Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

djpbarry

pog it wrote: »

Sorry but there are countries where the people have shown a bit of respect for themselves and their culture, etc. We know about them as a consequence - Iceland and Greece for example.

Greece is on the verge of default because the Greeks refuse to accept that cuts are necessary. Respect has nothing to do with it – more money is going out than is coming in. Ireland has accepted that this is a problem and is endeavouring to do something about it. Greece, on the other hand, refuses to accept reality and unless this stance is altered, default will follow and things will get a whole lot worse.

atila

pog it wrote: »

Sorry but there are countries where the people have shown a bit of respect for themselves and their culture, etc. We know about them as a consequence - Iceland and Greece for example. It's about standing up for ourselves. It's nothing to do with idealism whatsoever, sure we are barely scratching the surface of fairness here so how the hell could you start thinking in idealist terms? The reality here is that Irish people are happy to suck it up like good little boys and girls. I rebelled (and worked) during all the boom years and sounded alarms about the rate of development and Bertie Ahern but the country in general is deaf (nicest way of putting it).

My move is pragmatic in so far as my family and friends will still be here when I get back and I will retain my sanity. Can't put a price on that either.

Best of luck in your move. You sound like you need a break from current affairs. Don't we all.

pog it

atila wrote: »

Best of luck in your move. You sound like you need a break from current affairs. Don't we all.

No. I need a break from apathy and corruption. Make no mistake about that.

djpbarry

pog it wrote: »

Eh you seem to be missing the point that those who are working are mostly the same people running cars, paying the most taxes.

You seem to be missing the point that Ireland’s tax take is far too low to meet public spending and welfare commitments.

pog it wrote: »

And no the bailout is happening because of the banks...

Nope. The majority of the bailout fund (€50 billion) was earmarked for “budgetary financing needs”:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1128/economy.html

pog it

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point that Ireland’s tax take is far too low to meet public spending and welfare commitments.
Nope. The majority of the bailout fund (€50 billion) was earmarked for “budgetary financing needs”:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1128/economy.html

I'm training to be a financial analyst at the moment. I'm not missing any economic beats.

djpbarry

pog it wrote: »

No. I need a break from apathy and corruption.

So where is this mythical place where apathy and corruption do not exist?

atila

pog it wrote: »

No. I need a break from apathy and corruption. Make no mistake about that.

You've a long road to travel so. Godspeed

djpbarry

pog it wrote: »

I'm training to be a financial analyst at the moment.

Good for you.

pog it wrote: »

I'm not missing any economic beats.

Well, you’re assessment of the current economic situation in Ireland is wildly inaccurate.

Cookie_Monster

djpbarry wrote: »

So where is this mythical place where apathy and corruption do not exist?

that's clearly not what he meant.

There are plenty of countries in the world where there is less apathy and corruption to a greater or lesser degree
You could foist anything on the Irish at this stage due to the apathy and the EU / IMF know it.
Maybe corruption is not as prevelant as some may believe but low level corruption is a hallmark of Irish society IMO, the "cute hoor", getting one over on the Brits/cops/revenue/etc mentality

pog it

atila wrote: »

You've a long road to travel so. Godspeed

The levels of apathy, ignorance and corruption here are far more cutting to me because I'm Irish and have a sense of pride about this country. Wherever I go it will be a release from that regardless of the politics and people in that country.

atila

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's clearly not what he meant.

There are plenty of countries in the world where there is less apathy and corruption to a greater or lesser degree
You could foist anything on the Irish at this stage due to the apathy and the EU / IMF know it.
Maybe corruption is not as prevelant as some may believe but low level corruption is a hallmark of Irish society IMO, the "cute hoor", getting one over on the Brits/cops/revenue/etc mentality

And an extremley multifaceted and complex entangled economic situation with many many shades of grey to it - gets boiled down into an emotive and easy to repeat mantra that fudementally misrepresents the current dynamic.

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point that Ireland’s tax take is far too low to meet public spending and welfare commitments.

Eh, no. Ireland's "public" spending, and I use the term loosely, is too high for a sustainable tax take. And the government has no plans to cut that through to 2015. Which means we'll be paying one of the highest if not the highest levels of taxation in Europe if not the world in a couple of years. Welfare increases since 2007 only account for a third of the deficit.

Diminishing returns lads, learn it, live it, love it. If I wasn't stuck in the middle of it, it would be pretty funny to watch the government trying to pay for more people than actually work in the private sector, and we're not far off that now.

I wouldn't blame anyone for getting out, and I've gone on record many times here and elsewhere as an outspoken nationalist, but it is a source of great pain for me to be paying these ever spiralling taxes to support overpaid and inefficient services and politicians' hair dye bills, watching my country being strongarmed by enemies foreign and domestic into penury while a weak leadership vacillates between apologising for their failed election promises and giving the nod and wink to the union boys.

So yes, I wouldn't hold it against anyone who felt it was in their best interests to get out, although it's a great loss to the nation.

Zubeneschamali

Fer chrissake, would you stay or go, but close the damn door!

fat__tony

dan_d wrote: »

You can tell your partner I wholeheartedly agree! I signed off in Jan and honestly it was the best feeling ever. I wanted to sing and dance and scream with pure delight while shaking the dust of that SW office off my feet, as I walked out. It's a feeling I cannot wait to experience again.

Unfortunately, I was signing back on a month later. When I found out I was redundant again, I honestly cried for hours. And it wasn't just the fact that I'd have to go back job hunting again. It was the fact that I had to go back to that office, deal with those people, be in that soul-crushing, confidence destroying and completely uncaring system...the thought of it alone made me cry even more.

It wasn't a good time.

Anyway, we've totally dragged the thread off course here.

I did consider going into politics recently, actually around the time when the gender quota thing was being discussed. (I'm a woman). I'm still considering it....I just have to work up the guts to actually do it I suppose. I don't think people would want to hear what I have to say though...I don't beat around the bush....

Dan, I've heard you mention this briefly before but why in blazes did the company in question take you on in the first place if you were let go a month later?

Did they offer a permanent position in the contract?

Personally, if something like that happened to me, I'd be calling around with a shotgun the next day!

ahal

I've read through a lot of the posts in this thread. Like the OP, I am totally disillusioned with this place. After 90+ years we still haven't got our act together ... there's really only so long the Brits can be blamed! First off, who wants to go "back to where we were"? Hell, no thanks! The problem in this country for me is the lengths to which successive Governments will go to protect the superclasses. Rebuild the nation to what? - it goes around in a loop! I admire patriotism but in Ireland it seems all to often to be intertwined with pulling a 'stroke' at the top.

Regarding the FAS work for free thing, that only seems to be for certain classes of people. The Teachers have said "bog off" to that idea, and the nurses also. There seem to be a lot of people on the State's payroll who are all for pain - as long as it is somewhere else. Our public servants are getting paid 1/3 more than in the rest of Europe. No such situation like the Latvian teacher who took a 50% pay cut! This will eventually end up being done for us, but for me once again it's the 'sentiment' that stinks.

The Croke park agreement is a joke and needs to be scrapped. We're fast getting to a situation where the ordinary populace are being criminalized in a bid to rob the poor to pay the wealthy. By that I mean things like proposed levies, insane rates of road tax on pre-2008 cars ... for anyone on a modest or no wage life has become all but impossible.

I recently made a complaint on Welfare.ie "in confidence". I'd gotten a week's work and couldn't get an answer on their phone number at the local office. They passed my complaint to the local office, who started a witch-hunt against me in return. They haven't had a functioning phone system there for months! So much for improved efficiency! This kind of thing is the biggest obstacle to employment. They couldn't care less if I get a job, never get a job, or screw the system. All they care about is their inflated wage.

Leaving wage bunnies aside, the "wait and see" mentality that crept up since the Bank guarantee in 2008 has done long term damage on every level imho. A new culture of "I can't possibly comment on that" has crept into every facet of day to day life. Everything seems to be on 'hold'. It was a psychologically disaterous move for a country and one that will take a very long time to process out of.

Despite my disgust with all of the above I have found one positive, though probably more so if you're into I.T. Get a fast internet connection and get on a FAS online / blended course and get some valuable courses behind you with decent certification. It's one of the few perks left in the sphere of unemployment ... for now (http://www.ecollege.ie)

In conclusion, you can use the system or let it use you. I agree with those who say that worrying about the bigger picture is depressing ... it is. In the bigger picture I feel like a patriot who has had his patriotism used and abused in order for him to be rode in a non-kinky way, to be candid.

Oh, avoid the Six - One news at all costs too.

atila

pog it wrote: »

The levels of apathy, ignorance and corruption here are far more cutting to me because I'm Irish and have a sense of pride about this country. Wherever I go it will be a release from that regardless of the politics and people in that country.

Its an unusual logic! but everyone does need their space sometimes. The general chatter is enough to make anyone view a beach in Australia as utopia. The old year away has done many people a lot of good, did it myself and recomend it. I have to say I do have a little inward chuckle now and then when i hear that the year or two abroad has become described as emmigration!

djpbarry

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You could foist anything on the Irish at this stage due to the apathy and the EU / IMF know it.

And yet a reduction in interest charged on the bailout is a distinct possibility in the near future.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

...low level corruption is a hallmark of Irish society...

I’m not going to disagree with that.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh, no. Ireland's "public" spending, and I use the term loosely, is too high for a sustainable tax take.

Well, yes, that’s the other side of the same coin – I wasn’t trying to imply that taxation should be increased to meet current spending.

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, yes, that’s the other side of the same coin – I wasn’t trying to imply that taxation should be increased to meet current spending.

Unfortunately that's precisely what the government is planning to do.

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Unfortunately that's precisely what the government is planning to do.

Unfortunately, a large chunk of the general populace is opposed to anything that could be construed as a “cut”.

Amhran Nua

djpbarry wrote: »

Unfortunately, a large chunk of the general populace is opposed to anything that could be construed as a “cut”.

Nope, only a well organised small chunk in important services. These types would think nothing of threatening to let people die on trolleys if they can't keep their bubble loot.

Cookie_Monster

djpbarry wrote: »

And yet a reduction in interest charged on the bailout is a distinct possibility in the near future..

as is a second bailout

shadowcomplex

Im 33, single, no dependants and no mortage and im earning 45k a year in a permanent full time job that seems like its safe for the forseeable future, would I be better in the longterm emirgrating or should I stay ?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, only a well organised small chunk in important services. These types would think nothing of threatening to let people die on trolleys if they can't keep their bubble loot.

A lot of the people opposed to cuts would most definitely not approve of letting patients die.

Dannyboy83

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Im 33, single, no dependants and no mortage and im earning 45k a year in a permanent full time job that seems like its safe for the forseeable future, would I be better in the longterm emirgrating or should I stay ?

If you:
A) Put money away (in a foreign bank),
Don't get into debt (or pay it down asap if you have any)
and
C) are prepared to wait

- you could be nicely positioned to clean up after the **** has hit the fan.


If you had dollars in Post-Soviet Russia - you were King.
If you'll have cash in post-default Ireland - you will be King.

With the rate of emigration, with the inexorable increase of ECB rates, with the strangulation of the Irish economy by tax increases, most people who don't fit into your category are going to be looking for a liferaft to get the hell out of here.

Taxes will probably go up, but certain costs will collapse.
Think liquidation.

No credit from banks, people need to get the hell out = assets will be liquidated. Houses bought and sold for 25k cash, not a 185k mortgage. Cars bought for 1/5th of their pre-default value. etc.
Firesale of the century.

Post default - there will be no question about pressing the rest button - it will have already been pressed.
That could be better for you (assuming you don't need to use hospitals, unemployed siblings, pensioner parents), because of the distortion in the Irish economy.
While so many public sector workers have been so grossly overpaid for so long, it has hugely damaged your purchasing power.

Think of someone in Latvia in the private sector.
Perhaps they made 15,000 Lats per year, compared to a teacher making 25,000 Lats per year.
This person couldn't really compete.
Then public servants took a 50% pay cut.
Now that person's purchasing power has increased dramatically and that's in isolation of all the other converging events.

Asset values will collapse.
The amount of people able to take advantage will probably be very small.
Crime will skyrocket.
==

If you're in the public sector - then protect your cash in a foreign bank and get rid of debts immediately because you will be taking a Latvian style paycut.

If you're private and your company trades heavily in the domestic economy, don't go getting involved in any financial commitments, because as well as savage taxation, you will probably take a hefty paycut and probably lose your job. Get rid of debt and preserve money for emigrating if needs be.

If you're private and your company trades in the export economy, you could be sitting pretty

shadowcomplex

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you:
A) Put money away (in a foreign bank),
Don't get into debt (or pay it down asap if you have any)
and
C) are prepared to wait

- you could be nicely positioned to clean up after the **** has hit the fan.


If you had dollars in Post-Soviet Russia - you were King.
If you'll have cash in post-default Ireland - you will be King.

With the rate of emigration, with the inexorable increase of ECB rates, with the strangulation of the Irish economy by tax increases, most people who don't fit into your category are going to be looking for a liferaft to get the hell out of here.

Taxes will probably go up, but certain costs will collapse.
Think liquidation.

No credit from banks, people need to get the hell out = assets will be liquidated. Houses bought and sold for 25k cash, not a 185k mortgage. Cars bought for 1/5th of their pre-default value. etc.
Firesale of the century.

Post default - there will be no question about pressing the rest button - it will have already been pressed.
That could be better for you (assuming you don't need to use hospitals, unemployed siblings, pensioner parents), because of the distortion in the Irish economy.
While so many public sector workers have been so grossly overpaid for so long, it has hugely damaged your purchasing power.

Think of someone in Latvia in the private sector.
Perhaps they made 15,000 Lats per year, compared to a teacher making 25,000 Lats per year.
This person couldn't really compete.
Then public servants took a 50% pay cut.
Now that person's purchasing power has increased dramatically and that's in isolation of all the other converging events.

Asset values will collapse.
The amount of people able to take advantage will probably be very small.
Crime will skyrocket.
==

If you're in the public sector - then protect your cash in a foreign bank and get rid of debts immediately because you will be taking a Latvian style paycut.

If you're private and your company trades heavily in the domestic economy, don't go getting involved in any financial commitments, because as well as savage taxation, you will probably take a hefty paycut and probably lose your job. Get rid of debt and preserve money for emigrating if needs be.

If you're private and your company trades in the export economy, you could be sitting pretty

A.What foreign banks are good options?

B.Im currently paying off a personnel loan, theres about 12k left to pay off over 3 years, would i be better off trying to pay this off quicker and why

Brussels Sprout

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If you're in the public sector - then protect your cash in a foreign bank and get rid of debts immediately because you will be taking a Latvian style paycut.

Is this just wishful thinking?

dan_d

fat__tony wrote: »

Dan, I've heard you mention this briefly before but why in blazes did the company in question take you on in the first place if you were let go a month later?

Did they offer a permanent position in the contract?

Personally, if something like that happened to me, I'd be calling around with a shotgun the next day!

Yeah..to be honest I'd rather not get into the details on an internet forum.To be fair to them, it was a completely unforeseen situation, combined with the fact that they possibly jumped the gun a bit on hiring in new people. I wasn't the only one, there were a number of others they took on too.

You're not the first person to ask me that question though! I think that things had been picking up for them for a year ish after a couple of really awful years, they felt they were stabilising, they had work coming in and then it all came crashing down.

To say I was completely devastated is an understatement....

HellFireClub

Here's an article that I just found over in the Business & Enterpreneurship Forum... Have a read of it, it puts a particular spotlight on the kind of hopelessly embedded corruption that will ensure that this country will never get back on its feet...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boi-lent-top-brass-euro50m-as-businesses-refused-cash-2672692.html

pog it

Protest on 16th July in Parnell Sq.

www.enoughcampaign.org

djpbarry

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Nope, only a well organised small chunk in important services. These types would think nothing of threatening to let people die on trolleys if they can't keep their bubble loot.

That’s a pretty ridiculous accusation.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

as is a second bailout

No, it’s not. Even if it were, it in no way supports your point.

pog it wrote: »

Protest on 16th July in Parnell Sq.

www.enoughcampaign.org

The protest overlooks the fact the EU-IMF bailout is needed for Ireland to keep up welfare payments and public sector spending.