Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

JustinDee

Experience what though? Leaving the country and your family to live elsewhere? I've done exactly that. Didn't moan a sook about it though.

Dannyboy83

JustinDee wrote: »

Experience what though? Leaving the country and your family to live elsewhere? I've done exactly that. Didn't moan a sook about it though.

What exactly is your point?
You've been cribbing for the last 5 posts - you do realise this is a discussion forum?

It seems to me you're just having a moan because people aren't saying what you want to hear.
If you want people to go quietly or not hear any discussion, why not turn off the monitor?

Otherwise, at least try to counter people's points instead of just moaning about the discussion?
It will make things a bit more interesting

dan_d

JustinDee wrote: »

Experience what though? Leaving the country and your family to live elsewhere? I've done exactly that. Didn't moan a sook about it though.

But you were able to come back after your few years abroad and get a job and settle down somewhere.

That's not a realistic option for many grads and others for the forseeable future.

And therein lies the difference.

If you've no problem with it that's fine. But many people do see the problem with it.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

As for the parents - well I (and doubtless plenty of others) know families where 3 of the 4 kids are now in NZ because they couldn't get work here...

They couldn’t find work anywhere between Ireland and New Zealand? I too am getting pretty sick of listening to tales of the poor Irish childeens being “forced” to emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It’s patent nonsense.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

But you were able to come back after your few years abroad and get a job and settle down somewhere.

That's not a realistic option for many grads and others for the forseeable future.

Because?

Dannyboy83

djpbarry wrote: »

They couldn’t find work anywhere between Ireland and New Zealand? I too am getting pretty sick of listening to tales of the poor Irish childeens being “forced” to emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It’s patent nonsense.

I will never understand this head in the sand attitude.

"Let's not discuss emigration and just emigrate stoically"
(because that seems to have worked so well in the past!)

I much rather people discuss what is broken, so that you can try to fix things, or at least protect yourself if nobody is going to fix it.
Why accept mediocrity?
Why not strive to be better?


confused.com

HellFireClub

djpbarry wrote: »

They couldn’t find work anywhere between Ireland and New Zealand? I too am getting pretty sick of listening to tales of the poor Irish childeens being “forced” to emigrate to Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It’s patent nonsense.

Is it really too much to ask that an Irish person might be able to stay in the country that they were born and reared in??? Where they have family and connections???

What is patent nonsense is how you have been allowed to disagree with absolutely everyone on this thead without exception without making a single contribution of your own...

HellFireClub

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

confused.com

SeriouslyfúckedUpLogic.com

Zubeneschamali

djpbarry wrote: »

I too am getting pretty sick of listening to tales of the poor Irish childeens

I think it's a good sign that people are upset that they might not be able to come back.

Back in the 80s, most of my college class couldn't wait to qualify so they could get out of "this god-forsaken hole of a country". You can see some of that in Pog It's posts, but he's actually angry that things are this bad, because he's surprised. Back in the day, no-one was surprised, we were resigned to it, and depressed, not angry.

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

"Let's not discuss emigration and just emigrate stoically"

Sure, let’s discuss migration. But can we leave the melodrama at the door?

HellFireClub wrote: »

Is it really too much to ask that an Irish person might be able to stay in the country that they were born and reared in???

Surely that depends on what they do? Regardless, nobody is going to convince me that many of those Irish people that are migrating to the far-flung corners of the globe could not find jobs in Europe.

Cookie_Monster

djpbarry wrote: »

Surely that depends on what they do? Regardless, nobody is going to convince me that many of those Irish people that are migrating to the far-flung corners of the globe could not find jobs in Europe.

I'm sure I could have but what difference does it make? We're heading to NZ because we chose too, not because it was the only option. Could have just as easily have been the UK and Holland, both of which we were looking at. But we made the decision to go to NZ cos we both wanted to at some point so why not. The world is a small place these day, Aus and NZ aren't really a whole lot further any more especially with the likes of Skype.

Ok so English speaking makes NZ, USA, Canada and Aus more attractive for a lot of Irish as most of us cannot speak a second language well enough but aside from that there no massive benefit over Europe.

retro child

my brothers girlfriend whos is from canada is in ireland at the moment for the 6th time now, she loves it here and wants to live here but its hard to get a visa, she says canada lacks culture and a real sence of what home is , i found austrailia the same and america no culture!!, its gas she cant get over how people on the street say hello to each other and we dont even know each other, she cant get over the fact we sing at the drop off a hat in the pub when the world is falling all around us!! lol :-) its a great little island but serious were would ya get it??

ireland is steeped in history and culture and we should be proud of our country!! , i said it befour i lived in oz for 8yrs and i just couldnt stay anymore but im glad im home now and i love ireland!! wouldnt live anywere else if you payed me and thats the truth!!!

djpbarry

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm sure I could have but what difference does it make? We're heading to NZ because we chose too, not because it was the only option. Could have just as easily have been the UK and Holland, both of which we were looking at. But we made the decision to go to NZ cos we both wanted to at some point so why not. The world is a small place these day, Aus and NZ aren't really a whole lot further any more especially with the likes of Skype.

Well, that’s not really true – Aus, NZ and Canada are far enough away to make frequent trips home impractical, so if one decides to venture that far abroad, one is choosing to be away from family and friends for substantial periods of time. Hell, I’m in London and I can’t afford to go home all that often.

But the rest of your post essentially echoes what I’m saying – emigrating to Aus & NZ (for example) is a conscious choice. Nobody is being forced to migrate tens of thousands of miles from Ireland.

COYW

dan_d wrote: »

But you were able to come back after your few years abroad and get a job and settle down somewhere.

That's not a realistic option for many grads and others for the forseeable future.

How is that not a realistic option for grads? They can go away for a few years, as they have no ties here, earn money and gain valuable experience and come back in a few years when things turn around, with that knowledge and start companies themselves or bring that knowledge to existing companies.

I am moving abroad at the end of the year and can't really see why it's such a bad thing. A stint abroad is an must for everyone, in my opinion.

HellFireClub

djpbarry wrote: »

Surely that depends on what they do? Regardless, nobody is going to convince me that many of those Irish people that are migrating to the far-flung corners of the globe could not find jobs in Europe.

No it doesn't depend on the job that they do. Many people who are being forced to emigrate, (because they are human beings and want to enjoy a minimal quality of life, and might possibly want to be able to sustain a family unit without living in abject poverty), these people cannot depend or rely on this government, who by the way are paid tens of times the average industrial wage, to do what most other civilised countries in the developed world can manage to do, which is encourage and incentivise long term sustainable jobs in this state.

It is not the job of government to create jobs. But it is the job of government to allow a society to have the necessary resources to create employment and job opportunities.

Whatever about making allowances for a minor issue with people out of work, the situation in this country is that this government is actively obstructing job creation to the point where almost half a million people are out of work. That's half a million people who have to be paid 188 Euro a week.

That's 94,000,000, yeah that's 94 Million Euro a week, just to keep people out of work.

This government is also making the most insane set of monetary decisions on our behalf, in particular it has decided to ring fence public, (sorry IMF/EU), funds to maintain a situation whereby public servants are protected from austerity, in order to prevent the country being selfishly held to ransom by greed driven strikes while the same PS workers claim to be supporting change but yet refuse to answer phones or process passports, and it has also decided to take on private debt that was brought about by the sheer rampant greed of what was going on back in 2006 and 2007 and 2008 in relation to the property market.

So due to all of the above, the country is being bled fúcking dry and there isn't a cent available to allow us to deal with the very core problem that we have here, which is consistent long term unemployment, caused mainly by small and medium sized businesses having to close down.

You might accept this reality as a standard of governance that you can subscribe to. I however do not and others on here also do not.

My family have been living in Ireland for centuries. Why on earth should I tolerate a situation whereby I have to leave this country because the people who run the country haven't the intelligence to tie their own fúcking shoelaces???

JustinDee

dan_d wrote: »

But you were able to come back after your few years abroad and get a job and settle down somewhere.

That's not a realistic option for many grads and others for the forseeable future

If it isn't a realistic option now, it wasn't back then either.
The only time graduates have ever been likely to stroll into employment was during the boom. Any other time, it has required a lot of hard yakka and heading elsewhere was a large part of that. Not the end of the world, believe it or not.

Dannyboy83

JustinDee wrote: »

If it isn't a realistic option now, it wasn't back then either.

So are you here or not?

The only time graduates have ever been likely to stroll into employment was during the boom.

Agreed.
And it wasn't even that simple during the boom either.
It was a different set of problems, more competition etc.

Any other time, it has required a lot of hard yakka and heading elsewhere was a large part of that. Not the end of the world, believe it or not.

I don't dispute that.
But what good is hard yakka going to make at home, when there are no places to be filled?

As HellFireClub said:
"It is not the job of government to create jobs. But it is the job of government to allow a society to have the necessary resources to create employment and job opportunities."

Our government about about to strangle any chance of that, in it's incubator, by launching 10billion worth of tax increases by 2015 and standing in the way of indigenous industry, while trying to coax foreign business to locate here through the IDA etc.

Nolanger

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

"It is not the job of government to create jobs. But it is the job of government to allow a society to have the necessary resources to create employment and job opportunities."

We need less people going to college and more people fishing in our seas.

djpbarry

HellFireClub wrote: »

No it doesn't depend on the job that they do.

I think we both know that's not true. Ireland is a small country with limited opportunities for certain professions, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. For example, one of my colleagues at university developed an interest in jet propulsion systems during the course of his degree and decided to pursue this interest professionally – staying in Ireland was simply not an option for him.

JustinDee

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So are you here or not?

That's my point. The melodramatic woe-upon-woe rhetoric existed then too. Tosh about folk being 'condemned' to leave etc etc.
Then graduates came back here having survived the alleged hell of being abroad.

JustinDee

Nolanger wrote: »

We need less people going to college and more people fishing in our seas.

Lol

HellFireClub

djpbarry wrote: »

I think we both know that's not true. Ireland is a small country with limited opportunities for certain professions, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. For example, one of my colleagues at university developed an interest in jet propulsion systems during the course of his degree and decided to pursue this interest professionally – staying in Ireland was simply not an option for him.

So we have leading edge semi conductor research going on in Ireland but not jet prolusion research.

Do they not do this stuff in UL at post grad research level???

Dannyboy83

JustinDee wrote: »

That's my point. The melodramatic woe-upon-woe rhetoric existed then too. Tosh about folk being 'condemned' to leave etc etc.
Then graduates came back here having survived the alleged hell of being abroad.

OK, I see the point your making.
I think words like condemned are just people expressing their anger mainly - I'm sure most people accept that you emigrate to have a better life, rather than staying here for a considerably worse one.

djpbarry wrote: »

I think we both know that's not true. Ireland is a small country with limited opportunities for certain professions, regardless of the prevailing economic circumstances. For example, one of my colleagues at university developed an interest in jet propulsion systems during the course of his degree and decided to pursue this interest professionally – staying in Ireland was simply not an option for him.

How can we change this?
The Tyndall institute is proof that Irish government can actually get it right.

One friend got a very high degree in genetics from UCC.
But she couldn't find work in Ireland, didn't want to leave, is doing accountancy instead. We could do with a few more geneticists, doubt we have a shortage of accountants tho.

My sister has a phd & works in a University in London.
She got married recently, so she won't be coming back and I'm happy that's she's happy, but I do think it's a senseless waste. (and nothing against the unemployed, but it's twice as bad when we keep our unemployed at home and send the people we need to generate taxes to pay for them away)
The irony is that she earns less over there, than she would earn here.
So it wasn't lack of resources that was the problem, it was misallocation of resources. (and sexism).

djpbarry

HellFireClub wrote: »

So we have leading edge semi conductor research going on in Ireland but not jet prolusion research.

You can’t have a world-class research facility in every conceivable field in such a small country (or any country really) – it’s just not possible.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

My sister has a phd & works in a University in London.
She got married recently, so she won't be coming back and I'm happy that's she's happy, but I do think it's a senseless waste.

Researchers are always going to have to travel, whether they’re Irish or not. There are 12 people in my lab here in London and none of them are from London. I don’t have any figures to hand, but I would guess that most of the staff in the institute as a whole are non-British. Previously, I worked in a lab in Dublin, where for about 2 years, none of my colleagues were Irish. That said, just because research institutes are always going to seek to employ the best candidates based on an international search, rather than just at the national level, doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be greater investment in research in Ireland. You can never spend too much on research – well, you probably can, but I’m biased.