Irish Slutwalk

LeeHoffmann

Pretty pointless from here on in tbh.

Pointless from the beginning it seems. You've failed to answer my questions and ignored a lot of my points. We'll leave it there so. Clearly we're not getting anywhere with each other

midlandsmissus

stupidusername wrote: »

exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't figure it out

like it or not there are double standards in society, and they're there because they're accepted. many girls like to play the dainty helpless pretty role, many guys like to be seen as tough masculine types that people don't mess with. and before all the girls on boards come in saying ':eek: I don't do that!', just about every girl does it in one way or another.

but anyway that's not what this is about.

I'll hold my hands up and say that I am one of those people that would automatically wonder what the circumstances were of a rape taking place (including how a girl was dressed). I realise it's wrong, and I don't know where it comes from. I also would think less of a guy getting his bum pinched in a bar than a girl.

At least you're honest enough to say so. It's the singular crime where the victim gets blamed. Imagine going through the horror of a sexual assault, and then being told it's your fault on top of that.

It's a big societal view that needs to change.

Unless the girl was a virgin and the rapist broke in to her house with a knife at her throat, people tend to question what the girl did to "lead him on",

Whereas the huge percentage of rape/ sexual assault is caused by partners/acquaintances/friends. One of my friends who said to me, "a minute for the man, a lifetime of pain for her", is on anti-depressants and getting counselling ten years later.

Let me re-iterate, I'm not for a minute calling all men rapists,or potential rapists, it's just good that the slutwalk and this discussion happened to air people's views, and maybe look at your own thoughts on the issue.

The King of Moo

pikachucheeks wrote: »

So, on the basis that there haven't been any major rape cases in Ireland - that have been reported - of late, these women don't have any real reason to protest? :rolleyes:

There aren't any mixed messages; Just a clear one - They're driving the point that what a person chooses to wear does not mean they have the right to be violated, assaulted or used for someone else's pleasure.

It shouldn't need to come to another horrific crime for these people to feel the need to express their point.

It's not that there hasn't been a rape case, more that there hasn't been an inflammatory comment like the one by the cop that started the original Canadian slutwalk.

I'm not questioning their right to protest at all, or their reasons for protesting, rather the nature of the protest.

The original one with protesters dressing as a "slut" made sense as most people in Toronto would've been aware that they were commenting on the cop's comments.

Being far from Canada and after a long time, I don't think dressing in such a way is as relevant here and now.

I do think it would also possibly muddle their message or make people not take the protesters seriously.

But they absolutely have the right to protest in that way. I'm just not convinced it's the best way to do it.

midlandsmissus

The King of Moo wrote: »

It's not that there hasn't been a rape case, more that there hasn't been an inflammatory comment like the one by the cop that started the original Canadian slutwalk.

I'm not questioning their right to protest at all, or their reasons for protesting, rather the nature of the protest.

The original one with protesters dressing as a "slut" made sense as most people in Toronto would've been aware that they were commenting on the cop's comments.

Being far from Canada and after a long time, I don't think dressing in such a way is as relevant here and now.

I do think it would also possibly muddle their message or make people not take the protesters seriously.

But they absolutely have the right to protest in that way. I'm just not convinced it's the best way to do it.

It might make some people confused, but it will make people stop and think, rather than a march with a few "no to rape" placards, which people wouldn't even look at before driving on their way.
People are desensitised to most kind of marches/protest these days. You need to think of an unusual angle. At least this has got people talking.

panda100

prinz wrote: »

When is the march for men against being groped by women? I can confidently say I have been groped more times by strange women than I have by strange men. Any chance the slutwalk is going to raise the question about that phenomenon?

I also seem to remember an ad from tv where a man (a waiter I seem to recall) without his asking had his arse pinched by someone at a table of women. But sure it was all in good fun, tee hee hee.

what would men wear on the slutwalk? men can take their tops off in public, and are not labelled as being 'provocative'. It doesn't matter what clothes men wear they will never be labelled 'sluts' in them.

Maybe you can organise a slut walk when you are judged for what you wear?

DeVore

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Why do you think it is women spend so much money on their clothes hair and just so happen to expose parts of their body that attracts men?

For the most part women attract men through how they look and men do the approaching, this is why you dress the way you do when you go out. If men weren't attracted to breasts you and the rest of women wouldn't expose part of your breasts when out.

Um... yeah, so?

I wear nice aftershave, gel in my hair and a tight t-shirt (cos I iz fit ladiez! )

But if a woman grabbed my crotch, I will be far FAR from impressed and not slow to let her know.

I'm not sure what your point is, yes we all like to attract the opposite sex. Thats perfectly legal and cool.

DeV.

wild_cat

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Women have randomly grabbed my crotch on numerous so occasions without my permission so maybe women's perceptions need to change. Maybe it's a power and dominance thing too. You are not entitled to grab my crotch.

The majority of women wouldn't do this... and those that do usually are of a certain breed anyway...

The King of Moo

midlandsmissus wrote: »

It might make some people confused, but it will make people stop and think, rather than a march with a few "no to rape" placards, which people wouldn't even look at before driving on their way.
People are desensitised to most kind of marches/protest these days. You need to think of an unusual angle. At least this has got people talking.

I see your point, and agree that overall the most important thing is that they're raising the issue.

I do feel conflicted about it though. I know that it grabs attention, and for every person who gets confused by them, or thinks they're just a bunch of silly eejits, there'll hopefully be more who support them.

But it reminds me of how I feel about some of the Occupy Wall Street protesters. I admire their ideals and that they're actually getting out and protesting, but I can't help thinking that those who dress and act like exactly the people Wall Street suits despise and don't take seriously aren't helping the protest.

But then of course they're free to do what they want, and I don't think they should all have to dress in nice suits to be taken seriously.

I'm clearly a bit conflicted about the whole thing!

Robdude

stupidusername wrote: »

exactly what I wanted to say but couldn't figure it out

like it or not there are double standards in society, and they're there because they're accepted. many girls like to play the dainty helpless pretty role, many guys like to be seen as tough masculine types that people don't mess with. and before all the girls on boards come in saying ':eek: I don't do that!', just about every girl does it in one way or another.

but anyway that's not what this is about.

I'll hold my hands up and say that I am one of those people that would automatically wonder what the circumstances were of a rape taking place (including how a girl was dressed). I realise it's wrong, and I don't know where it comes from. I also would think less of a guy getting his bum pinched in a bar than a girl.

I don't think it's wrong.

Life isn't black and white. Whenever I hear of a crime, I wonder what circumstances happened before it.

In most legal systems things like the situation and intent play a huge role in determining whether a crime was committed and the punishment. And, while it doesn't *justify* the crime; I believe there are high-risk activities that increase the likelihood of a crime and we should educate people on how to avoid them.

If I tell you, 'Oh man! Someone broke into my car and stole my 50" HDTV, my new PS3 and the stack of 10,000 euro I had sitting on the dash' you'd probably say, 'Why would you leave that in your car?!'

Had someone told me, I could reduce the risk of being a victim by NOT putting valuable items on display in front of people who want to steal them; that information could have prevented me from being a victim.

wild_cat

stupidusername wrote: »

like it or not there are double standards in society, and they're there because they're accepted. many girls like to play the dainty helpless pretty role, many guys like to be seen as tough masculine types that people don't mess with. and before all the girls on boards come in saying ':eek: I don't do that!', just about every girl does it in one way or another.

Those are the type's that go around grabbing men's crotches. Not a very nice view to have of your own sex btw... very generalised to. Perhaps we just keep much different company.. or I stay away from complete ****.

midlandsmissus

wild_cat wrote: »

The majority of women wouldn't do this... and those that do usually are of a certain breed anyway...

Drunk on a hen night? Some women need to cop on as well. Crotch grabbing a stranger is not cool by any-one's standards.

minidazzler

skregs wrote: »

A slutwalk is a girl in a raggedy dress walking home at 8 o'clock on Sunday morning after spending the night with some guy she just met.

That's called a walk of shame. Not a slut walk.

midlandsmissus

minidazzler wrote: »

That's called a walk of shame. Not a slut walk.

minidazzler 12 pages ago, and the stride of pride walk :mad::D

DeVore

wild_cat wrote: »

The majority of women wouldn't do this... and those that do usually are of a certain breed anyway...

To be fair, the majority of men wouldnt do it to women either. I know of none of my mates who have or would ever do it.

Thats part of the male annoyance with the "feminist" thing. It just tars all men, so a touch more care about that would be appreciated because imho its pretty dirty brush.

DeV.

midlandsmissus

Robdude wrote: »

I don't think it's wrong.

Life isn't black and white. Whenever I hear of a crime, I wonder what circumstances happened before it.

In most legal systems things like the situation and intent play a huge role in determining whether a crime was committed and the punishment. And, while it doesn't *justify* the crime; I believe there are high-risk activities that increase the likelihood of a crime and we should educate people on how to avoid them.

If I tell you, 'Oh man! Someone broke into my car and stole my 50" HDTV, my new PS3 and the stack of 10,000 euro I had sitting on the dash' you'd probably say, 'Why would you leave that in your car?!'

Had someone told me, I could reduce the risk of being a victim by NOT putting valuable items on display in front of people who want to steal them; that information could have prevented me from being a victim.

I don't understand this analogy at all. How are they comparable crimes?

I leave my window open with 10,000 euro sitting on the windowsill.
I see a girl wearing a tight fitting dress so I overpower and rape her.

How are they even on the same spectrum?

DeVore

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't understand this analogy at all. How are they comparable crimes?

I leave my window open with 10,000 euro sitting on the windowsill.
I see a girl wearing a tight fitting dress so I overpower and rape her.

How are they even on the same spectrum?

The crimes arent comparable and he's not comparing them. Dont be deliberately daft.

Whats comparable is the concept of "it isnt fair or right but you need to take some steps to protect yourself from crime".


We shouldnt have to, but we do.

DeV.

Logical Fallacy

Robdude wrote: »

I don't think it's wrong.

Life isn't black and white. Whenever I hear of a crime, I wonder what circumstances happened before it.

In most legal systems things like the situation and intent play a huge role in determining whether a crime was committed and the punishment. And, while it doesn't *justify* the crime; I believe there are high-risk activities that increase the likelihood of a crime and we should educate people on how to avoid them.

If I tell you, 'Oh man! Someone broke into my car and stole my 50" HDTV, my new PS3 and the stack of 10,000 euro I had sitting on the dash' you'd probably say, 'Why would you leave that in your car?!'

Had someone told me, I could reduce the risk of being a victim by NOT putting valuable items on display in front of people who want to steal them; that information could have prevented me from being a victim.

So lets see all the links to studies and expert opinion that show how a woman dresses plays a major role in her likelihood of being raped.

Oh....wait.

4leto

But there is more to then rape and freedom of how women want to express themselves. It is not only about sexism, or how a woman is judged by her attire. It is about liberation from men and women's attitude to the societal demands placed on women.

They are also reclaiming the word slut, for instance a man can be a slut and proud but a women reputation can be destroyed by being called such.

I post this article by Germaine Greer who is a very vocal supporter of the movement


http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDAQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fhealth%2Fwomen_shealth%2F8510743%2FThese-slut-walk-women-are-simply-fighting-for-their-right-to-be-dirty.html&rct=j&q=slut%20walks&ei=YtL1TejYHcSxhQfRmrH5Bg&usg=AFQjCNE58jggzQ_DyrZRCfx3sodTmg9Ing&cad=rja


[ISlut-walkers are apt to say that the purpose of their action is to "reclaim the word". It's difficult, probably impossible, to reclaim a word that has always been an insult. And yet here are women spontaneously deciding to adopt it. Before we decide that thousands of our sisters are simply stupid or misguided, an attempt must be made to understand what's going on. The slut walk manifesto states: "Historically, the term 'slut' has carried a predominantly negative association. Aimed at those who were sexually promiscuous, be it for work or pleasure, it has primarily been women who have suffered under the burden of this label. We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality…"][/I]

............A little knowledge here misleads. Historically, the primary attribute of a slut is not promiscuity but dirt. The word denotes a "woman of dirty, slovenly, or untidy habits or appearance; a foul slattern". A now obsolete meaning connects it with a kitchen maid, whose life was lived in soot and grease. She was too dirty to be allowed above stairs, but drudged out her painful life scraping pans and riddling ash, for 16 hours a day, and then retreated to her squalid lodging where hot water could not be had. The corner she left unswept was the slut corner; the fluff that collected under the furniture was a slut ball. People who thought of sex as dirt suspected the lazy kitchen maid of being unclean in that way as well.

Robdude

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't understand this analogy at all. How are they comparable crimes?

I leave my window open with 10,000 euro sitting on the windowsill.
I see a girl wearing a tight fitting dress so I overpower and rape her.

How are they even on the same spectrum?

If we collect data about crimes and see a pattern it is reasonable to explore the idea that altering the pattern can prevent the crime.

It doesn't matter what the crime is or what the data is; if there is a correlation it's enough to consider avoiding that behaviour.

If we have data that shows cars parked in dark parking lots are more likely to be broken into than ones in well lit areas; it's reasonable to educate people that 'parking in dark parking lots' might be dangerous. Likewise empty streets verse crowded public streets.

If we look at data surrounding rape and see patterns, regardless of how we feel things 'should' be; we can say, 'Maybe you should avoid doing X because X is involved in many cases of rape'.

The Slutwalk people take offense to this. They believe no girl, ever *should* be raped, so girls should be able to do whatever they want and not be raped. I agree, in theory. Just like no car should ever be broken into.

In practice, until the world is a more perfect place, let's do what we can to prevent being a victim of a crime.

For example, excessive alcohol consumption is a factor in the vast majority of rapes. The vast majority of rapes happen when someone is alone. The vast majority or rapes are not perpetuated by strangers; but people you know, at least a little.

So, I think it's reasonable to tell people, 'Look, nobody deserves to be raped, it's a horrible crime, BUT data suggests that you should avoid heavy drinking or at least be more aware of the potential for being a victim when you are drinking. You should not be alone (alone with someone else) *especially* if you have been drinking. And, you should be worried about a person you've just met less than a stranger breaking into your house and raping you'.

In short, don't go to a bar, get smashed, leave your friends, and go home with a nice guy you've just met.

It's not a moral judgement, it's just practical based on evidence we've collected. If dressing a certain way does, in practice, increase the odds of being a victim, and a policeman conveys that information, he's doing a GOOD thing. It's about prevention, not what is morally right.

That's *IF* the data supports it. I don't know if sluttily dressed girls are more likely to be raped or not, but if they are, why not tell people the truth? I'm assuming a cop would know about these things.

DeVore

I will be in the North next weekend.

I'll be travelling through some pretty hardcore areas.

I wont be wearing my irish-flag shorts and Celtic jersey.

Its not right, I should be able to without fear of death, but I still wont be doing it.

Protest to change things is fine and absolutely necessary but protest the right thing against the right people cos "men" are getting sick of getting it in the neck.

It is, ironically, sexist. :rolleyes:

DeV.

4leto

Robdude wrote: »

If we collect data about crimes and see a pattern it is reasonable to explore the idea that altering the pattern can prevent the crime.

It doesn't matter what the crime is or what the data is; if there is a correlation it's enough to consider avoiding that behaviour.

If we have data that shows cars parked in dark parking lots are more likely to be broken into than ones in well lit areas; it's reasonable to educate people that 'parking in dark parking lots' might be dangerous. Likewise empty streets verse crowded public streets.

If we look at data surrounding rape and see patterns, regardless of how we feel things 'should' be; we can say, 'Maybe you should avoid doing X because X is involved in many cases of rape'.

The Slutwalk people take offense to this. They believe no girl, ever *should* be raped, so girls should be able to do whatever they want and not be raped. I agree, in theory. Just like no car should ever be broken into.

In practice, until the world is a more perfect place, let's do what we can to prevent being a victim of a crime.

For example, excessive alcohol consumption is a factor in the vast majority of rapes. The vast majority of rapes happen when someone is alone. The vast majority or rapes are not perpetuated by strangers; but people you know, at least a little.

So, I think it's reasonable to tell people, 'Look, nobody deserves to be raped, it's a horrible crime, BUT data suggests that you should avoid heavy drinking or at least be more aware of the potential for being a victim when you are drinking. You should not be alone (alone with someone else) *especially* if you have been drinking. And, you should be worried about a person you've just met less than a stranger breaking into your house and raping you'.

In short, don't go to a bar, get smashed, leave your friends, and go home with a nice guy you've just met.

It's not a moral judgement, it's just practical based on evidence we've collected. If dressing a certain way does, in practice, increase the odds of being a victim, and a policeman conveys that information, he's doing a GOOD thing. It's about prevention, not what is morally right.

That's *IF* the data supports it. I don't know if sluttily dressed girls are more likely to be raped or not, but if they are, why not tell people the truth? I'm assuming a cop would know about these things.

But that is rubbish,

You there I assume you are not a rapist, so would you ever be tempted to, because of what a women is wearing.

Or lets assume you picked up at a night club went back to, say hers and to spite her wearing NOTHING and she changes her mind and says NO.

Do you say well she is wearing nothing, so I am justified in overpowering her and getting my end away.

A rape is a rapist state of mind, it has nothing to do with a woman or what she is wearing Like we are not that helpless or out of control.

midlandsmissus

Robdude wrote: »

If we collect data about crimes and see a pattern it is reasonable to explore the idea that altering the pattern can prevent the crime.

It doesn't matter what the crime is or what the data is; if there is a correlation it's enough to consider avoiding that behaviour.

If we have data that shows cars parked in dark parking lots are more likely to be broken into than ones in well lit areas; it's reasonable to educate people that 'parking in dark parking lots' might be dangerous. Likewise empty streets verse crowded public streets.

If we look at data surrounding rape and see patterns, regardless of how we feel things 'should' be; we can say, 'Maybe you should avoid doing X because X is involved in many cases of rape'.

The Slutwalk people take offense to this. They believe no girl, ever *should* be raped, so girls should be able to do whatever they want and not be raped. I agree, in theory. Just like no car should ever be broken into.

In practice, until the world is a more perfect place, let's do what we can to prevent being a victim of a crime.

For example, excessive alcohol consumption is a factor in the vast majority of rapes. The vast majority of rapes happen when someone is alone. The vast majority or rapes are not perpetuated by strangers; but people you know, at least a little.

So, I think it's reasonable to tell people, 'Look, nobody deserves to be raped, it's a horrible crime, BUT data suggests that you should avoid heavy drinking or at least be more aware of the potential for being a victim when you are drinking. You should not be alone (alone with someone else) *especially* if you have been drinking. And, you should be worried about a person you've just met less than a stranger breaking into your house and raping you'.

In short, don't go to a bar, get smashed, leave your friends, and go home with a nice guy you've just met.

It's not a moral judgement, it's just practical based on evidence we've collected. If dressing a certain way does, in practice, increase the odds of being a victim, and a policeman conveys that information, he's doing a GOOD thing. It's about prevention, not what is morally right.

That's *IF* the data supports it. I don't know if sluttily dressed girls are more likely to be raped or not, but if they are, why not tell people the truth? I'm assuming a cop would know about these things.

Yes I agree with you in that you should take precautions and eliminate risk factors, but I think the issue with the march is people's attitudes to girls AFTER they have been raped. Not to tell her she was raped because she was 'asking for it.'

Which in itself makes no sense. How could she be asking for it if she said no/ tries to fight him off..?

spider guardian

Does this slutwalk have any particular purpose or just an attempt to raise the issue of sexual assault in general? Can't be denied it has got people talking.

I'm not sure how prevalent the 'she was asking for it' mentality is but it deserves to be tackled, it's not right to add insult to injury in that manner

prinz

panda100 wrote: »

what would men wear on the slutwalk? men can take their tops off in public, and are not labelled as being 'provocative'. It doesn't matter what clothes men wear they will never be labelled 'sluts' in them. Maybe you can organise a slut walk when you are judged for what you wear?

Men are judged for what they wear all the time. By other men and by women. Are you telling me women never judge men by what they are wearing? Or is it that it only becomes offensive if it has to deal with 'slut'? How many times have I heard a woman question a man's sexuality based on his clothing...

prinz

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

So lets see all the links to studies and expert opinion that show how a woman dresses plays a major role in her likelihood of being raped.Oh....wait.

So the slutwalk is a complaint against a problem that doesn't exist..

midlandsmissus

prinz wrote: »

So the slutwalk is a complaint against a problem that doesn't exist..

The problem is calling girls "sluts, "asking for it", after they have been raped.

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

The problem is calling girls "sluts, "asking for it", after they have been raped.

Any cases of this happening here? Any examples? By the way a few pages ago in a post you thanked it was protesting about 'attitudes about what they wear' i.e. all women, not only about comments about actual rape victims.

The problem is when you question a victims choices in some situations you are automatically assumed to be taking blame away from the criminal and putting it on the victim. That doesn't follow. Sometimes victims have behaved stupidly and didn't help themselves (male and female, rape victims and others) highlighting that fact isn't victim blaming, but it may help people in the future avoid the same... and yes when my OH is dressed up for going out and she's on her own she is more mindful of her own security, than if she was wearing jeans, runners and a hoodie for example. She says it herself, she often feels more vulnerable when she's attracting male attention because she's done up.. and she channels that into being more aware of who is around etc. Is the slutwalk a protest against her too? Should she be less mindful about her safety those times she feels most insecure?

Roisy7

I was there in Galway today to cover the march for the college newspaper.

While (of course as a woman who likes her fashion) I believe that women should be able to wear what they want without being targeted for sexual assault, I'm not entirely sure myself of the whole Slutwalk concept. The problem with any feminist movement these days is that a lot of people immediately get the image of humourless, man-hating "dykes".

Reclaiming the word slut like the gay community reclaims queer is admirable but it doesn't stop the word slut being used as an insult, just like it doesn't stop homophobes using "queer" and "******" as insults.

But:

I don't think anyone in the Slutwalk movement claims that it'll stop rapists. Predatory rapists will rape. It's the attitude of the public that needs to change. It's only a few years since a rapist's hand was shaken in a courtroom in this country by people who saw him as one of the lads. As far as I can see it's the people doing the hand-shaking that SlutWalk aims to educate, not the rapist.

I don't necessarily think its the most effective way to educate them. The march coincided with lunchtime in Galway's schools, and some schoolboys passed remarks at the marchers.

These lads need to be educated, and educated in school: They need to be reminded again and again that women are someone's sister, mother, daughter and they need respect. There seems to be a strong current of misogyny in today's pop culture and it needs to be countered. Likewise, girls should be told that not all men are bastards, we need to cut men some slack sometimes.

Finally, some posters mentioned the power dynamic involved in rape. Rape is about dominance. The dominance of the strong over the weak. Women are still physically weaker, something I feel often as a very petite girl is my vulnerability at times.

I spoke to a representative from the Rape Crisis Network and she told me there was no evidence that attire made a difference to rates of rape. In fact, the people who get raped most often are children

Sorry for the length of post.

PseudoFamous

I just had a gander at some of the pictures of these Galway "sluts". They weren't very slutty at all. In fact, they were covered from head to toe, not even in lace or leather or latex or anything.

A disappointing day, all in all.

Shane732

So has anyone got pictures of this so called slut walk?