Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

pog it

D1stant wrote: »

Stay or Go? The choice is really an illusion. In the 50s and 80s people just went, and pretty soon the SW will be cut so much that the 'choice' will dissapear

If 400k people go it will go a long way to solving the budgetary problem

Thats the only way we ever solved one before. So yeah Go.

I have a job. That isn't my problem.

D1stant

steve9859 wrote: »

I advocate going, as it is every man/woman for themselves now.

But the benefit to Ireland of people leaving is not what it was in the 50s and 80s. Back then, people leaving was a handy release valve. But now, if too many people leave you have taxpayers and potential taxpayers (in the form of graduates) no longer contributing toward growing the economy and paying taxes to pay the interest payments on Ireland's debt. Ireland will have the same interest burden but fewer people to service it. So the release valve on the public finances of emigration doesn't really work any more

Sorry. Should have clarified. The 400k I was reffering to are on the dole, and therefore a 'drain' on finances

FreudianSlippers

steve9859 wrote: »

I advocate going, as it is every man/woman for themselves now.

But the benefit to Ireland of people leaving is not what it was in the 50s and 80s. Back then, people leaving was a handy release valve. But now, if too many people leave you have taxpayers and potential taxpayers (in the form of graduates) no longer contributing toward growing the economy and paying taxes to pay the interest payments on Ireland's debt. Ireland will have the same interest burden but fewer people to service it. So the release valve on the public finances of emigration doesn't really work any more

The problem is that it's taxpayers that are leaving at the moment... people on the dole are staying put

RichardAnd

steve9859 wrote: »

I advocate going, as it is every man/woman for themselves now.

But the benefit to Ireland of people leaving is not what it was in the 50s and 80s. Back then, people leaving was a handy release valve. But now, if too many people leave you have taxpayers and potential taxpayers (in the form of graduates) no longer contributing toward growing the economy and paying taxes to pay the interest payments on Ireland's debt. Ireland will have the same interest burden but fewer people to service it. So the release valve on the public finances of emigration doesn't really work any more

PErsonally, I would advice any person able to leave to get the hell out of here if they have no hopes of finding a job in the near future. A close friend of mine has been out of work since graduating in 2007, with the breif excpetion of a short stint in shop. He's now 25, with a useless degree from a second rate college (one of the ITs) and no real work experience all because the dole here allowed him to live comfortably enough to remove the push to better his life. I don't like to put the guy down but with that massive CV gap, he's not likely to find a job at all.

For other young people who are on the dole and starting to think it's not all that bad, do not get complacent. Get out of here before you get sucked into the same dreadful cycle that over took my friend.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

By "upskill" do you mean re-train, or take a course and start a business kind of thing?

Pretty much, yes. As the figures from the CSO show, there are a lot of people out there with relatively few qualifications. Now, that doesn’t obviously mean that they’re unemployable – they may well have valuable experience. However, I’m sure there are plenty of people who wish to learn something new and I’d like to see efforts focussed on encouraging and/or assisting people in attaining such goals. This of course could also include information/assistance in becoming self-employed. It all points to a major reform of FÁS really (or even a reappraisal of whether or not FÁs is still needed), although it should be pointed out that programmes have been rolled out in some third-level institutions specifically targeting the unemployed.

dan_d wrote: »

FAS should be offering language classes to those unemployed.

Yeah, that could be a good idea, but it might be better to leave the teaching of languages to specialised language schools.

dan_d wrote: »

The "tricky" part is the problem that I was referring to earlier about the number of educated people that are unemployed. A lot of those unemployed have a degree at the very least - many have a Masters or a PhD.

To be honest, I find that hard to believe (and the CSO figures don’t seem to support such a claim). The people who are really struggling to find employment are those who have no third-level qualifications. However, it should be pointed out that, obviously, all degrees are not equal - I’m sure there are graduates out there who are perhaps now finding that, with hindsight, their course was not the wisest choice.

dan_d wrote: »

...how are you supposed to afford "upskilling" when you've no income and the logical next step is a 10k euro Masters programme??

There are always alternatives – if the masters is not an option at the moment, there must be something you could do to enhance your CV?

dan_d wrote: »

It shows that unemployment among grads with a third level degree is about 5%. One wonders, however, does that data come from 2008/2009 graduates (it would have to really, since the data is may 2010 and there aren't any grads out yet in May 2010). I'd also imagine that the data is gathered based on the grads remaining in this country, ie if you have a class of 100, and 50 have emigrated, those stats are based on the remaining 50.

Third-level graduates are always more likely to migrate – immigrants often have more qualifications than the native population. But the fact remains that, based on the available evidence, third-level graduates are far less likely to be unemployed than the rest of the population.

dan_d wrote: »

Taking the tables on pgs 2 -5 in that report, there are numbers there that should have rung major alarm bells over 2 years ago. There was a higher percentage of people with only higher secondary education than there were with degrees, or even post LC qualifications, yet we had a booming economy (table, pg 5).

I draw your attention to Figure 2 - young people in Ireland are among the most educated in Europe.

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

During the Celtic Pyramid, unemployment was running at 4.5%
It was composed almost entirely of the dregs of society and the long term unemployed who had no interest in working.

Again, the figures don’t support this. The majority of unemployed people during the boom (typically of the order of 70%) were short-term unemployed, presumably those “between” jobs. Have a look at Table 17 here for example.

RichardAnd wrote: »

He's now 25, with a useless degree from a second rate college (one of the Its)...

Why are you dismissing IT’s as “second-rate” colleges? There are plenty of courses offered by IT’s that are of far more practical value than certain courses offered by universities.

FreudianSlippers

djpbarry wrote: »

There are always alternatives – if the masters is not an option at the moment, there must be something you could do to enhance your CV?

Not to ignore the whole post which I completely agree with, but just to touch on this part. There are certainly alternatives.
Even small things like computer training or volunteer work are massive on a CV and definitely mean the difference between getting a job and not getting one.

Civil Defence is a great example of this.

You have 2 CVs, out of work for the same time. One person sat around on the dole looking for work and the other volunteered and was part of Civil Defence, I know which one I'd choose.

dan_d

Once again - I am not disagreeing that it's easier to find a job with qualifications. It is. What I am saying is that of the 450k that are on the dole, there are more educated people there than there have been during previous recessions. And unfortunately, the workings of the SW are being shown up for what they are, to people who are accustomed to working in a completely different system.Hence the large amount of irritation...and well, rage...that you often find from those who have to deal with SW.

FAS do outsource many of their courses...for example a Project Management course I undertook with the before Xmas was accessed through the FAS web training portal, but was provided by a private training company based in the midlands somewhere. It was free once you had signed on with FAS and they had registered you on it - but you paid for it if you accessed directly through the company in question (the assumption being that you were working in that case and could afford it). So it would be quite conceivable that they could offer language classes through specialist training providers.

I have just finished a private course and passed it, through one of the colleges, to enhance my CV. I am taking a further exam in a couple of months, through a professional body that will give me another title (at a cost of 350eur) I am now considering taking language classes for 8 weeks through one of the language schools in town, again towards enhancing my CV. But they are extremely expensive and I don't know if I'll be able to pay for them, to be honest. The problem is that the first course I did cost 1500eur, and each language course would be about 330eur for the 8 weeks. I have very limited funds available, and a mortgage and bills to pay. So while there may always be options, they become more and more limited the longer you're on dole and the less money there is (well, if you're someone who was previously a taxpayer, they become more and more limited...)

I'm not knocking your points, they are valid. It's just that there are many, many obstacles out there when you're in this position and it can be very,very hard to pull yourself back out of it.

nadir

The best form of protest is to leave.
Especially if you are skilled, your taxes will be used to pay for the past mistakes and corruption, you are better off getting a decent tax deal elsewhere, and not contributing to Ireland at all.
If you haven't bought property, you have nothing holding you down, and if you stay you will be paying for other peoples/developers property.
If you have bought property and are seriously in debt, it's probably better to up and leave anyway as you will be stuck in negative equity.
And if you do want to come back you can save abroad, and come back with some cash in ten years or so.
I left last year, and I have no intention of coming back.

RichardAnd

nadir wrote: »

The best form of protest is to leave.
Especially if you are skilled, your taxes will be used to pay for the past mistakes and corruption, you are better off getting a decent tax deal elsewhere, and not contributing to Ireland at all.
If you haven't bought property, you have nothing holding you down, and if you stay you will be paying for other peoples/developers property.
If you have bought property and are seriously in debt, it's probably better to up and leave anyway as you will be stuck in negative equity.
And if you do want to come back you can save abroad, and come back with some cash in ten years or so.
I left last year, and I have no intention of coming back.

I'm pretty sure someone can't just up sticks and leave a massive loan behind without it ever catching up to them. Well, I'm sure it's possible but it's hardly legal.

keithclancy

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm pretty sure someone can't just up sticks and leave a massive loan behind without it ever catching up to them. Well, I'm sure it's possible but it's hardly legal.

Hey, it was pretty common on the continent in the 80's.

English people stuck their keys in the letterbox and went back to the UK.

djpbarry

nadir wrote: »

The best form of protest is to leave.
Especially if you are skilled, your taxes will be used to pay for the past mistakes and corruption, you are better off getting a decent tax deal elsewhere, and not contributing to Ireland at all.

Bit of a challenge to find a new home outside of the member states of the EU and IMF.

RichardAnd

keithclancy wrote: »

Hey, it was pretty common on the continent in the 80's.

English people stuck their keys in the letterbox and went back to the UK.

Maybe but remember, the powers that be in the 80s didn't have databases full of personal info available. IT was easier for debt and fines to go away if the only record of them was a piece of paper in a file that could be lost. I'm also fairly sure that imigration officers in the country to which the debt riddled person might wish to flee would be keen to do a background check before letting them in.

Regardless, runnign from a huge loan would be a dreadfully reckless thing to do. A person might think they were free from the consequences of their own actions but it would always be there to haunt them in some way. I wouldn't sleep too easily in my new home if I had ran away from a 400k debt back home.

dan_d

You can't.

Well, you can if you're happy to leave the country and never come back. Not even for a visit.

Otherwise it's always there, waiting for you......

Brussels Sprout

I've read this entire thread over the past 2 days and the one constant in it seems to be djpbarry, with some kind of sadistic joy, shooting down any proposals that seek to alter the status quo in any way.

I certainly wouldn't want to be trapped in an emergency situation with you. I can just imagine the conversation:

Brussels Sprout: "Ok I have an idea for how to get out of here..."

djpbarry: "That's a ridiculous idea-it'll never work. Sure we're going to die in the long run anyway. May as well face up to reality and accept our fate"

djpbarry

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I've read this entire thread over the past 2 days and the one constant in it seems to be djpbarry, with some kind of sadistic joy, shooting down any proposals that seek to alter the status quo in any way.

Your definitions of “constant” and “status quo” are obviously radically different to mine. I have repeatedly expressed my wish that an emphasis be placed on assisting unemployed people in learning new skills that would be of value both to them and the economy – I’m not sure how that could be construed as preserving the status quo. I “shot down” one of HellFireClub’s suggestions, in particular, as I would be wary of a government-administered funding mechanism for start-ups. A better alternative, in my opinion, would be to focus on getting banks lending again and leave the issuing of business loans to the professionals (well, relatively speaking).

keithclancy

Hellfireclub seems to be very bitter because the Government are making it difficult for entrepeneurs/self employed to operate.

Its a shame really because its all based around votes and most of the votes are from PAYE workers.

Yet more and more PAYE workers will be out of a job if people won't setup business, we shouldn't just be relying on foreign US companies to generate jobs, get some local stuff going as well.

Cookie_Monster

I'm a young professional (26), as is my partner.
we're both in well paid secure* jobs, no mortgage, no debt, no kids.

Ideally suited to ride out the storm here you say, and yes that's probably true. But we're emigrating in the next couple of months, one job already secure visa process coming along quickly.

Why?
partly to get some of the travel we missed while younger, being too busy with college and working part time to fund
partly because there a few opportunities lefts here to move on to, 9 months of her searching the UK and IRl for a job proves this, 2 weeks searching in NZ got her a job no problem, with many to choose from
partly because we don't fancy paying through the roof for everything for the next 10 years to fund bankers
and partly because this country will implode some point soon and I want to get myself and my hard earned money out before it does.



*secure as can be in the private sector at the moment

keithclancy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm a young professional (26), as is my partner.
we're both in well paid secure* jobs, no mortgage, no debt, no kids.

Ideally suited to ride out the storm here you say, and yes that's probably true. But we're emigrating in the next couple of months, one job already secure visa process coming along quickly.

Why?
partly to get some of the travel we missed while younger, being too busy with college and working part time to fund
partly because there a few opportunities lefts here to move on to, 9 months of her searching the UK and IRl for a job proves this, 2 weeks searching in NZ got her a job no problem, with many to choose from
partly because we don't fancy paying through the roof for everything for the next 10 years to fund bankers
and partly because this country will implode some point soon and I want to get myself and my hard earned money out before it does.



*secure as can be in the private sector at the moment

We were in the same boat.

I guarantee you'll find stuff to complain about there, for the first few years your blissfully unaware of anything

Cookie_Monster

keithclancy wrote: »

I guarantee you'll find stuff to complain about there, for the first few years your blissfully unaware of anything

me, never :pac:

I'm sure I will no matter where I go but it's still a risk worth taking IMO, especially given the risks of staying

pog it

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm a young professional (26), as is my partner.
we're both in well paid secure* jobs, no mortgage, no debt, no kids.

Ideally suited to ride out the storm here you say, and yes that's probably true. But we're emigrating in the next couple of months, one job already secure visa process coming along quickly.

Why?
partly to get some of the travel we missed while younger, being too busy with college and working part time to fund
partly because there a few opportunities lefts here to move on to, 9 months of her searching the UK and IRl for a job proves this, 2 weeks searching in NZ got her a job no problem, with many to choose from
partly because we don't fancy paying through the roof for everything for the next 10 years to fund bankers
and partly because this country will implode some point soon and I want to get myself and my hard earned money out before it does.



*secure as can be in the private sector at the moment

Thanks for your post Cookiemonster. Yep I've decided to leave, going to give it an initial 9 months.
I've travelled a good bit already but that was for study/fun etc. At the moment I just can't see myself wanting to settle down in this country and pay more and more tax just to pay off bank debts, and cushion the likes of Tubridy and the government. Makes me sick.
Nor do I see this as a good country to raise children in anymore and at some point in the next few years I'm going to have to decide whether or not I should do that.
Nor can I stomach the apathy levels of the Irish which have shocked me the most. The level of gombeenism here is catastrophic and it will make me mentally sick if I stay around. Definitely need a 9 month stint away, let's see how it goes then.

atila

Very Interesting the amount of people in a relatively secure financial situation choosing to leave the country.

I guess it makes sense that the Celtic Tiger cubs would be leading the charge to leave - what they place value in can be counted in monetary terms only.

pog it

atila wrote: »

I guess it makes sense that the Celtic Tiger cubs would be leading the charge to leave - what they place value in can be counted in monetary terms only.

If you read my original and first post on this thread you will see that money does not drive me -hence my moral dilemma - stay here and do something, or leave. But nothing i can do right now will change anything because the vast majority of Irish people won't think critically, won't act.

So you will see I'm left with no choice and it's not for financial reasons whatsoever. Money doesn't and never has driven me. Before my recent career change I was an archaeologist.. so that should tell you something.

Cookie_Monster

atila wrote: »

I guess it makes sense that the Celtic Tiger cubs would be leading the charge to leave - what they place value in can be counted in monetary terms only.

that's a bit of misnomer. If I was to judge it on purely financial terms I'd probably earn more by staying and incur less costs.

HellFireClub

keithclancy wrote: »

Hellfireclub seems to be very bitter because the Government are making it difficult for entrepeneurs/self employed to operate.

Its a shame really because its all based around votes and most of the votes are from PAYE workers.

Yet more and more PAYE workers will be out of a job if people won't setup business, we shouldn't just be relying on foreign US companies to generate jobs, get some local stuff going as well.

I'm not bitter at all, I just take a very serious exception to being constantly lied to.

I just can't understand what is to be achieved by a government continually lying to people, by wasting people's time with fase hopes and expectations, and by that I mean egging people on to start up businesses and coming out with all this Obama style rhetoric, and saying that supports are there in place waiting for you, while at the same time actively going about cutting the supports that these folks are telling people that are there.

Entrepreneurs by their nature, they just want to get on with it, they are action people, and are inherently not the type of people who want to be dragged through endless meetings, and getting rings ran around them, with endless paper trails and messing and overly politcal decision making processes.

The fact that the same folks who are misleading people, are at the same time using taxpayers money, (and even when I was on the dole I was still a taxpayer), to bailout the mistakes that are associated with a handful of corrupt individuals, that were made back in 2005-2008, and are the same folks who claim more for a Friday night dinner and golf expenses on the Saturday morning, than I needed to get off the dole FOR LIFE, this is something I personally find extremely difficult to take on the nose as a citizen and as a taxpayer.

atila

pog it wrote: »

If you read my original and first post on this thread you will see that money does not drive me -hence my moral dilemma - stay here and do something, or leave. But nothing i can do right now will change anything because the vast majority of Irish people won't think critically, won't act.

So you will see I'm left with no choice and it's not for financial reasons whatsoever. Money doesn't and never has driven me. Before my recent career change I was an archaeologist.. so that should tell you something.

I avoid getting personal in comments I make, so this is just a generalised observation that there is no country on earth that doesnt share similar laundry lists of things their citizens would like to change and are frustrated by the incremental and slow paced reforms. You seem an idealist which is very admiral but your decision to move country is best made with your pragmatic head on.

djpbarry

pog it wrote: »

At the moment I just can't see myself wanting to settle down in this country and pay more and more tax just to pay off bank debts, and cushion the likes of Tubridy and the government.

First of all, taxation levels in Ireland are still relatively low, particularly for those who don’t own houses and/or cars – you’ll pay far more here in the UK for example. Secondly, Ireland’s deficit and the need for a bailout were largely due to the massive welfare and public sector wage bills (and tax take shortfall), not bank recapitalisation. Finally, it’s quite likely that no matter where you end up, there will be some aspect of government spending that you will find objectionable, such as the financing of military campaigns, for example.

pog it wrote: »

Definitely need a 9 month stint away, let's see how it goes then.

Sounds like you could do with it alright – you might come to realise that relatively speaking, Ireland’s not a bad place to live at all.

pog it wrote: »

...the vast majority of Irish people won't think critically, won't act.

Won’t act in what manner?

pog it

atila wrote: »

I avoid getting personal in comments I make, so this is just a generalised observation that there is no country on earth that doesnt share similar laundry lists of things their citizens would like to change and are frustrated by the incremental and slow paced reforms. You seem an idealist which is very admiral but your decision to move country is best made with your pragmatic head on.

Sorry but there are countries where the people have shown a bit of respect for themselves and their culture, etc. We know about them as a consequence - Iceland and Greece for example. It's about standing up for ourselves. It's nothing to do with idealism whatsoever, sure we are barely scratching the surface of fairness here so how the hell could you start thinking in idealist terms? The reality here is that Irish people are happy to suck it up like good little boys and girls. I rebelled (and worked) during all the boom years and sounded alarms about the rate of development and Bertie Ahern but the country in general is deaf (nicest way of putting it).

My move is pragmatic in so far as my family and friends will still be here when I get back and I will retain my sanity. Can't put a price on that either.

atila

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's a bit of misnomer. If I was to judge it on purely financial terms I'd probably earn more by staying and incur less costs.

I have no idea of your financial situation. This being the internet all comments are generalised. If your motivation is dissatisfaction with elements within the society then by leaving, your taking your vote off with you, basically a form of determinism.

pog it

djpbarry wrote: »

First of all, taxation levels in Ireland are still relatively low, particularly for those who don’t own houses and/or cars – you’ll pay far more here in the UK for example. Secondly, Ireland’s deficit and the need for a bailout were largely due to the massive welfare and public sector wage bills (and tax take shortfall), not bank recapitalisation.

Eh you seem to be missing the point that those who are working are mostly the same people running cars, paying the most taxes. And no the bailout is happening because of the banks, not because of PS and welfare bills. If it were only that, there would not have been a bailout.

Now, I can't stand any more ignorant comments so don't take it personally if I don't reply to any more from you.