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Stay and do something or get the hell away?!
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I think people are busy either working or looking for work. Demonstrating isn’t something that’s likely to enhance the average CV.JENNYWREN19 wrote: »I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave.
The recently-elected government are not doing their job?JENNYWREN19 wrote: »Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job.
No, the government are our representatives.JENNYWREN19 wrote: »THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS...0 -
Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.Until the social unrest begins, Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place, especially for young people. Young adulthood will disappear as the 20 somethings stay in college getting pointless degrees, live with their parents on social welfare, or engage in free labour to get experience for jobs that don’t exist. Nonetheless, the anger and technical competence of group is the last resource left to prevent the debt enslavement of this society.0 -
JENNYWREN19 wrote: »My sentiments exactly. I moved countries once for economic reasons, and I'll be damned if I'm wandering off to another country to start again, even though I've been unemployed for six months now. we can't just pack up and move every time our inept government lands us with their problems. I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave. Well, we can't all desert the sinking ship so what are we going to do? I know if I'm hit with water charges etc I'll expect a reliable water supply that doesn't pack up at the first sign of frost, otherwise they can go sing. Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job. THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND
Protesting against the government isn't going to result in a nice paycheque at the end of this month. Moving abroad is.
That was the end of the argument as far as I was concerned.0 -
What might such a plan look like?
I've made this point before on the forum, it isn't actually that complicated I think.
When I was on the dole last year, one thing that amazed me every month was the experience of "signing on"... A queue containing hundreds and hundreds of people, in a building that looked as if it was designed to utterly depress you, served by a building full of people who had nothing but unbridled contempt for you, as everyone kept their heads down looking at the ground for fear they might be recognised or recognise a neighbour and have to deal with the ackwardness of all of that...
Think about this for a minute... The place to start fixing the problem of massive unemployment is down at the dole office once a month. I know for sure that most of the people who are in that queue (I've been that person and I've mates who are still in the queue), do not want to be there.
Three things need to happen for us to start dealing with unemployment I think:
(1) The dole queue needs to be spliut down into three queues once a month:
QUEUE: A... You are willing to take work immediately. Instead of signing on, you go down to a new private sector agency appointed by the government, like a recruitment agency type body, and they will get you a job, consumerate with your skills and experience. You will be required to file an online CV with this body and work closely with a jobs faciliator who will "manage" you off the dole and into a job.
QUEUE: B... People who want to start a business. They also deal with this new agency but another part of it, that specialises in getting micro businesses off the ground. This will foster new job creation, provide access to seed capital by way of small loans, provide statr up incubator/office/small industrial space, again the key to getting it working is to keep the public sector, with their beards and their unions and their endless obstruction and blocking practices, completely out of the loop at all times.
QUEUE: C... You don't want to work or start up a business. I'm convinced that this group is the smallest, I don't know what to do with the folks in this cohort but I do feel that if a plan like this was put in place where everyone had to have some kind of a plan to get themselves off the dole, whether it be a PAYE job or self employment, we would be at least off to a very good start.
I'm not PS bashing here but after 2 years on the dole, I can say one thing for a certainty, for any progress to be possible on working with those on the dole with a view to getting folks back to work, the people working down behind hatch 45 need to be kept completely out of the loop, they are a large part of the problem in my view...0 -
I think people are busy either working or looking for work. Demonstrating isn’t something that’s likely to enhance the average CV.
The recently-elected government are not doing their job?
No, the government are our representatives.
First of all, there's very little work to be had
Secondly, the recently elected government are still finding their feet. they didn't inherit the best situation when they came to power. But to talk of cutting social welfare payments and introducing universal charges is not the best call while inept bankers collect massive pensions.
the government are there to serve us, not their own private interests. Politicians often have short memories regarding this fact. any politician supporting the above mentioned charges or work placement programmes is definitely not my representative.
My central point is that while a pretty large number of people are making the choice to go abroad, eventually this option will close down and the rest of us will be left here, having to sort out some way through for ourselves and our families0 -
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One thing that can be said for travel is it shows you different ways of doing things and gives you a sense of how it can be better. It's a big world and opportunity knocks when you travel to meet it. I made the move before the sh*t hit the fan, and I can only say that I am all the better for having done so. Had I stayed, I'm not sure what I would be contributing other then taxes(were I lucky) and moans. At least now I am in a place where when I do move back, I'll be bringing more to contribute then I could have had I stayed.
Go forth and prosper OP.....0 -
JENNYWREN19 wrote: »
My central point is that while a pretty large number of people are making the choice to go abroad, eventually this option will close down and the rest of us will be left here, having to sort out some way through for ourselves and our families
That is a good point. I am in London now working in finance. There are not that many jobs (though obviously many more than in Ireland), and an increasing number of Irish people after them. There is an Irish network in London that is very good at helping people coming from Dublin to get jobs - making introductions and so forth. But the numbers trying to tap that network is increasing, and it is getting more and more difficult to help them out. I would not be surprised if the same dynamic is at work in other sectors and in other countries. The message is that if you think you will end up leaving Ireland for a while, you have got to go now.0 -
Another great thing about moving away is that you see how things are done in other countries.Sometimes badly,like Ireland but mostly,much better like UK, most of mainland Europe,NZ,Australia and my favourite ,Canada.
The bizarre thing is even though I'm Irish, over the years I have been better treated by employers in England than in Ireland and honestly at work,socialising etc,English people have by far, been more friendly to me and my Irish friends than anywhere in Ireland.Very strange at first but something I'm used to now.
The Government are 50% to blame for the problems in Ireland and the public are 50% to blame also.Time and time again Joe Public votes in either FF or FG and then when banks and big business are looked after the Irish voters do,,,,,,eh,,,,,,,NOTHING!!!
Thats why Irish polititians do whatever they like,they know that the gullible,submissive Irish voter will lay back and take it.
Go to France or Germany and their public are baffled as to why the Irish don't protest.
Europe's polititians just LOVE the Irish mentality.0 -
tweedledee wrote: »Another great thing about moving away is that you see how things are done in other countries.Sometimes badly,like Ireland but mostly,much better like UK, most of mainland Europe,NZ,Australia and my favourite ,Canada.
The bizarre thing is even though I'm Irish, over the years I have been better treated by employers in England than in Ireland and honestly at work,socialising etc,English people have by far, been more friendly to me and my Irish friends than anywhere in Ireland.Very strange at first but something I'm used to now.
The Government are 50% to blame for the problems in Ireland and the public are 50% to blame also.Time and time again Joe Public votes in either FF or FG and then when banks and big business are looked after the Irish voters do,,,,,,eh,,,,,,,NOTHING!!!
Thats why Irish polititians do whatever they like,they know that the gullible,submissive Irish voter will lay back and take it.
Go to France or Germany and their public are baffled as to why the Irish don't protest.
Europe's polititians just LOVE the Irish mentality.
that was my point exactly. I'm baffled as to why the Irish don't protest. I've been trawling the net trying to find some national pressure group I can join regarding the latest cuts/proposed charges and I've found .......nothing???
Can anybody help me on this one?0 -
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JENNYWREN19 wrote: »that was my point exactly. I'm baffled as to why the Irish don't protest. I've been trawling the net trying to find some national pressure group I can join regarding the latest cuts/proposed charges and I've found .......nothing???
Can anybody help me on this one?
Protest about what though??? The problems that this country has are too big to be solved by protests, it's gone way way beyond the point where protests will do anything for this country.
There is no getting away from the reality, and the reality is that this place has been completely and utterly run into the ground over the last 15 years. Money was p*ssed all over the place for years without any notion of seeking value for what was spent, we failed to adopt or support viable and sustainable industries, instead we went with the stroke and the quick buck on property.
There is no avoiding the reality that everything in this country is completely and utterly out of kilter and serious adjustments have to be made...0 -
Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.0 -
tweedledee wrote: »Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.
Don't agree with a word of this, this government at at the start of a 5 year term, they couldn't give a fiddlers what you protest about, they have a police force to deal with any protests that get out of hand, and most of the people in the country at this stage can't stand unions or the hierarchy that lead the unions, all members of whom are completely insulated from the savage austerity that others are beinge exposed to.
Do you think any right minded sane person on the dole is going to stand on O' Connell Street and take a lecture in austerity from David Begg or Jack O' Connor on their 100K plus expenses salaries!?!
Ryaner don't hate unions, they just don't tolerate any external entity telling them how to run their business operations. There's nothing personal to it, they just know that they cannot run an airline while under a constant threat to shut down the business, look at the state of Aer Lingus, if you were flying into or out of this country this week, what carrier do you think you'd be going with??? The one that will get you from A to B or the one that will be on strike for better terms & conditions in the middle of the worst Irish recession ever, while you're stranded in another country somewhere?!?0 -
tweedledee wrote: »Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.
Exactly. We won't get anywhere with that 'ah sure, what can ye do?' attitude. If the electorate don't make some kind of protest then we are accepting unacceptable policies through sheer apathy. I'm not going to give (yet another) long speech about the poll tax riots in England, suffice to say they achieved the desired result and the tax was dropped0 -
JENNYWREN19 wrote: »Exactly. We won't get anywhere with that 'ah sure, what can ye do?' attitude. If the electorate don't make some kind of protest then we are accepting unacceptable policies through sheer apathy. I'm not going to give (yet another) long speech about the poll tax riots in England, suffice to say they achieved the desired result and the tax was dropped
Sorry, it's everyone for themselves now, you didn't see the people on the Titanic organising a protest when the sea water was up on the deck and swashing around their ankles.
I've spent the last 12 odd months in this country trying to start up a small business and trying to do the whole, "yes we can" thing, and I'm under no illusions whatsoever that if you are trying to improve your situation in this country whether you are unemployed or whatever, (and that's what my situation was until very recently), then you are on your own.
Once you accept that you are on your own and that you have to fight your way out of your situation, then you can move forward. If you start thinking that you can change this place, you will end up a broken person I think, this place is hoplessly backward and corrupt, and my advice to you is don't waste your time trying to fix this place, because you will most likely end up jumping into the river...0 -
I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.0 -
tweedledee wrote: »I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.
They can riot all they want in Greece, at the end of the day though they are spending way way more than they are taking in through taxes so cuts have to be made!
Loads of people in this country have taken the ultimate pay cut, myself being one of them, there is no point in me protesting, there is nothing to be gained by me protesting, I'd rather put my energy into doing something that will resolve my problems and start up a businesss.
I will never stand on a street with a union in this country, I've nothing in common with those that might protest in this country. What would I, or any unemployed person have in common with an Irish PS worker who has notions of entitlement in their head now because they had 10-15 years of gravy train social partnership talks and rewards, 40-50K salaries, lovely cosy pensions, no accountability for performance in the workplace, automatic collective salary increases year after year for nothing in return???
Do you think we can keep on running a country like this and that everything will be hunky dory?!?0 -
tweedledee wrote: »I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.
The EU is not treating them much better than us, Greece may yet be let go under.
Let us be clear here, the Greek, and Irish, the Portuguese, and to a lesser extent the Spanish people have a nuclear bomb strapped to them. The Greeks are looking like they might just be ill informed/ self absorbed/ insane enough to explode the thing, while the Irish are sensibly trying to work within the program to give the bomb disposal experts time to diffuse it.
It might just be possible to make a controlled explosion of Greece if the Greek people refuse to let the bomb disposal guys do their jobs, we don't know and I would rather not find out.
But you are suggesting we model ourselves on the Greeks and destroy ourselves and everything around us, because that would make us feel better, while we reverted to eating boiled potatoes and salt in our hovels, and hoped that the blight didn't strike, I have to disagree with you.0 -
Op, I should have added to my early post that I have travelled quite a lot and have worked abroad (albeit briefly). I am wholeheartedly in support of travelling, especially when you're from an island like we are, and I (and the OH) would love to live abroad for a couple of years.
We'd just like to know that we could come back after a year or two. And the way things are right now it doesn't look that way. Hence the 2 sides that I see to this decision.0 -
So pretty much everyone will be in this queue, right?HellFireClub wrote: »QUEUE: A... You are willing to take work immediately.
But the country is already overrun with recruitment agencies? Why do we need one with a special arrangement with the Department of Social & Family Affairs?HellFireClub wrote: »Instead of signing on, you go down to a new private sector agency appointed by the government, like a recruitment agency type body, and they will get you a job, consumerate with your skills and experience.
Were do the small loans come from?HellFireClub wrote: »QUEUE: B... People who want to start a business. They also deal with this new agency but another part of it, that specialises in getting micro businesses off the ground. This will foster new job creation, provide access to seed capital by way of small loans...
Who do you expect to see standing in this queue?HellFireClub wrote: »QUEUE: C... You don't want to work or start up a business.
FYP.HellFireClub wrote: »Ryaner don't hate unions, they just don't tolerate any external entity telling them how to run their business operations. There's nothing personal to it, they just know that they cannot run an airline while under a constant threat to shut down the business, look at the state of Aer Lingus, if you were flying into or out of this country this week, what carrier do you think you'd be going with??? The one that will get you from A to B (via C) or the one that will be on strike for better terms & conditions in the middle of the worst Irish recession ever, while you're stranded in another country somewhere?!?0 -
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The cutting of the social welfare bill and broadening of the tax base have to happen, bankers or no bankers.JENNYWREN19 wrote: »Secondly, the recently elected government are still finding their feet. they didn't inherit the best situation when they came to power. But to talk of cutting social welfare payments and introducing universal charges is not the best call while inept bankers collect massive pensions.
Protest what exactly? The outcome of a democratic election?JENNYWREN19 wrote: »that was my point exactly. I'm baffled as to why the Irish don't protest.0 -
I’m curious – what things are done so much better here in the UK in comparison to Ireland?tweedledee wrote: »Another great thing about moving away is that you see how things are done in other countries.Sometimes badly,like Ireland but mostly,much better like UK...
No, protesting scares the hell out of potential investors.tweedledee wrote: »Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.0 -
The cutting of the social welfare bill and broadening of the tax base have to happen, bankers or no bankers.
This is true. But it's very hard to take while looking at the obscene salaries some people running the country get paid, and the fact that not one person (still) that was involved in running the banks into the ground has made it inside a courtroom. In fact, most haven't even been interviewed by gardai yet. Pitiful attempts have been made to curb public spending, cutting in places like capital investment, instead of a bit of straight thinking (or thinking outside the box) and biting the bullet (ie just making bigger cuts straight off, instead of spreading small attempts over a number of years). It's a deeply, deeply frustrating experience.Protest what exactly? The outcome of a democratic election?
If anything, protest against the above.The outcome of the election was to be expected (and somewhat welcomed). But the ongoing "tax everyone to kingdom come expect the chosen few and those who have dangerous unions fighting for them" thing is just intolerable......0 -
JENNYWREN19 wrote: »Exactly. We won't get anywhere with that 'ah sure, what can ye do?' attitude. If the electorate don't make some kind of protest then we are accepting unacceptable policies through sheer apathy. I'm not going to give (yet another) long speech about the poll tax riots in England, suffice to say they achieved the desired result and the tax was dropped
yea, its now called council tax. £2Gs a year for my flat.0 -
scotty_irish wrote: »yea, its now called council tax. £2Gs a year for my flat.
At least its worst excesses were curbed.0 -
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Politicians and senior civil servants will always be paid considerably more than the average wage and there will always be those who will complain about it. That’s not to say that such salaries could not be reduced to some extent, but in my opinion, salaries in Ireland in general are very high.This is true. But it's very hard to take while looking at the obscene salaries some people running the country get paid...
Criminal investigations take time. Assuming something illegal has taken place (which may not necessarily be the case), it’s going to be some time yet before the suspects are charged, never mind convicted. People need to be patient let the Gardaí do their job....and the fact that not one person (still) that was involved in running the banks into the ground has made it inside a courtroom. In fact, most haven't even been interviewed by gardai yet.
But this is the problem – half the country is for cutting public sector spending, but the other half is staunchly against. Something’s gotta give.If anything, protest against the above.The outcome of the election was to be expected (and somewhat welcomed). But the ongoing "tax everyone to kingdom come expect the chosen few and those who have dangerous unions fighting for them" thing is just intolerable......0 -
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The cutting of the social welfare bill and broadening of the tax base have to happen, bankers or no bankers.
Protest what exactly? The outcome of a democratic election?
no, not the outcome of a democratic election. I voted for the current government because we had an excellent FG TD in our area, now unfortunately retired. My point is, if we have to bite the bullet and accept wages cuts reduced pensions and new taxes the policy should apply across the board, not to the poorest members of society. I know some politicians have taken wage cuts, which is a step in the right direction but why have the bankers been allowed to walk off with millions in payoffs while the rest of the country struggles? I thought we were all in this together? (well, not really but I live in hope) One way of cutting the social welfare bill would be to create a few jobs, not by cutting existing payments. Private companies are getting away with murder, implementing work placement schemes - that used to be known as gainful employment when it was paid for.
Tell you the truth, at the moment I'd be thrilled to be in a job that paid enough to attract top band taxation and I'd be happy to cough up, as long as the bankers were tightening their belts, too0 -
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Any potential investors.
Dream on. We're on our own and we can only try to solve our problems as a country. I don't see any American companies rushing to set up here, for instance. Nice to see Mr Obama having a good time here recently but I doubt his visit will lead to any long term benefits for the country0
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