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Irish Slutwalk

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13567…12

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    #62
    CiaranC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
    It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg.
    You are confusing "man" with "rapist"


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    #63
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    So let's say one lad pops down to the shops dressed as Hitler, and another in jeans and a tshirt. What other people think of both men is identical?
    I'm going to guess that different people have different thoughts :confused: To use your example, does a guy dressing up like Hitler cause someone to think he wants to be murdered?
    Provocative clothing is designed to do just that, provoke.
    provoke what?...rape?


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    #64
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    FetchTheGin wrote: »
    Hmmmm, one is dressed as a mass murdering dictator, so I am guessing, no they aren't identical.

    Which kind of undermines the point that you can't cause somebody to think something by virtue of what you are wearing doesn't it..


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    #65
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    CiaranC wrote: »
    You are confusing "man" with "rapist"

    No I think you'll find that you are.

    The march is aimed at all unwanted attention, and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.


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    #66
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,777 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Yeah but attention = okay. Being groped and at the extreme end: raped is not.
    It's making men sound like neanderthals who can't control themselves when they see a bit of leg. What next, we will all be dressed as muslim women because men can't control themselves seeing a bit of flesh? I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

    I absolutely agree but my point is that risk management is just common sense advice and does not invoke any victim-blaming. As for the line "how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?", I agree - nobody should have any say unless you're actually breaking the law - but the point has been made that this is a movement that is defining itself sexually by using male-created terms such as "slut" (which I hear women use a lot more than men).

    If anything, the idea of dressing ironically as a 'slut' and painting it on your midriff to remove the power of the word actually sounds more like a march for guilt-free promiscuity, no? To me at least, it doesn't seem the next logical step to remove abhorrent victim-blaming in rape cases.


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    #67
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    mod:
    pacquiao banned. Being a dick. Posts quoting him removed because lets not give the dumb-assed comments the gift of being read.


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    #68
    stovelid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.

    Bit of a slur against transvestites?


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    #69
    Matthew23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Matthew23


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    Men's perceptions need to change, I think they think of "rapists" as far seperate to themselves

    well excuse me but that IS a perfectly reasonable thing for 99% of men to think. stick to feminism, this misandry thing is not pleasant


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    #70
    supersparkz
    Registered Users Posts: 295 ✭✭supersparkz


    4leto wrote: »
    So when and where is this I want to go in and ogle err I mean support.

    Your mission is to find and take photos.....And you will choose to accept it!:P:P


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    #71
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    The march is aimed at all unwanted attention, and groping by men when dressed in short skirts/ tight tops.

    When is the march for men against being groped by women? I can confidently say I have been groped more times by strange women than I have by strange men. Any chance the slutwalk is going to raise the question about that phenomenon?

    I also seem to remember an ad from tv where a man (a waiter I seem to recall) without his asking had his arse pinched by someone at a table of women. But sure it was all in good fun, tee hee hee.


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    #72
    FetchTheGin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭FetchTheGin


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    I think this march is excellent: we wear what we want, how dare men have any say over what we want to wear really?

    One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

    Bitter much?


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    #73
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    Which kind of undermines the point that you can't cause somebody to think something by virtue of what you are wearing doesn't it..
    No it doesn't at all. See my post above. Think about what you're saying. You think that I can cause you to think anything? Not your own judgement of what I say or do? Not your own perceptions and rationale? I think you're confusing ''cause'' with ''influence''


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    #74
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,777 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    Pics on Twitter, everyone's wrapped up extremely warm - I don't blame them in our weather :D


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    #75
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    I think you're confusing ''cause'' with ''influence''

    Debate that the rapist. I didn't cause you to think I was up for it, I only influenced you to think I was up for it....


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    #76
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    FetchTheGin wrote: »
    One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

    Bitter much?

    FetchtheGin I'm not even talking about that police officer, don't tell me you haven't heard before : she was asking for it, she was dressed provocatively.

    No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change.


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    #77
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    Debate that the rapist. I didn't cause you to think I was up for it, I only influenced you to think I was up for it....
    I'm debating with you (and any others who think that a rape victim is in any way responsible for their rape). Explain what you mean by 'up for it'. Do you perceive a difference between being ''up for'' sex and being ''up for'' rape?


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    #78
    Thud
    Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Thud


    The King of Moo wrote: »
    I tried to find some studies to link to in my original post, but apparently it's difficult to get data and create such a study.

    Personally I don't think dress makes any difference. As someone else said, I think it's usually about asserting dominance rather than sexual desire.


    We could set up either
    (a)a controlled study where we send a large group of girls out on alternative days dressed sluttily on day one and then dressed unsluttily on the second day and record the number of sexual assaults on each day
    or
    (b)we could add a box for the police/gardai to tick on their reports: "Was victim dressed like a slut: yes/no"


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    #79
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    I'm debating with you (and any others who think that a rape victim is in any way responsible for their rape).

    Yep here we go. Been round this particular roundabout before if memory serves. Responsibility for the rape doesn't have to be shared out 90:10, or 60:40. The rapist is 100% responsible for the act of rape so you can drop that rubbish for a start.

    Won't even bother with the second part.


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    #80
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    No she wasn't asking for it, these perceptions need to change.

    ..and to change the perceptions that it's ok for women to grope men? When is the march for that?


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    #81
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    FetchTheGin wrote: »
    One idiot Police officer in Canada makes a throwaway comment and you blame all men.

    Bitter much?

    My understanding was the he made a comment about one way to avoid being raped was not to dress like a slut...some major league knee jerking elevated the issue beyond that.


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    #82
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Matthew23 wrote: »
    well excuse me but that IS a perfectly reasonable thing for 99% of men to think. stick to feminism, this misandry thing is not pleasant

    :rolleyes: Read what I'm saying.

    I'm not saying all men are rapists. But this march isn't just aimed at rapists. how could it be aimed at just rapists, is there a small little group of them somewhere?

    This march is giving out the message that it is ok for women to wear what they want on a night out without receiving unwanted attention and groping, (and at the extreme end - not being raped).


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    #83
    Cochore
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭Cochore


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1KHqi9bXc


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    #84
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    Yep here we go. Been round this particular roundabout before if memory serves. Responsibility for the rape doesn't have to be shared out 90:10, or 60:40. The rapist is 100% responsible for the act of rape so you can drop that rubbish for a start. Won't even bother with the second part.
    You said women cause men to think they're up for it in some way. That means you are saying they are responsible. If you do perceive a difference between being ''up for'' sex and ''up for'' rape then you should also realise the following:
    1. Somebody being up for sex doesn't mean they're up for sex with anyone and everyone
    2. Being up for being raped is a contradiction in terms (i.e. not possible).


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    #85
    The Big Red Button
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,390 ✭✭✭The Big Red Button


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    chatterpillar wrote: »
    This is disgusting.

    I certainly do not think that the way a girl is dressed should EVER be an excuse to rape her.

    But what the fck is the point in a big group of girls tarting themselves up and basically proclaiming themselves to be "sluts"? Counterproductive surely?

    All it's doing is creating a mental association between the word "slut" and girls who are dressed a certain way. For some, this is creating a link; for others, it is reinforcing an opinion they already held. Either way, can't see how these "slutwalks" could possibly help any cause.

    "tarting themselves up" show's your own opinion of girls dressed like this maybe? the whole point of it is it's taking the power out of the word "slut". Why shouldn't women dress how they want to without being groped, or fear of something happening, I think this march is an excellent way forward.

    No.

    I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"


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    #86
    FetchTheGin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭FetchTheGin


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    No.

    I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"

    I think it is more like a march for the bitter women parade.

    There is no agenda apart from a bit of bra-burning and man hating.


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    #87
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    LeeHoffmann wrote: »
    You said women cause men to think they're up for it in some way. That means you are saying they are responsible..

    Eh, not it doesn't mean that they are responsible for themselves getting raped, and you even helpfully explained why..
    1. Somebody being up for sex doesn't mean they're up for sex with anyone and everyone


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    #88
    Matthew23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Matthew23


    midlandsmissus wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Read what I'm saying.

    I'm not saying all men are rapists. But this march isn't just aimed at rapists. how could it be aimed at just rapists, is there a small little group of them somewhere?

    This march is giving out the message that it is ok for women to wear what they want on a night out without receiving unwanted attention and groping, (and at the extreme end - not being raped).

    i did read what you are saying and it is utter nonsense. the march is giving out the message that it is ok to wear these clothes, fine, but a march doesnt possess some sort of divine providence that will decide that, the march having taken place, women wont get raped or recieve unwanted attention. it is utterly fatuous.

    and you may not have intended to say all men are rapists, but the fact is that the vastest majority of men are as far removed from rape as you are from sense, a distinction which you blurred in your remarks.

    it is people like you who hold back the advancement of women's rights with the kind of mischaracterisations and bawling nonsense you have spewed here.


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    #89
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and to change the perceptions that it's ok for women to grope men? When is the march for that?

    Organize the march for it then :). People organize marches about something that affects them.

    And I know so many girls who as I have said, have had hands stuck up skirts in nightclubs, and ALOT who have been sexually assaulted back at a house or somewhere like that. It's sadly a common thing.

    Why is it happening: I think a huge thing is that many men can differentiate between themselves, what they are doing from that of a "sexual assaulter".

    A sexual assault is usually by an acquaintance of a girl. It's not a creepy old man down an alleyway, it usually starts out like: kiss the girl, "no I dont want to do anything more" "ah she said no, but that just means 'not yet' really, if I kiss her a bit more" etc. No one wants to think of themselves as a sexual assaulter obviously.

    And this is not men's fault, it's society's. Previous society has taught that; dressing provocatively = wanting sex, and saying no= yes but just needs a bit more persuasion.

    First thing we need to get out there is: women have every right to dress how they want without unwanted touching from men.


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    #90
    LeeHoffmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭LeeHoffmann


    I think the original aim of such marches is to make clear that female rape victims shouldn't be condemned or held responsible because of their clothes. Then other people turned it into a campaign to 'reclaim' the word slut. I think that's what happened. I see the merit of the former aim but not the latter.


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    #91
    Cianos
    Registered Users Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Cianos


    chatterpillar wrote: »
    No.

    I dress up nicely on a night out. Doesn't mean I want to be groped etc. And I don't like that this campaign implies that, if a girl has a bit of leg or cleavage on display, it suddenly makes her a "slut"

    It's done in a fairly tongue in cheek way really in fairness. Using derogatory terms in a satirical way is an effective way to reduce their power.


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