense. The red poppy was inspired by a poem urging people to go to war and it commemorates only all those who died fighting on the British side in all wars. That includes those people who fought against Irish freedom fighters in Ireland. Nobody has answered this: why should such people be honoured?
The red poppy is a symbol of the British Empire and British Commonwealth, not of any other EU country or even the United States. It does not commemorate any other people, not even the 20 million or so Russians who gave much much more to defeating Nazi Germany than the British did.
If the British poppy were really about the "futility of war", it wouldn't be so damn nationalistic, exclusive and tied up with uber nationalism and forcing everybody who appears on a British tv programme to wear it. All this must surely be embarrassing to right-thinking, genuinely anti-war people in Britain.
I think you've both missed the point. Even if other people regard it in such a way. I have the liberty to regard it differently. I don't have to conform to your expectation or others expectations of November 11th. That's the beauty of being a critical thinker. I can regard November 11th in a similar way as I have come to regard some of the sacred-cow topics in Irish history.
As for the US they commemorate on November 11th as well actually, it's called Veteran's Day.
Others might think of November 11th differently. I have the liberty to differ.
If your reply is just repeating the same post that you've made 2+ times now then I fail to see the value of continuing the discussion really.Dear Lord, you're a hard case if ever there was :rolleyes: do you have no feelings whatsoever for the Irish fallen from the Great War & WWII.
If you asked him why did people go out during the 1916 rising. Sure wasn't it their own fault that they got killed?
Why did people go out during the War of Independence, sure wasn't it their own fault they got killed?
You can also include every uprising as far back as 1798 in this line of argument.
They took a risk, and they lost? Right?
I'm sure that he would find such reasoning abhorrent. Personally, I think it was abhorrent that anyone had to die in such a fashion whether or was on their own impetus or not.0 -
Live radio coverage of the commemorations from the Cenotaph in London: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/bbc_radio_ulster0
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philologos wrote: »Even if other people regard it in such a way. I have the liberty to regard it differently. I don't have to conform to your expectation or others expectations of November 11th.
Except for the fact that the red poppy is not your symbol but one created and sold by the Royal British Legion to commemorate not some peace-loving hippies but to commemorate, specifically and explicitly, all those people who fought on Britain's side in wars. That is what it means. If you want a symbol which means something else you should find one, or even make one. Your current logic is akin to somebody saying "I'm wearing the same Swaztika that the Nazis wore but it really has a totally different meaning."philologos wrote: »That's the beauty of being a critical thinker.
What pompous, delusional, self-serving, patronising, conceited nonsense.philologos wrote: »If you asked him why did people go out during the 1916 rising. Sure wasn't it their own fault that they got killed?
Why did people go out during the War of Independence, sure wasn't it their own fault they got killed?
You can also include every uprising as far back as 1798 in this line of argument.
They took a risk, and they lost? Right?
Irish people fighting for the freedom of this small country from British colonial rule is a noble cause. People joining the British Empire's forces to fight not for the freedom of Britain but to maintain British imperial power abroad against another, rising, imperial power, Germany, in the imperialist war that was World War I is a patently different thing.
That you cannot see the rather fundamental difference does not bode well for your self-declared "critical thinking" powers.0 -
philologos wrote: »I'm sure that he would find such reasoning abhorrent. Personally, I think it was abhorrent that anyone had to die in such a fashion whether or was on their own impetus or not.
All this "critical thinking" is getting embarrassing for you, especially when it gets into tarot card style predictions. Actually, I have absolutely no problem in accepting that the people who have fought against British rule in Ireland have only themselves to blame for their decision.
That they did it out of belief rather than out of financial self-interest as was the case with the people who were paid to join the British Empire's forces does make them more noble. That they took on the most powerful empire in the world, rather that joined it, does make them more courageous. But they joined, they took the risk, and they lost their lives. It was their choice. They deserve to be commemorated because they fought for something noble, Irish freedom, rather than for something oppressive, British imperialism.
That you are commemorating people who fought for British imperial power says much about your profound lack of "critical thinking" and loyal adherence to the code of your tribe over any loyalty you might have to humanity.0 -
No (I'm British/not Irish)
Can people not just wear the Poppy to remember the people who died? For a lot of people, it is that simple. Republicans though try to make it more complicated and try to put other people down who wear the Poppy.All this "critical thinking" is getting embarrassing for you, especially when it gets into tarot card style predictions. Actually, I have absolutely no problem in accepting that the people who have fought against British rule in Ireland have only themselves to blame for their decision.
That they did it out of belief rather than out of financial self-interest as was the case with the people who were paid to join the British Empire's forces does make them more noble. That they took on the most powerful empire in the world, rather that joined it, does make them more courageous. But they joined, they took the risk, and they lost their lives. It was their choice. They deserve to be commemorated because they fought for something noble, Irish freedom, rather than for something oppressive, British imperialism.
That you are commemorating people who fought for British imperial power says much about your profound lack of "critical thinking" and loyal adherence to the code of your tribe over any loyalty you might have to humanity.0 -
Has anyone changed their opinion after 1284 posts?
Does the pope usually sh1t in the woods?0 -
No (I'm Irish)That they did it out of belief rather than out of financial self-interest as was the case with the people who were paid to join the British Empire's forces does make them more noble. That they took on the most powerful empire in the world, rather that joined it, does make them more courageous. But they joined, they took the risk, and they lost their lives. It was their choice. They deserve to be commemorated because they fought for something noble, Irish freedom, rather than for something oppressive, British imperialism.
How does fighting for a belief make it any better? Personally, I think people who fought for Home Rule in the Houses of Westminster did more fighting for Ireland than any militant with a gun did.
It's a tragedy that anyone should die irrespective of their background, but it doesn't mean that a war is inherently just. That's a different question to ask.That you are commemorating people who fought for British imperial power says much about your profound lack of "critical thinking" and loyal adherence to the code of your tribe over any loyalty you might have to humanity.
Despite the fact that I told you 2+ times that this isn't what I'm doing? Interesting take, but it appears that you have selective hearing.
There's nothing conceited about saying that I am a critical thinker because I don't blindly follow any cultural norm or position. I make up my own judgement about things and I would hope that most other people would too.0 -
philologos wrote: »I care little for the dogmatic republicanism that you, gurramok et al expouse. Personally I don't care if you claim that I'm not really Irish or that I am a west Brit.
You're very fond of mentioning my name in a few posts. I didn't vote SF in the last general election, I actually voted for a local independent who is an economist. I'm simply an Irish citizen who likes sticking up for Ireland against those who try to damage her sovereignty as an independent nation.
If i'm one who espouses dogmatic republicanism, that means you espouse Loyalism or is it the BNP or EDL, its fun labelling people who oppose your views, ain't it?0 -
It is pure hypocrisy. The Republican movement doesn't do it for the Protestants who died in the defence of Ulster. So I ain't going to patronise you by pretending to do it for victims of the British Army.
At least you're honest and say that you couldn't care less about your innocent coutrymen murdered by your Army.
I think you've just taken hatred to new levels, completely innocent people have been murdered but you're not willing to commemorate them because of their religion or the fact that they were killed by accident by your Army, I find that very sad.0 -
philologos wrote: »The poppy can be used as a sign to focus on the futility of war. It needn't say the British Army are the best thing since sliced bread. gurramok et al will be glad to know that I didn't get one this year, but I'm not opposed to the idea of taking out a day each year to remember the futility of war. I don't see why I can't do this on November 11th.
My God, you actually have no notion of what the poppy stands for at all.
It's nothing to do with the futility of war, if that's what you want to commemorate then why don't you wear a white poppy?
Your flinging round of the word "dogmatic" is hilarious, as you seem to suffer from clinging onto your own dogma throughout this thread and especially in recent posts with ADubinGlasgow.0 -
No (I'm British/not Irish)
Religion? I don't need to commemorate people for the sake of it.bobbysands81 wrote: »At least you're honest and say that you couldn't care less about your innocent coutrymen murdered by your Army.
I think you've just taken hatred to new levels, completely innocent people have been murdered but you're not willing to commemorate them because of their religion or the fact that they were killed by accident by your Army, I find that very sad.0 -
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No (I'm Irish)bobbysands81 wrote: »My God, you actually have no notion of what the poppy stands for at all.
It's nothing to do with the futility of war, if that's what you want to commemorate then why don't you wear a white poppy?
Your flinging round of the word "dogmatic" is hilarious, as you seem to suffer from clinging onto your own dogma throughout this thread and especially in recent posts with ADubinGlasgow.
Read my post again. I don't see any point in responding to it unless you consider the point I have made in it. You're ignoring my post, until you respond properly this discussion is pointless.I think you've both missed the point. Even if other people regard it in such a way. I have the liberty to regard it differently. I don't have to conform to your expectation or others expectations of November 11th. That's the beauty of being a critical thinker. I can regard November 11th in a similar way as I have come to regard some of the sacred-cow topics in Irish history.gurramok wrote:You're very fond of mentioning my name in a few posts. I didn't vote SF in the last general election, I actually voted for a local independent who is an economist. I'm simply an Irish citizen who likes sticking up for Ireland against those who try to damage her sovereignty as an independent nation.
If i'm one who espouses dogmatic republicanism, that means you espouse Loyalism or is it the BNP or EDL, its fun labelling people who oppose your views, ain't it?
Your claim that I am a loyalist has no basis in fact. Neither does the EDL one, or the BNP one.
The claim that you are a dogmatic republican has basis in fact in that you condemn Irish people who decide to wear the poppy out of their own choice and liberty. Personally, in terms of how I would regard the Easter Lily I support the liberty of people to wear one, yet I won't. I don't see why you can't take this stance in respect to people wearing the poppy in Ireland.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntt3wy-L8Ok
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