Irish Slutwalk

DeVore

these are my thoughts on the matter. I dont necessaraily have a conclusion but maybe we can enlighten each other.

Firstly, when I use the word "rape" I'm talking about a violent attack on an unsuspecting person (I'll use "woman" for ease of reading).
I'm not talking about a sexual encounter that gets out of hand and potentially involves misunderstanding/miscommunication/ whatever. While I believe "No means No" I just want to discuss "on the street" attacks, as thats what most people mean when they discuss clothing affecting "rape".

So, here are some "seemingly" contradictory thoughts. They arent contradictory but they might seem so if you dont think them through carefully and logically.

1. No woman should ever be raped. Nothing the woman can do can excuse or lessen the guilt of the rapist. She could be nude and it wouldnt matter.

2. Women absolutely have the right to wear whatever they see fit to. Thats their choice and they should not be vilified for it. It shouldnt matter what she was wearing.

3. Just as women should be allowed to wear what they like, I should be able to walk where I like, when I like. I should not get robbed regardless of time or place where I choose to exercise my right of freedom of movement.

4. If I walk down some inner city streets wearing a suit and carrying a briefcase at night (as I have had to at times, i lived in North Central for a long time).... that should not excuse the thief if I am robbed.

5. It does make me rather silly if I insist on doing it repeatedly.



Now. we can all agree I shouldnt be robbed. Its not right. Its not right that I am constrained from walking where I like, when I like. Thats just wrong.

But until its safe, I would accept criticism from others to say "well, what the hell were you doing there at that time? You were foolish and bound to be robbed".

It doesnt make it right but if you want to believe we live in a perfect society you are going to find out in a very unpleasant way that we just DONT.

We *should* and we should never stop trying to.... but right now, we just dont.

DeV.

Cianos

TelePaul wrote: »

Well, is suspect those capable of rape will still be capable of rape, while those who are incapable and are horrified by the prospect will continue to be so-inclined. Really, the Slut Walk itself makes no sense, even as a format - do you think it'll somehow impress upon a person that the act of rape is wrong? It's hardly a topic with which people find themselves undecided on.

"Yeah, I was going to rape someone tonight, but those provocatively-dressed women parading through town have changed my mind".

It's not actually the point of the march. It's to challenge the views that women who dress provocatively bring it on themselves. That's it. And it's a very valid message. Imagine your wife, daughter, sister being raped and the police are blasé about it because she happened to be dressed up a little too revealing by their standards for a night out?

sensibleken

The King of Moo wrote: »

While I don't condone women groping men either, I believe that there usually is a difference in terms of power relations.

If a girl gropes a guy it's a rare event, but guys grope girls much more often, you can see that in any nightclub on any night. Therefore it's much more tiresome for women.

More importantly, by and large, a guy will be much physically stronger than a girl meaning if he chooses to grope her forcefully or even rape her, there might not be much she could do to stop it, physically. And lots of men persist in trying to chat up or grope a girl who's not interested, which can be very intimidating.
So a guy groping a girl can be threatening.

Think of it like the principle behind bullying. It's the more powerful (physically, in this sense) attacking the weaker.

I dont know about that. I get groped all the time in clubs by girls. I don't think its right and it doesnt stop me giving out **** to them when i catch them.

that being said i do see the difference. I can scare them into not doing it again, a woman could not as easily

Standard Toaster

Hey Rapists, Go Fuck Yourselves. Fair play slutswalkers

skregs

sensibleken wrote: »

I get groped all the time in clubs by girls

No you don't, you fukken liar.

J. Marston

Matthew23 wrote: »

ah now I tell ya you'll need more than pins. some heavy duty storm resistant tent pegs, whaling nets and a couple of stout longshoremen will probably just about do the job

That's brilliant.

Seen a few pictures of the walk on Twitter. Not an ounce of sluttiness to be seen.
There was a fella with a funny ''Make Love, Not Rape'' placard though.

The King of Moo

FetchTheGin wrote: »

Wow.

The exact double standards some people in this thread are talking about.

And I think double standards apply in this case as the experiences are generally different.

If a girl grabbed my crotch (never happened to me but I've had my arse grabbed a fair few times and though I was flattered at first it gets old quick) I wouldn't like it and I'd probably tell her to f**k off, but I wouldn't have much fear of her overpowering me and forcing herself on me, and she probably wouldn't keep pestering me after I gave out to her.

But if it happens to a girl the power relations are different, based largely on differences between physical size and strength, so a grope is more intimidating.
I think it's also a fair point to make that not all, or even the majority, but a noticeable proportion of Irish men will continue to pursue a girl who isn't interested in them, which can come across as aggressive and intimidating.

CiaranC

Standard Toaster wrote: »

Hey Rapists, Go Fuck Yourselves. Fair play slutswalkers

Sorry, this march is aimed at non-rapists according to Cianos there.

Does a kid dressing like a nerd make him more likely to be bullied? Anyone?

sensibleken

skregs wrote: »

No you don't, you fukken liar.

how nice of you

revell

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

He didn't say 'by going out on night's out in revealing clothing' you make it more likely that somebody will rape you - He said that women wearing revealing clothes may cause men to think they're ''up for it''.

don't they?

The King of Moo

CiaranC wrote: »

Sorry, this march is aimed at non-rapists according to Cianos there.

Does a kid dressing like a nerd make him more likely to be bullied? Anyone?

I think it's hard to determine if it does or not, but that's irrelevant as he can dress however he wants, and the bully is solely responsible for bullying him. No-one's forcing the bully to bully the kid.

Shakeyspears

Best idea for a protest ever. Definitely isn't the first one in Ireland, they take place every weekend ;in every nightclub through the country....

TelePaul

Cianos wrote: »

It's not actually the point of the march. It's to challenge the views that women who dress provocatively bring it on themselves.That's it. And it's a very valid message.

I disagree. Again, who's views are being challenged here? I wouldn't waste time trying to convince those who are of the opinion that those suffering rape have brought it upon themselves. I think it's a pretty black and white issue that only stands to be trivialised by undertakings of this type - just look at some of the comments here, few seem willingness to recognise the aims of the march or take it any way seriously.

Cianos wrote: »

Imagine your wife, daughter, sister being raped and the police are blasé about it because she happened to be dressed up a little too revealing by their standards for a night out?

I really don't believe this attitude represents anything close to the status quo. A rather stupid quote has been attributed to one police officer, yet people seem to suggest that his attitude is representative of all authorities...or maybe all men? Either way, I'd take issue with any assumptions of this kind.

prinz

As a side note I'd agree lots of males act like complete and total utter fools when it comes to giving women unwanted attention especially in pubs and niteclubs. They can be absolute tossers.

I'd also argue that it has more to do with general perceptions than what a woman happens to be wearing on any given day.

However this notion that women should be able to wear whatever she wants, whenever she wants, and somehow be immune from negative attention is a pipe dream.

When you look for attention from people, the negative comes with the poisitive. It's a fact of life. Whether it's 'slutty' clothing, or a flash car, or spending lots of cash, or a nice watch. For every person to be impressed and give you genuine 'good' attention, there'll always be someone with a chip on their shoulder and a reason to base it on, the clothes you wear, the nice phone you have, etc etc. You need to take precautions against this going from mere attention into physical or sexual assault.

In an ideal world we could all wear what we want, when we wanted, but we don't live in an ideal world. A woman can't wear what she wants and demand only one kind of attention, any more than a man can cruise around in his new convertible and demand only positive attention.

Scanlas The 2nd

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

He didn't say 'by going out on night's out in revealing clothing' you make it more likely that somebody will rape you - He said that women wearing revealing clothes may cause men to think they're ''up for it''.

I do think women who wear revealing clothing on a night out are morel likely to be interested in finding a man for a sexual relationship. I think it fairly obvious that's the case.

Just because someone thinks a woman may be interested in finding someone does not mean they think she is interested in every man on the planet and it allows him to sexually assault her.

This is all very basic stuff. I don't see the problem here.

CiaranC

The King of Moo wrote: »

I think it's hard to determine if it does or not, but that's irrelevant as he can dress however he wants, and the bully is solely responsible for bullying him. No-one's forcing the bully to bully the kid.

Yeah its the bullies fault. I get that. Everyone gets that.

Not sure I follow your point though.

Are we saying that a kid dressing like a nerd causes him to be more likely to attract the attention of bullies, but that a woman dressing like a prostitute does not cause her to be more likely to attract the attention of a groper?

How does that work?

And whats the solution if your kid is getting bullied for wearing thick specs and platform shoes? Start a worldwide campaign to change everyones perceptions on thick specs and platform shoes? Or buy him some clobber so he doesnt look like a little twat?

Cianos

DeVore wrote: »

Now. we can all agree I shouldnt be robbed. Its not right. Its not right that I am constrained from walking where I like, when I like. Thats just wrong.

But until its safe, I would accept criticism from others to say "well, what the hell were you doing there at that time? You were foolish and bound to be robbed".

It doesnt make it right but if you want to believe we live in a perfect society you are going to find out in a very unpleasant way that we just DONT.

We *should* and we should never stop trying to.... but right now, we just dont.

DeV.

Unless there are reliable stats on the likelihood of being raped according to what type of clothes you're wearing, it's impossible to say the analogy is most relevant when applied to clothes.

My guess is that there are other mistakes girls make that put them at a much higher risk that negate the factor of what they happen to be wearing - letting a guy you just met walk you home, not letting your friends know where you are, not keeping an eye on your drink, walking alone on a quiet road etc. These are common, real scenarios that leave women vulnerable.

Will a potential rapist attack girl A given the chance, but not girl B given the chance, because she was more covered up? It seems a bit inapplicable to real world situations imo.

And this is the crux of the issue at hand and hopefully the lasting impression of the march(es)...the perception that IF the victim was dressed in a way that some disapprove of, then she gets treated differently to someone who was dressed in a more conservative manner. When in reality, she was probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time - as insensitive as that sounds.

prinz

Cianos wrote: »

My guess is that there are other mistakes girls make that put them at a much higher risk that negate the factor of what they happen to be wearing - letting a guy you just met walk you home, not letting your friends know where you are, not keeping an eye on your drink, walking alone on a quiet road etc. These are common, real scenarios that leave women vulnerable.

Will a potential rapist attack girl A given the chance, but not girl B given the chance, because she was more covered up? It seems a bit inapplicable to real world situations imo. .

Nail and head.

Which is why IMO campaigns to raise the issue of rape should focus on real concerns and issues like the preventative measures above and stop trying to stir up a bit of good old fashioned gender division to suit an agenda. It strikes me as more of 'girl power' statement than real concern about trying to prevent sexual violence in the future, and while the two may align in areas, it just serves to undermine their alleged aim as far as I see it.

The King of Moo

CiaranC wrote: »

Yeah its the bullies fault. I get that. Everyone gets that.

Not sure I follow your point though.

Are we saying that a kid dressing like a nerd causes him to be more likely to attract the attention of bullies, but that a woman dressing like a prostitute does not cause her to be more likely to attract the attention of a groper?

How does that work?

And whats the solution if your kid is getting bullied for wearing thick specs and platform shoes? Start a worldwide campaign to change everyones perceptions on thick specs and platform shoes? Or buy him some clobber so he doesnt look like a little twat?

I think a kid dressed like a nerd is probably more likely to be bullied as the clothes tell the bully something about the kid's personality, whether that's true or not. It's not the clothes, it's what they signify (a nerdy personality) that attracts the bully.

I think rape is different though, as I don't think revealing clothes are more likely to attract a rapist, as I don't think most rapists commit rape for sexual pleasure.

In terms of revealing clothes making women more of a target for groping, I'm not sure if they do or not.
I know the men I've seen groping women didn't seem to be too discriminating in their tastes.
Even so, I still think it shouldn't be an issue in the first place, as I just don't get why anyone would grope a member of the opposite sex uninvited.

Cianos

TelePaul wrote: »

I disagree. Again, who's views are being challenged here? I wouldn't waste time trying to convince those who are of the opinion that those suffering rape have brought it upon themselves. I think it's a pretty black and white issue that only stands to be trivialised by undertakings of this type - just look at some of the comments here, few seem willingness to recognise the aims of the march or take it any way seriously.

It's not a black and white issue because it's very rarely discussed. Rape itself is rarely discussed, never mind the perceptions of the behavior of the victim. Someone mentioned above that ~40% of people think if a girl dresses in a revealing manner she is partly to blame for getting raped.

I really don't believe this attitude represents anything close to the status quo. A rather stupid quote has been attributed to one police officer, yet people seem to suggest that his attitude is representative of all authorities...or maybe all men? Either way, I'd take issue with any assumptions of this kind.

I don't think people feel it represents all authorities or men for that matter. But it's a valid concern that victims of rape may not be taken seriously for something trivial like their clothing. If the above stat can also be applied to those in authority, then it's a valid cause worth marching about.

DeVore

Cianos wrote: »

Unless there are reliable stats on the likelihood of being raped according to what type of clothes you're wearing, it's impossible to say the analogy is most relevant when applied to clothes.

My guess is that there are other mistakes girls make that put them at a much higher risk that negate the factor of what they happen to be wearing - letting a guy you just met walk you home, not letting your friends know where you are, not keeping an eye on your drink, walking alone on a quiet road etc. These are common, real scenarios that leave women vulnerable.

Will a potential rapist attack girl A given the chance, but not girl B given the chance, because she was more covered up? It seems a bit inapplicable to real world situations imo.

And this is the crux of the issue at hand and hopefully the lasting impression of the march(es)...the perception that IF the victim was dressed in a way that some disapprove of, then she gets treated differently to someone who was dressed in a more conservative manner. When in reality, she was probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time - as insensitive as that sounds.

Rape is not about sex, its about power.

Its typically executed by men who feel some lack of power and want to feel powerful.

Many will justify it to themselves as "she loved it, she was asking for it" because of her clothing.

Others will attack a women in skimpy clothing because they perceive her as weak and easier to have power over, than a woman who is wearing a suit and slacks. Its called "power dressing" for a reason.

Personally I would have little doubt that, while it isnt the only factor, its definitely a factor.

DeV.

The J Stands for Jay

4leto wrote: »

suicide_circus wrote: »

Provocative clothing is designed to do just that, provoke.

But so what, that doesn't mean you should act on a provocation, if anyone wants to dress sexy they are free to so. Even if a woman was to lay naked on a nudist beach that is not an invitation to a man to have sex.

Would you rather woman dressed in a Nijab as they do in some Moslem countries.

Germaine Greer is actually a big supporter of this form of protest.

Just because I walk the streets with two grand in fifties hanging out of my back pocket, I am more likely to be robbed. If I get told doing that increased my chances of being robbed, is that wrong?

Maybe a march should be held for people who want to wear celtic jerseys in the wrong part of belfast

prinz

There's an unrelated thread on AH with the title 'Agreeing with the message but not the medium'.. for me that applies here.

Raising concerns about rape and the treatment of victims is a serious, serious issue. One deserving of a dignified and solemn protest, not a 'slutwalk' circus that looks like it involves promoting some notion of feminism more than victims rights.

It strikes me like organising a protest against racism and then doing blackface and jazz hands up O'Connell Street.

Cianos

DeVore wrote: »

Rape is not about sex, its about power.

Its typically executed by men who feel some lack of power and want to feel powerful.

Many will justify it to themselves as "she loved it, she was asking for it" because of her clothing.

Others will attack a women in skimpy clothing because they perceive her as weak and easier to have power over, than a woman who is wearing a suit and slacks. Its called "power dressing" for a reason.

Personally I would have little doubt that, while it isnt the only factor, its definitely a factor.

DeV.

I agree with you, rape is driven by the lust for sexual dominance and power. But the question stands does a woman actually put herself more at risk to a significant degree according to what she's wearing, for it to justify the perceptions of how responsible she was or wasn't being?

How often would a rapist not rape someone, all other factors being equal in a high risk scenario, because of what she was wearing?

monkeybutter

DeVore wrote: »

Rape is not about sex, its about power.

Its typically executed by men who feel some lack of power and want to feel powerful.

Many will justify it to themselves as "she loved it, she was asking for it" because of her clothing.

Others will attack a women in skimpy clothing because they perceive her as weak and easier to have power over, than a woman who is wearing a suit and slacks. Its called "power dressing" for a reason.

Personally I would have little doubt that, while it isnt the only factor, its definitely a factor.

DeV.

I am attracted to women in short skirts and skimpy tops, that's their purpose, so they are just as likely to attract a rapist as they are to attract that stud at the bar.

smash

prinz wrote: »

Raising concerns about rape and the treatment of victims is a serious, serious issue. One deserving of a dignified and solemn protest

Protest will not result in prevention when it comes to rape. A rapist will not change their mind because they've seen a protest. If it's raises awareness then job done. Doesn't matter how they do it.

Hyperbullet

bicardi19 wrote: »

Or stride of pride!!

More like the walk of "fair play to ya!".

4leto

McGaggs wrote: »

Just because I walk the streets with two grand in fifties hanging out of my back pocket, I am more likely to be robbed. If I get told doing that increased my chances of being robbed, is that wrong?

Maybe a march should be held for people who want to wear celtic jerseys in the wrong part of belfast

Been robbed and walking through parts of Belfast with a celtic jersey on is an equal opportunities risk.

A woman dressing sexy as compared to a man dressing sexy is not.

strobe

prinz wrote: »

and then doing blackface and jazz hands up O'Connell Street.

I've never done one of those 'flash mob' things before but if you organise it Prinz, count me in.

goose2005

Cianos wrote: »

Unless there are reliable stats on the likelihood of being raped according to what type of clothes you're wearing, it's impossible to say the analogy is most relevant when applied to clothes.

My guess is that there are other mistakes girls make that put them at a much higher risk that negate the factor of what they happen to be wearing - letting a guy you just met walk you home, not letting your friends know where you are, not keeping an eye on your drink, walking alone on a quiet road etc. These are common, real scenarios that leave women vulnerable.

Will a potential rapist attack girl A given the chance, but not girl B given the chance, because she was more covered up? It seems a bit inapplicable to real world situations imo.

And this is the crux of the issue at hand and hopefully the lasting impression of the march(es)...the perception that IF the victim was dressed in a way that some disapprove of, then she gets treated differently to someone who was dressed in a more conservative manner. When in reality, she was probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time - as insensitive as that sounds.

Moreover, it gives an extremely tabloidy view of rape. Most rapes are carried out by husbands, boyfriends or acquaintances inside the home or at a party. It's not a dramatic attack by a "beast".

Cianos wrote: »

It's not a black and white issue because it's very rarely discussed. Rape itself is rarely discussed, never mind the perceptions of the behavior of the victim. Someone mentioned above that ~40% of people think if a girl dresses in a revealing manner she is partly to blame for getting raped.

BUT NO-ONE EVER SAYS THAT THIS DIMINISHES THE RAPIST'S CULPABILITY. If I walked down an alley in a dodgy are wearing an expensive suit and watch, and tapping at an iPad, I would be partially to blame for being mugged, but that wouldn't excuse my mugger at all.