Irish Slutwalk

holystungun9

Is it like on Jerry Springer or something? We have to guess which ones are men?

Napper Hawkins

HazDanz wrote: »

FFS :rolleyes:

I might be wrong, but I think he/she is being sarcastic.

Joe10000

I think it is a vulgar demonstration, feminism goes way over board at times.

Rape is a terrible crime but I cannot see how this protest will do anything to advance the cause of women.

Scanlas The 2nd

The King of Moo wrote: »

I believe that men and women are equal in terms of intelligence etc. but you can't apply that sense of equality to biology.
.

You might want to review that belief. IQ tests have shown again and again that men are on average more intelligent than women. Also white people are smarter than black people and asian smarter than white people on average. Although per inch of height women are smarter than men. So if you picked an man and woman randomly chances are the man would be smarter, but if you picked a 5 foot 9 man and woman randomly chances are the woman would be smarter.

WhatNowForUs?

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

You might want to review that belief. IQ tests have shown again and again that men are on average more intelligent than women. Also white people are smarter than black people and asian smarter than white people on average. Although per inch of height women are smarter than men. So if you picked an man and woman randomly chances are the man would be smarter, but if you picked a 5 foot 9 man and woman randomly chances are the woman would be smarter.

This gives statistics a bad name.

WhatNowForUs?

Have we any pictures come through yet.

K-9

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

This gives statistics a bad name.

I thought it was, more women tended to be of average intelligence, whereas men were more likely to either be very intelligent or not!

FetchTheGin

4leto wrote: »

They are not protesting about what they wear. They are protesting against attitudes and assumptions taken about what they wear. Attitudes like yours, which to be frank, is saying to me a woman is complicit in her rape by what she is wearing and a woman deserves to be treated derogatory and as a sex object by what she chooses to wear.

I know what you are saying, they have an option, to dress in sexless clothes like a nijab or as Mao Chinese women use to.

All they want to do is highlight attitudes, that's all, that may not change anything but it will add to awareness of the women's cause in general.

It's hysterical assumptions like that, that give people like you a stick to beat others with.

As I said earlier in the thread, no one should have to endure assault and should be able to wear what they like.

It is amazing, some idiot makes a comment and the entire gender gets punished.

scotchy

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Have we any pictures come through yet.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1006/1224305330341.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/in-pictures-women-hit-streets-for-slutwalk-protest-246276-Oct2011/

Not really that slutty

:mad:

.

LeeHoffmann

I thought it was, more women tended to be of average intelligence, whereas men were more likely to either be very intelligent or not!

I think it's a joke

veryangryman

Check out the badges that you can buy - picture on the bottom of wiki page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

Sign me up for 10!

Scanlas The 2nd

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

This gives statistics a bad name.

It's true.Google the studies.

baltimore sun

sluts are awesome, most of us would still be virgins if it wasn't for them, god bless their cotton socks for keeping their ankles warm

LeeHoffmann

It's true.Google the studies.

From the studies I've read, it's been showed that men have greater variety in IQ (i.e. more men at either extreme) not that they have greater average IQ. Asian people have consistently performed better on IQ tests than any other ethnic group. Black people have tended to score lower but again, studies have shown that subtle cues such as having a black invigilator rather than a white invigilator (as an example) is correlated with significant increase in IQ scores. Moreover, self-efficacy is widely accepted to be one of the key components of academic performance so your assertion that white men get better scores seems like a bit of a no-brainer, rather than some immutable biological law.

Scanlas The 2nd

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

From the studies I've read, it's been showed that men have greater variety in IQ (i.e. more men at either extreme) not that they have greater average IQ. Asian people have consistently performed better on IQ tests than any other ethnic group. Black people have tended to score lower but again, studies have shown that subtle cues such as having a black invigilator rather than a white invigilator (as an example) is correlated with significant increase in IQ scores. Moreover, self-efficacy is widely accepted to be one of the key components of academic performance so your assertion that white men get better scores seems like a bit of a no-brainer, rather than some immutable biological law.

It's also been shown consistently across the world in numerous studies that men's IQs are between 3-5 points higher than women's on average as well as having a a higher variance of IQ levels.

How does self efficacy explain that a 5 foot 10 woman on average scores higher than a 5 foot 10 man.?

LeeHoffmann

If you understand the meaning of the term 'self efficacy' the answer should be clear to you. I have never seen a study that showed that - not one, never mind it being consistently shown. Self-efficacy is likely to account for such variances though imo. Never mind the fallibility and narrow-mindedness of the tests themselves. Taking all of this and the histry of IQ testing into account, I do not accept for one second that white people are more intelligent than black people or that men are more intelligent than women or that tall people are more intelligent than short people (even with your qualifier 'on average'). I'd question the intelligence of somebody who does.

jackie1974

I do not like this idea at all. I think the feminist movement will have the opposite effect using the word 'slut' It's like we're sluts and we're proud. 'Slut' is a label and it will never be a nice one.

I totally agree that everybody is entitled to their sexual freedom, I can sleep with who I want when I want, that does not make me a slut, so as long as i'm sexually healthy and not putting anybody elses health at risk i'm entitled to have sex. It certainly does not make me a slut.


There is a lot of psychological evidence that shows people react to others according to what they see. Just one example, research has shown that good looking people get reduced sentences in court for the exact same offences as somebody not so good looking. Studies show that a good looking person will more likely have a door held for them, get more help while shopping etc.. purely because of how they look. This shows we are treated according to how we look whether we like it or not, it doesn't make it right but it is a fact.

A woman should be able to walk out naked without the fear of being attacked, there is no such thing as a rape victim that deserves it, was asking for it etc.. but there's dirty cnuts out there that every female needs to do everything possible to protect herself from and that includes not falling around full of drink with very little on, it is a recipe for disaster. I see it all of the time when i'm collecting my daughters from disco's, there's kids with skirts that do not cover their asses and belly tops tottering around in heels like baby giraffes, half pissed, they are at risk, they don't deserve to be at risk but they are. They are not old enough to protect themselves and their clothes make a potential rapist think they are fair game, when a rapist looks at a girl he thinks looks slutty he has already dehumanised her and will rape her with no remorse. It's wrong but that is the way it is and I don't think a slut parade is going to change the way a rapist thinks if anything it's going to do the opposite.

I get the idea of the parade, we should be able to wear what we like but we should also be able to leave our doors unlocked, leave our kids walk to school alone, leave our handbags on the table when we go to the loo, leave our drinks unattended but we live in a messed up world where we have to take precautions, if anything I think the parade and it's sentiments will put more women at risk.

LeeHoffmann

Again the slut parade has two different aims - 1. to reclaim the word slut. 2 - to challenge the notion that women are responsible (to some degree) for being raped if they weear revealing clothes.
In relation to aim 1, I agree with you jackie, and I'd draw parallels with the way that some black people call each other 'nig*er' - i don't think it helps. In relation to aim 2, I think the slutwalk has a valid purpose. It is standard policy in rape cases, to discuss the victim's clothing and the number of sexual partners she's had - as if that has any impact on the guilt or innocence of the accused. As if he's less guilty (or more guilty) because of what she's wearing or because of how many men she's slept with in life.

smash

Did anyone actually go to this?

Dyr

dope:"how can we avoid being run over by car's ossifer?"

copper: "maybe look both ways before you cross, and if you're on unlit roads wear high visiblity apparel or at least avoid dark clothing"

dope:"are you telling me how to dress just so some MAN won't run me over??"

copper:"ehhh...yewha'?"

dope: "THATS IT, WE'RE GOING ON A JAYWALK...EVERYONE DRESS LIKE GOTHS"

and thus the human race gets slowly more retarded...

jackie1974

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

Again the slut parade has two different aims - 1. to reclaim the word slut. 2 - to challenge the notion that women are responsible (to some degree) for being raped if they weear revealing clothes.
In relation to aim 1, I agree with you jackie, and I'd draw parallels with the way that some black people call each other 'nig*er' - i don't think it helps. In relation to aim 2, I think the slutwalk has a valid purpose. It is standard policy in rape cases, to discuss the victim's clothing and the number of sexual partners she's had - as if that has any impact on the guilt or innocence of the accused. As if he's less guilty (or more guilty) because of what she's wearing or because of how many men she's slept with in life.

I agree, the victims clothing or no. of sexual partners has absolutely no bearing on the the accuseds guilt or innocence, none whatsoever.

As far as I know the first rally was suppossed to marched in everyday clothes not what is percieved to be 'slutty' and the 'slut' reference was directly from M S's comment but the public decided to come wearing 'slutty' clothes which kind of changed the whole idea behind the march.

FetchTheGin

jackie1974 wrote: »

I agree, the victims clothing or no. of sexual partners has absolutely no bearing on the the accuseds guilt or innocence, none whatsoever.

As far as I know the first rally was suppossed to marched in everyday clothes not what is percieved to be 'slutty' and the 'slut' reference was directly from M S's comment but the public decided to come wearing 'slutty' clothes which kind of changed the whole idea behind the march.

Which concludes that it was a "march against the evil menz".

The King of Moo

I think people still suggesting that women should perhaps take a little more care with how they dress on a night out are missing the point that that would probably have very little impact on rape statistics.

As has already been pointed out, most rapes are committed by a partner, close friend or family member, not by a stranger on a night out.

Secondly, rape is generally not committed out of sexual desire or frustration, but out of a desire to demonstrate one's power over another.

I doubt clothes are ever a factor in a rape case. What's more important to a rapist is having their victim in a vulnerable position where they can get away with it, not what they look like.

Would women wearing less-revealing clothes on nights out mean that they'd not get groped and leered at as much? Probably, but it wouldn't eliminate the problem.
And most women dress up to look good in their own eyes (like most men do) and from their friends' perspective, not just to attract a man.
Sure, if she looks nice she should expect to turn heads, but she shouldn't expect to be grabbed by the arse or crotch.

Anyway, I find it ridiculous when other men argue that girls wouldn't get unwanted sleazy attention if they dressed more conservatively.
Wouldn't it make more sense to argue that girls wouldn't get unwanted sleazy attention if lots of men in pubs and clubs didn't act like areseholes?

Some people have argued that the issue of men questioning whether the issue of women wearing revealing clothes leads men on is an issue that exists.
While it's not universal, it does exist.

I've heard it a few times regarding rape, and heard of a few cases of guards laughing at women who come to them after being raped.

And even just on the issue of groping, the number of men here questioning women's choice of clothes and not the neanderthal mentality of men who grope women, shows that at the very least the seeds of that attitude exist.

Scanlas The 2nd

LeeHoffmann wrote: »

If you understand the meaning of the term 'self efficacy' the answer should be clear to you. I have never seen a study that showed that - not one, never mind it being consistently shown. Self-efficacy is likely to account for such variances though imo. Never mind the fallibility and narrow-mindedness of the tests themselves. Taking all of this and the histry of IQ testing into account, I do not accept for one second that white people are more intelligent than black people or that men are more intelligent than women or that tall people are more intelligent than short people (even with your qualifier 'on average'). I'd question the intelligence of somebody who does.

Deny reality all you want.

http://www.iqtestexperts.com/iq-better.php


If self efficacy allows men to perform better than women in IQ tests why does this phenomenon allow women of the the same height to perform better? You are clinging to your fantasy of reality you want to be true. You aren't looking at this objectively, you are biased because of your ego.

dsmythy

Reclaim the word slut? Women use it against each other all the time. Several slutwalks in America have turned into lesbian walks instead. I wonder why

LeeHoffmann

:pac: thanks for that. That could be a nice catchphrase - I might put it as my signature.
Lee Hoffmann: biased because of my ego

4leto

I always thought that that assertion about rapist is false, that rape is about power only, its not, its about sexual pleasure or sexual relief from a very strong drive.

I know that is a controversial view, championed by some psychologists, but I think they are right and when dealing with somethings you are better off dealing with the facts.

It could be argued that all relationships is a power dynamic even loving ones.

But anyway, what I see in this thread there are 2 types of male poster, those that think women have enough equality and should be happy with their lot. Or the other as in my position women have not got equality and still have a long way to go.

Do you ever think about the worldwide position of women, its appalling, in most the world they are little more then chattel. In India a father sells them, then hands them off and virtually disowns them, in China its the same, in the moslem world they are merely male concubines and slaves (imo) and in the western tradition the father gives them away. These are all just attitudes and expectations from a tradition of male power.

I don't think it has to be that way, in Ireland and the west women have garnered a lot of equality, but our attitudes have to follow. The slutwalk is another step towards that.

LeeHoffmann

I always thought that that assertion about rapist is false, that rape is about power only, its not, its about sexual pleasure or sexual relief from a very strong drive.

There are people who have 'sexual addiction' who don't go raping other people. How do you account for that? One would imagine that there are other ways of getting relief rather than by attacking people. If rape were about sexual relief and pleasure, one would imagine that rapists would feel remorse afterwards. I think that lumping all rapists and all cases of rape into one category with one singular cause is lazy. Power and domination is certainly a factor. However, I also think that some people fancy sex, can't get it, don't give a sh1t about others' feelings so they rape somebody. They may enjoy humiliating the other person, even when that wasn't their primary motivation.

Rape isn't caused primarily by sexual attraction, otherwise people would be out raping people they're attracted to all the time, and only attractive people would get raped. I believe people rape others because they don't care one jot about the welfare of others. For some, a desire to cause destruction and pain, or a compulsion to prove that they are powerful plays a part. What you don't see is caring people attacking the people they're attracted to.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The King of Moo wrote: »

Of course I know what it is, but the vast majority of men and women are not equal in terms of physical strength. That's just biological fact, and it means groping or worse can be more intimidating for a woman.

I believe that men and women are equal in terms of intelligence etc. but you can't apply that sense of equality to biology.
Therefore the experience of sexual advances up to the level of arse-grabbing is not equal among men and women, generally.

Oh it sure is. There should be no special treatment for either sex when it comes to sexual assault. We should not be lenient on women because they are women.

And I'd never argue that it's ok for a man to get groped. But it doesn't normally have the same intimidation factor it can have for women being pestered by a man.
I abhor all sexual assault, from groping in a club to rape, no matter the gender of those involved, as any sane person would.
In fact, woman-on-man rape does occur, just not so commonly and it's rarely reported.

But man-on-woman rape happens more often as it's easier for a man to commit rape.

And while sexual assault is always terrible, more minor stuff like arse-grabbing is generally experienced differently by men and women.

It can be experienced differently depending on the person, not the sex of that person. Some women love it, some men hate it. This is something we must change...

The last part of your quote is exactly the type of thing you deny ever happens at all.
'why didnt you do something about it?' instead of 'why did he do that,terrible'. Doubting the story altogether and placing blame on the victim instead of the assaulter.

I did not place blame on the "Victim". I am trying to understand how all this happened and what was done to prevent it from happening or stop it while it was happening. It's because of how this story has been presented that I am wary of it's truth. Maybe it is exaggerated for some reason? Maybe it happened in a split second and she didn't have time to react? I want to understand what she did afterwards, if she done anything at all as it wasn't mentioned in the post.

Comments such as maybe she led him on,maybe she shouldn't have gone home with him,maybe she should have dressed more conservatively,she shouldn't have been drunk and it wouldn't have hppened?all these comments neglect do place the blame where it belongs-on the rapist.if you think that attitudes that the slutwalk were protesting against don't happen in Ireland,then you are kidding yourself.They are so engrained that you don't even notice them as being wrong.

Apologies for typos,ipod!

Agree totally. Not a single % of the blame should be put on the victim, regardless of what scenario she is in. Walking naked through an area with a high rape % is simply retarded, but she still doesn't deserve it.

Also;

www.clotheslineproject.org/No_Means_No.htm

iptba

dsmythy wrote: »

Reclaim the word slut? Women use it against each other all the time.

You stole my point - I was just reading the 20th page thinking I could make this point and then you say it!

Anyway, better add something:
It was a feminist society who organised the march and feminists, probably particularly the more committed who might join such a society, have a tendency to blame men for anything and everything.