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Irish Slutwalk

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    #212
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Roisy7 wrote: »
    Reclaiming the word slut like the gay community reclaims queer is admirable

    Wtf is there to 'reclaim' about the word slut? :confused:
    Roisy7 wrote: »
    These lads need to be educated, and educated in school: They need to be reminded again and again that women are someone's sister, mother, daughter and they need respect. There seems to be a strong current of misogyny in today's pop culture and it needs to be countered. Likewise, girls should be told that not all men are bastards, we need to cut men some slack sometimes..

    Presumably you mean by 'cutting the men some slack' you mean these girls being educated, and educated in school?


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    #213
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Did anyone here attend it? Ages ago, I heard one was planned for Dublin but I can't seem to find any information on it. :( I'd definitely take part in it. I think it's an important message to get out to the people that it's NOT ok to sexually abuse someone or rape them based on what they're wearing. It's ridiculous. And I haven't read through all this thread but no doubt there are people arguing that women 'deserve' it if they dress slutty :rolleyes:


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    #214
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Roisy7 wrote: »
    It's the attitude of the public that needs to change. It's only a few years since a rapist's hand was shaken in a courtroom in this country by people who saw him as one of the lads. As far as I can see it's the people doing the hand-shaking that SlutWalk aims to educate, not the rapist.

    Just in relationship to this. From what I remember of that 'hand shaking incident' it wasn't that the people had the attitude of 'ah sure he only raped her, what's the big deal' or 'she was asking to be raped' it was that they believed he hadn't raped her, that he was innocent.

    I of course agree that an attitude of 'so she was raped, she was asking for it' is abhorrent but I think trying to suggest that this is a common societal attitude and not just one held be a tiny number of freako nutjobs is at best misleading and personally I don't think the tiny percent of freako nutjobs are going to have their minds changed by girls dressing like Madonna and walking down a street.


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    #215
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    strobe wrote: »
    Just in relationship to this. From what I remember of that 'hand shaking incident' it wasn't that the people had the attitude of 'ah sure he only raped her, what's the big deal' or 'she was asking to be raped' it was that they believed he hadn't raped her, that he was innocent.

    I of course agree that an attitude of 'so she was raped, she was asking for it' is abhorrent but I think trying to suggest that this is a common societal attitude and not just one held be a tiny number of freako nutjobs is at best misleading and personally I don't think the tiny percent of freako nutjobs are going to have their minds changed by girls dressing like Madonna and walking down a street.

    You would be surprised.

    I've come across it quite frequently unfortunately.

    Not in cases of rape but in cases of getting their ass/tits squeezed, getting groped and mild (for want of a better word) sexual assault.

    Whether you want to accept it or not the attitude of 'ah sure she was askin for it' is definitely alive in society today. How common it is, I don't know. But it certainly isn't confined to a small number of 'freako nutjobs'


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    #216
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    You would be surprised.
    I've come across it quite frequently unfortunately. Not in cases of rape but in cases of getting their ass/tits squeezed, getting groped and mild (for want of a better word) sexual assault.

    ..and as I have said, and others on this thread, I have myself been pinched, groped and grabbed by women uninvited. Do I think it's all fun and games... because that's the usual response from female friends?


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    #217
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and as I have said, and others on this thread, I have myself been pinched, groped and grabbed by women uninvited. Do I think it's all fun and games... because that's the usual response from female friends?

    Haven't read the thread so I apologise.

    Nope - I don't think it's fun and games. Unconsenual groping, slapping, grabbing, assaulting is NEVER acceptable. Regardless of gender.

    And two wrongs don't make it right either btw. If a woman is found doing this to a man, it doesn't mean it's ok for a man to then say 'right I'm gonna grope this girl then - it's clearly not a big deal'

    And vice versa.


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    #218
    Roisy7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Roisy7


    prinz wrote: »
    Wtf is there to 'reclaim' about the word slut? :confused:



    Presumably you mean by 'cutting the men some slack' you mean these girls being educated, and educated in school?

    Yes I would do. When I was in school we were told men can't help themselves and its our responsibility to not "lead them on", all that crap. I think schools have a real duty to promote equality between the sexes. That means respect, and respect goes both ways. Girls can be very emotionally and psychologically cruel to guys, probably because we are led to believe they don't "feel" quite the same as we do.


    *Just in relationship to this. From what I remember of that 'hand shaking incident' it wasn't that the people had the attitude of 'ah sure he only raped her, what's the big deal' or 'she was asking to be raped' it was that they believed he hadn't raped her, that he was innocent.*

    I think the reason she wasn't believed was because her family weren't prominent enough in the town, and his was. Couldn't believe that so-and-so's son would rape anyone, rather than the individual himself. Open to correction from anyone from the area.


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    #219
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Haven't read the thread so I apologise..

    No problem.
    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    Nope - I don't think it's fun and games. Unconsenual groping, slapping, grabbing, assaulting is NEVER acceptable. Regardless of gender. And two wrongs don't make it right either btw. If a woman is found doing this to a man, it doesn't mean it's ok for a man to then say 'right I'm gonna grope this girl then - it's clearly not a big deal'.

    I agree. Neither is acceptable. However there has been much more acceptance shown on this thread for women groping/pinching men etc than the other way round. So it's all well and good the sluts hitting the walkway in Galway but does that really achieve a change in attitudes for either sex?


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    #220
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    prinz wrote: »
    Any cases of this happening here? Any examples? By the way a few pages ago in a post you thanked it was protesting about 'attitudes about what they wear' i.e. all women, not only about comments about actual rape victims.

    The problem is when you question a victims choices in some situations you are automatically assumed to be taking blame away from the criminal and putting it on the victim. That doesn't follow. Sometimes victims have behaved stupidly and didn't help themselves (male and female, rape victims and others) highlighting that fact isn't victim blaming, but it may help people in the future avoid the same... and yes when my OH is dressed up for going out and she's on her own she is more mindful of her own security, than if she was wearing jeans, runners and a hoodie for example. She says it herself, she often feels more vulnerable when she's attracting male attention because she's done up.. and she channels that into being more aware of who is around etc. Is the slutwalk a protest against her too? Should she be less mindful about her safety those times she feels most insecure?

    Posts were pre and after a shift at work. I am tired :). But what I wanted and am trying to say is that women don't deserve to be groped for dressing skimpily, AND don't deserve to be told they "asked for it" for the way they were dressed if they are raped.


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    #221
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Roisy7 wrote: »

    I spoke to a representative from the Rape Crisis Network and she told me there was no evidence that attire made a difference to rates of rape. In fact, the people who get raped most often are children :(

    Children are attacked more then women?
    That surprised me

    Did you mean to say "have children" so mothers?


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    #222
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    prinz wrote: »
    I agree. Neither is acceptable. However there has been much more acceptance shown on this thread for women groping/pinching men etc than the other way round. So it's all well and good the sluts hitting the walkway in Galway but does that really achieve a change in attitudes for either sex?

    Good point.

    I think the SlutWalk idea is a very 'out there' effective way of addressing the problem - it will get a lot of publicity and might make people think twice about groping women because of the way they're dressed!

    How do we combat the same for men? Do you think a male SlutWalk would be effective? I don't. Because I don't think men are groped for the way they dress wheras I think women have a much higher chance of getting groped if they're dressed up, make up on etc.

    Beyond groping, the SlutWalk addresses the obvious problem of rape which is a step further than the gobsh1te in a club who slaps/grabs/gropes women while drunk. I think it's good that it's addressing this.

    I would like to see a perhaps combined campaign that focuses on male rape and domestic abuse victims.


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    #223
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    strobe wrote: »
    Just in relationship to this. From what I remember of that 'hand shaking incident' it wasn't that the people had the attitude of 'ah sure he only raped her, what's the big deal' or 'she was asking to be raped' it was that they believed he hadn't raped her, that he was innocent.

    I of course agree that an attitude of 'so she was raped, she was asking for it' is abhorrent but I think trying to suggest that this is a common societal attitude and not just one held be a tiny number of freako nutjobs is at best misleading and personally I don't think the tiny percent of freako nutjobs are going to have their minds changed by girls dressing like Madonna and walking down a street.

    I think you'll find it was actually that she was from a council estate and he was from a family with land.

    "Believed he hadn't raped her". He didn't rape her , he was convicted of sexually assaulting her.

    "They believed he was innocent", with cctv documenting the whole thing there wasn't much room for doubt.

    No they knew, and they didn't care, because it was a case of who was the better connected.

    I'm glad that case came to light to show up an awful lot of people, imagine shaking the guys hand IN FRONT of the girl, pure pure fools, and the poor girl.


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    #224
    Wompa1
    Registered Users Posts: 8,170 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    Guys shouldn't be groped and fondled by every other hen night walking the streets in Galway...if you say anything to the women themselves or bar staff or whatever and get told they are just having a bit of fun, what do you do?

    I think if a girl went up and said some guy grabbed my groin to a barman the guy would at least be tossed out.

    But all this kind of talk is taking away from the actual Slutwalk...in that it's a complete BS movement. I read that it's part of some bigger Rape Awareness week so it doesn't seem as stupid but I'll stand by what I said earlier and says this slutwalk just takes away from the cause.


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    #225
    Roisy7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Roisy7


    mikemac wrote: »
    Children are attacked more then women?
    That surprised me

    Did you mean to say "have children" so mothers?

    Afraid it's not a typo :/ She said children. It really shocked me too, I nearly dropped my notebook. It was just going back to the point that some of the posters made about rape being a power, dominance thing over the most vulnerable, rather than about sexuality.

    Alot of rape and abuse occurs in the family, its far more common that the stranger attacking someone in an alley image we all have.


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    #226
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    I'm very suprised Roisy, was sure that was a typo

    Would never have figured that was the case

    I knew about your second sentence and that you are far more likely to be attacked by someone you know and possibly trust then a randomer on the street.

    And I believe there was no such thing as rape in a married couple until they changed the law, could be wrong on that

    Sure who knows what goes on behind closed doors as they say. There are lot of dysfunctional families out there :(


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    #227
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Wompa1 wrote: »
    Guys shouldn't be groped and fondled by every other hen night walking the streets in Galway...if you say anything to the women themselves or bar staff or whatever and get told they are just having a bit of fun, what do you do?

    I think if a girl went up and said some guy grabbed my groin to a barman the guy would at least be tossed out.

    But all this kind of talk is taking away from the actual Slutwalk...in that it's a complete BS movement. I read that it's part of some bigger Rape Awareness week so it doesn't seem as stupid but I'll stand by what I said earlier and says this slutwalk just takes away from the cause.

    I completely agree. What is it with hen parties nowadays? They seem to be getting wilder and rowdier and annoying the hell out of me nearly every weekend on a night out :mad:.

    And who the hell thinks it's acceptable to grab a guy's crotch on a night out? These women need to cop on. And barmen, managers need to change their attitude and take it seriously. As the guy said , if he tells a bar manager and he says it's just a bit of fun, what do you do?

    It's not right, and women need to tone down their utterly 'everything goes' attitude on a hen night.

    Maybe men should have a march about this :)


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    #228
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    jaffacakesyum wrote: »
    I would like to see a perhaps combined campaign that focuses on male rape and domestic abuse victims.

    Indeed. Any such campaign IMO should focus on basic rights and an individual's dignity, rather 'I wanna dress/act/behave/be a slut* and have no consequences' on one hand, and complain about misogyny and the objectification of women on the other.

    There is a schizophrenic aim some people seem to be aiming for in our world - wanting to be the sex object, while simultaneously not being perceived/ treated as one which is a bit of an immature aim.

    *insert bimbo or wag or other here as applicable.


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    #229
    wild_cat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭wild_cat


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Drunk on a hen night? Some women need to cop on as well. Crotch grabbing a stranger is not cool by any-one's standards.

    Generally if you're a gob****e sober your gonna be an even bigger gob****e pissed to.
    DeVore wrote: »
    To be fair, the majority of men wouldnt do it to women either. I know of none of my mates who have or would ever do it.

    Thats part of the male annoyance with the "feminist" thing. It just tars all men, so a touch more care about that would be appreciated because imho its pretty dirty brush.

    DeV.

    I whole heartedly agree.

    None of my male friends would do it either. They'd probably act out if they seen it happening to!

    Equality for all. None of this eighties era spare rib nonsense that all men are evil and utopia would exist if they were eradicated..


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    #230
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    prinz wrote: »
    Indeed. Any such campaign IMO should focus on basic rights and an individual's dignity, rather 'I wanna dress/act/behave/be a slut* and have no consequences' on one hand, and complain about misogyny and the objectification of women on the other.

    There is a schizophrenic aim some people seem to be aiming for in our world - wanting to be the sex object, while simultaneously not being perceived/ treated as one which is a bit of an immature aim.

    *insert bimbo or wag or other here as applicable.

    If there ever was a facepalm due it was this post.


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    #231
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    If there ever was a facepalm due it was this post.

    Yes, imagine people looking for dignity and respect for both sexes. Please note nothing in my post said it was ok to sexually assault or rape anyone, male or female, but I have a feeling once again that is how it is being understood.


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    #232
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    If there ever was a facepalm due it was this post.

    Can you explain what is wrong with the post?
    As I can't see it :confused:


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    #233
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    mikemac wrote: »
    Can you explain what is wrong with the post?
    As I can't see it :confused:

    Apparently you should be allowed to act like a slut/scumbag/junkie/player/etc etc but nobody is allowed to have an opinion of you based on that fact. That's all I can guess.

    Edit: Either that, or if you have a negative opinion of a girl as overly promiscuous or whatever, really you are just a rapist in waiting..


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    #234
    Logical Fallacy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    prinz wrote: »
    So the slutwalk is a complaint against a problem that doesn't exist..

    Interesting take on things.

    Did you purposefully miss the point to try and generate impact?

    I think so...as from what i have seen of your posting it doesn't lead me to believe that you are a dumbass.


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    #235
    The_Thing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,017 ✭✭✭The_Thing


    Slutwalks are nothing more than mastubatory fantasies come to life for the likes of radical feminists like Germaine Greer.


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    #236
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    Interesting take on things.
    Did you purposefully miss the point to try and generate impact?

    This is what I am trying to get at. I can see the point of the original march in Canada in light of the unfortunate wording of the comments from the Canadian police officer which sparked it off. I can't really see the point of the march here. It's sort of aimed at an alleged response to rape victims that personally I have never seen a high-profile Irish politician, garda, journalist etc etc make nor heard anyone known to me utter. The reaction seems to be 'we can't actually pin down anyone who agrees with the view that a woman shares the blame of her own rape.......... but it's out there'. There is an aspect of fearmongering about it. Is it out there? I don't think it's nearly as widespread an opinion as some would like to believe.


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    #237
    4leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    Part of the growing movement of the Slutwalk is they are reclaiming the word slut. Do you not find it odd that a man can be a slut and get a slap on the back and be admired by his mates and called a womaniser.

    While a woman will be just deemed a slut. So a slut is a complement for a man but an insult to a woman. The reason it is that way is because of us men. We kind of like our women "respectable" and chaste.

    I quote you Germaine Greer a very scary intellectual world renowned feminist who wrote this about the slutwalk

    "walkers are apt to say that the purpose of their action is to "reclaim the word". It's difficult, probably impossible, to reclaim a word that has always been an insult. And yet here are women spontaneously deciding to adopt it. Before we decide that thousands of our sisters are simply stupid or misguided, an attempt must be made to understand what's going on. The slut walk manifesto states: "Historically, the term 'slut' has carried a predominantly negative association. Aimed at those who were sexually promiscuous, be it for work or pleasure, it has primarily been women who have suffered under the burden of this label. We are tired of being oppressed by slut-shaming; of being judged by our sexuality…

    ............A little knowledge here misleads. Historically, the primary attribute of a slut is not promiscuity but dirt. The word denotes a "woman of dirty, slovenly, or untidy habits or appearance; a foul slattern". A now obsolete meaning connects it with a kitchen maid, whose life was lived in soot and grease. She was too dirty to be allowed above stairs, but drudged out her painful life scraping pans and riddling ash, for 16 hours a day, and then retreated to her squalid lodging where hot water could not be had. The corner she left unswept was the slut corner; the fluff that collected under the furniture was a slut ball. People who thought of sex as dirt suspected the lazy kitchen maid of being unclean in that way as well"


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    #238
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    prinz wrote: »
    Indeed. Any such campaign IMO should focus on basic rights and an individual's dignity, rather 'I wanna dress/act/behave/be a slut* and have no consequences' on one hand, and complain about misogyny and the objectification of women on the other.

    There is a schizophrenic aim some people seem to be aiming for in our world - wanting to be the sex object, while simultaneously not being perceived/ treated as one which is a bit of an immature aim.

    *insert bimbo or wag or other here as applicable.

    'I wanna dress/act/behave/be a slut* and have no consequences'

    I think the whole point of the walk is that dressing like that is NOT dressing like a slut. It's just talking round in circles. Cue my facepalm.


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    #239
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    4leto wrote: »
    Part of the growing movement of the Slutwalk is they are reclaiming the word slut. Do you not find it odd that a man can be a slut and get a slap on the back and be admired by his mates and called a womaniser.

    Yeah I do, and tbh I don't agree with that generalisation. I don't agree that going around sleeping with as many people as you can as something to be particularly proud of regardless of your sex. I would never slap a womaniser on the back and admire him. It's one of those things that men get generalised about once more.


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    #240
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I think the whole point of the walk is that dressing like that is NOT dressing like a slut. It's just talking round in circles. Cue my facepalm.

    Ah here...and dressing like a scumbag is not dressing like a scumbag. Dressing like a emo is not dressing like an emo...... So you don't think there's any way you can dress where someone else might think 'slapper'? You never look at a guy and think 'he's dressed like a slob/ eejit/ D4-head?


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    #241
    4leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    prinz wrote: »
    Yeah I do, and tbh I don't agree with that generalisation. I don't agree that going around sleeping with as many people as you can as something to be particularly proud of regardless of your sex. I would never slap a womaniser on the back and admire him. It's one of those things that men get generalised about once more.

    Well I have and most I grew up with has. But we have also called certain women sluts slags and many other derogative names for them exploring and expressing their sexuality without fear of that reputation.

    And if you are enlightened would you not agree that others should be to. But led by women as they reclaim it for themselves by the very public demonstration of the slutwalk.

    Gay people did it with gay pride, so why not women reclaim theirs with (I don't know) a woman's sexuality pride and added to that would be our attitude to a woman's period. How many times has that come up in a derogative put down from men and of course usually behind their backs.


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