Stay and do something or get the hell away?!

pog it

Joe Steve Ó Neachtain is a native Irish speaker, writer and actor from Conamara, has played the part of Peadar in Ros na Rún, has written many novels in Irish and has more than done his bit for the language and the country in general.

It was also a conscious decision on his part. I watched a documentary about him a couple of years ago and in it he said that he considered leaving the country at one point when he was young but was persuaded to stay having been advised that it's better to stay and contribute something to your country if you can rather than to emigrate.

Well I've lived my life so far on this idea as well and would like to think I've made a lot of positive contributions. I'm still young and I undoubtedly could do more. I also have a decent job, albeit part-time. But faced with the apathy in the country and the likelihood of several more years of this country being in recession and with a good chance of default happening when it's too late, well I'm starting to think it's best to get out of here. I am starting to hate this country more and more and fed up listening to the crap from the government, worse again the behaviour and apathy of the Irish people. It's taking all the good out of things for me. I'm a positive person normally, put a lot into life and have gotten lots back but what is happening here is wrong and not enough of us care enough.

It's time to get out of here before I completely hate this country isn't it?

Prakari

Until the social unrest begins, Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place, especially for young people. Young adulthood will disappear as the 20 somethings stay in college getting pointless degrees, live with their parents on social welfare, or engage in free labour to get experience for jobs that don’t exist. Nonetheless, the anger and technical competence of group is the last resource left to prevent the debt enslavement of this society.

RichardAnd

I'm 24 so I'm just at the end of the "young person" spectrum that so often gets a mention in the media. I do have a job, one that's as secure as any can be right now and I am eternally grateful for it. However, I recently spent an evening with my girlfriend and her soon to be graduates friends of which not one (in a group of six) had a job on the horizon.

Did that surprise me? Not in the least. It did however, remind me of my first few weeks as a bitter and disillusioned graduate. Being quite upset by my inability to find paid work, I booked an appointment with our college career advisor. After expressing my concerns to her, she informed me of a company that was very eager to hire some IT graduates which naturally, piqued my interest. Sadly, I was quick to learn that this company was offering nothing more than "exciting opportunities" salary free.

When told her that the point of working is to be paid, she looked at me like I had just told her I expected to be offered a job as the CEO of Microsoft. I didn't stay for the end of the session.

Now this might have just been one very out of touch employee of the college but her attitude to unpaid work was something I would see and continue to see from many older people towards the young. There seems to be a belief that unpaid work is ok, even a good thing for young people to be doing when in reality it is a sickening and soul-destroying experience that is more depressing than being unemployed. Those that express this view are often dismissed as lazy, belonging to the "Celtic Club" or as that pr**k Bill Cullen put it "mollycoddled".

I have said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact; do not ever let someone convince you that working for free is ok. No matter the economic situation, a day's work should come with some form of payment.

Permabear

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The_Thing

RichardAnd wrote: »

There seems to be a belief that unpaid work is ok, even a good thing for young people to be doing when in reality it is a sickening and soul-destroying experience that is more depressing than being unemployed.

What else did you expect from the IBEC race-to-the-bottom gangsters?

saa

If someone can secure a visa, a good job and the funds to do the move why not? Sad thing is when the point comes where I am forced to move so I can have work I will not have a penny to do so as I just get by I can barely pay bills so Ive never been able to save, I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

FlashD

You should definately leave OP.

It's Joe Steve Ó Neachtain's loss that he didn't leave the country. How can you learn anything about the world stuck back in Connemara all your life? He got some bad advice.

Whether the economy is good or bad; living, working and travelling in another country is an education in itself. It's not about the contribution to your home country, it's about your own personal development. Contributing to your country can come at a later stage in life.

Regards.

JustinDee

saa wrote: »

I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

What you mean your degree isn't "valid"? Of course it is. However, a degree doesn't guarantee you stroll into the upper echelons of your chosen field the second you receive it. Fifteen years experience/internship on a degree that I'm guessing is a three year course (you're only 20) ???

JustinDee

saa wrote: »

I'm 20 and have a degree that isnt valid without 5-8 years of work experience so to say and I could only probably make a living when im 35 if I get employed as a college tutor... if..

What you mean your degree isn't "valid"? Of course it is. However, a degree doesn't guarantee you stroll into the upper echelons of your chosen field the second you receive it. Fifteen years experience/internship on a degree that I'm guessing is a three year course (you're only 20) ???

professore

RichardAnd wrote: »

I have said this before and I will say it again, right now in fact; do not ever let someone convince you that working for free is ok. No matter the economic situation, a day's work should come with some form of payment.

With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

professore

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree on your choice Permabear, but I would say this:

This is all well and good if Mammy has put you through college and can subsidise you to do paid work experience, but if you live in the real world where you need to pay bills yourself, I would pick the third person who took a job unrelated to their qualifications, emigrated or figured out some way to actually make some money themselves over either of the two above.

Any company who offers unpaid work experience for actual work that needs to be done are by definition the scum of the earth IMHO, in the same category as users of child and slave labour, and I'm an employer myself. It should be illegal. With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

population

Permabear wrote: »

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Only people with significant cash reserves could afford to work for a year with no pay. That is not the majority of people in Ireland. I am a former employer who at the height of the boom employed a modest staff of 4 people. I would start any new employees on a trial basis and reduced rate for the first 2 weeks so I could see up close if they were good workers and not just good interviewees. After the 2 weeks I knew if they were up to the job and I was never wrong. On that day I would immediatley put them on the full rate and we kicked on.

At no stage however did I think that I should pay them nothing during this period. They worked, they deserved payment. I really think that if the business model for companies now is to bid for contracts basing their figures on getting free labour to do it, then really they are not an actual business. It is stealing. It used to be that you factored wages in as a cost to your company, now it seems to be being treated like some sort of avoidable hassle by some employers. It is just wrong and bodes ill for the future.

Jubo

Op, if you're young enough and feeling brave enough, emigrate. I would, if I was young, brave and didn't have three kids! Emigration isn't necessarily an awful thing. Broaden the horizons and all that! It can save you having to sit here for the next x number of years (sorry folks, don't mean to sound so negative) watching the situation deteriorate. I emigrated to come here 20 years ago and for the most part its been good. Getting a lot tougher now, but we're kinda stuck here for the moment. If you're prepared to work, you'll get on fine anywhere.

And yes, I'm afraid I won't discourage my own kids if they want to go, although it makes me feel so desperately sad to think they could end up moving away.

djpbarry

Prakari wrote: »

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Until young people realise that jobs don’t come for free, regardless of the prevailing economic conditions, then Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place for them. I worked in DIT for a number of years and the attitude I frequently encountered among “soon-to-be-graduates” (usually in biotechnology or a related discipline) was nothing short of appalling. Even at the height of an economic boom and unprecedented demand for such graduates, many had difficulty securing employment, simply because they were of the opinion that their qualifications guaranteed them employment – I heard several horror stories of interviews being attended in jeans and t-shirts (although admittedly, these were extreme cases). I should of course stress that I am referring to a minority of students, but quite a large minority. It’s also probably worth mentioning that I recall the career guidance “teacher” at my school (in the mid to late 90’s) propagating similar myths about graduates walking into employment.

pog it wrote: »

I watched a documentary about him a couple of years ago and in it he said that he considered leaving the country at one point when he was young but was persuaded to stay having been advised that it's better to stay and contribute something to your country if you can rather than to emigrate.

That’s pretty terrible advice – he should have done what was best for him. Most emigrants ultimately return home, bringing valuable skills and experience with them, which will ultimately benefit the country. Think of it as the long-term importing of expertise from abroad.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ireland is not in a hopeless situation – things could be a whole lot worse. There are certainly pressing issues that need to be addressed, but the problems are not insurmountable.

Dannyboy83

No offence OP, but you sound a little naieve.
What is there to 'contribute'?
How can you be loyal to a country that doesn't give a damn about you?
Look at the people who run the country, they are loyal only to their bank accounts.

Have you ever read Eamon De Valera's biography?
The man was loyal to nothing/nobody except himself.
He certainly wasn't loyal to Ireland.
Seriously, start looking out for #1 and don't believe any of the propaganda/romantic horsesh1t

ei.sdraob

There is a 3rd option of which one can avail of

stay here and milk the system

RichardAnd

professore wrote: »

With two exceptions ... volunteer charity work or work experience as part of a college course.

Yes, I agree. These would be two exceptions.

RichardAnd

population wrote: »

At no stage however did I think that I should pay them nothing during this period. They worked, they deserved payment. I really think that if the business model for companies now is to bid for contracts basing their figures on getting free labour to do it, then really they are not an actual business. It is stealing. It used to be that you factored wages in as a cost to your company, now it seems to be being treated like some sort of avoidable hassle by some employers. It is just wrong and bodes ill for the future.

I can personally name three different firms that have bid, and won, government contracts by counting un-paid interns as members of staff. As these firms are clients of my own company, I can't actually name them but it demonstrates that it does go on, alot.

I'm just thankful that my own company small as it is, does not engage in that brand of chancer antics.

dan_d

Op, I'm unemployed, and emigration is one of our options.

Setting aside advice from randomners, or whatever, I see a couple of sides to this argument (I should add that my feeling on the whole thing fluctuates wildly from day to day.)

On one side, I can't help wondering why the hell I'm struggling along here, trying to make things work, trying to find a job, worrying all the time about where money will come from, how I'll ever get an income again (I've been working for the last 5 years before this) and listening to some of the crap that's spouted by various know-it-alls around the country. I frequently ask myself why I don't just leave, walk into a job (that I know would be there for me) on the other side of the Atlantic, that pays well and set up life there.

Another side of me then asks "why the f*&k should I be driven out of my country?" Why should I have to leave my house, my family, my friends, the places and people I love, just because somebody else screwed up. Why should I be one of the ones that has to go? Why don't I just make my way here, screw them all, and look after myself?

I've yet to decide which side I'll come down on. But I'll be damned if let the actions of some suit-wearing politician with half a brain, dictate what happens in my life.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Permabear wrote: »

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As far as I'm aware there is a graduate placement scheme which does that. I'm in favour of graduates being able to gain experience through this but I'd worry that companies will use it as a way to cut costs and take on less paid staff.

tweedledee

I recently moved back here from far far away.Yep everybody,EVERYBODY said I must have a medical condition or something.
I honestly NEVER realised how miserable this country had become.
Coming back every few months for a holiday dosn't prepare you for actually living here.
THE BIGGEST MISTAKE I HAVE EVER MADE IN MY LIFE :(
Its not just the lack of jobs thing,its the whole system.All the major companies are jumping on the "work experience" bandwagon.Work for free crap.I have tons of qualifications and experience in HR and still every company wants me to work an entire year for NOTHING??????
The recession really showed up the negative traits of Ireland and the Irish and its not getting any better.
I gave it a bash but its time to go back to where I recently arrived from and enjoy life instead of just existing here in Ireland.
To anybody thinking about leaving just go and experience the world.You will look at yer life in a whole new way.
I recently read in an Economics magazine that approx 70% of Irish who leave these shores dont come back.Thats very sad.:(

Permabear

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tweedledee

A very large supermarket chain have just advertised for degree holders to join their "excellent" work placement scheme and work 50 hours a week for free to gain experience in management.
The same company,just over a year ago,were offering a salary of approx 40000 yoyos for the same "management job".
This supermarket chain is just one of many businesses doing the same thing,which should be illegal as the work placement scheme was not set up to be abused like this by employers.
But as the Irish government are in the pocket of big business nothing will change.:mad:

pog it

Yes think maybe I am being naive somewhat Drummerboy.

Have decided make the move out of here at the end of the summer and get away from here for 12 months at least. No way am I paying taxes to cover banking losses and all the other blood suckers in this country. Life is too short.

HellFireClub

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yeah, work for free, there's always work to be found if you will do it for nothing...

HellFireClub

tweedledee wrote: »

A very large supermarket chain have just advertised for degree holders to join their "excellent" work placement scheme and work 50 hours a week for free to gain experience in management.
The same company,just over a year ago,were offering a salary of approx 40000 yoyos for the same "management job".
This supermarket chain is just one of many businesses doing the same thing,which should be illegal as the work placement scheme was not set up to be abused like this by employers.
But as the Irish government are in the pocket of big business nothing will change.:mad:

+100, this government and the shower of spastics before them, seem to be able to come up with any type of a scheme or a plan, except the one we need which will result in full time fair and decent PAID job opportunities...

tweedledee

For anybody thinking of making the move,Canada is superb and vast followed by Down Unda.;)

JENNYWREN19

dan_d wrote: »

Op, I'm unemployed, and emigration is one of our options.

Setting aside advice from randomners, or whatever, I see a couple of sides to this argument (I should add that my feeling on the whole thing fluctuates wildly from day to day.)

On one side, I can't help wondering why the hell I'm struggling along here, trying to make things work, trying to find a job, worrying all the time about where money will come from, how I'll ever get an income again (I've been working for the last 5 years before this) and listening to some of the crap that's spouted by various know-it-alls around the country. I frequently ask myself why I don't just leave, walk into a job (that I know would be there for me) on the other side of the Atlantic, that pays well and set up life there.

Another side of me then asks "why the f*&k should I be driven out of my country?" Why should I have to leave my house, my family, my friends, the places and people I love, just because somebody else screwed up. Why should I be one of the ones that has to go? Why don't I just make my way here, screw them all, and look after myself?

I've yet to decide which side I'll come down on. But I'll be damned if let the actions of some suit-wearing politician with half a brain, dictate what happens in my life.

My sentiments exactly. I moved countries once for economic reasons, and I'll be damned if I'm wandering off to another country to start again, even though I've been unemployed for six months now. we can't just pack up and move every time our inept government lands us with their problems. I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave. Well, we can't all desert the sinking ship so what are we going to do? I know if I'm hit with water charges etc I'll expect a reliable water supply that doesn't pack up at the first sign of frost, otherwise they can go sing. Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job. THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND

djpbarry

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sorry, I was a bit non-hysterical there for a moment...

djpbarry

tweedledee wrote: »

I have tons of qualifications and experience in HR and still every company wants me to work an entire year for NOTHING??????

Possibly because qualifications and/or experience in HR are not in demand right now?

tweedledee wrote: »

I recently read in an Economics magazine that approx 70% of Irish who leave these shores dont come back.

I find that very hard to believe.

HellFireClub wrote: »

this government and the shower of spastics before them, seem to be able to come up with any type of a scheme or a plan, except the one we need which will result in full time fair and decent PAID job opportunities...

What might such a plan look like?

djpbarry

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave.

I think people are busy either working or looking for work. Demonstrating isn’t something that’s likely to enhance the average CV.

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job.

The recently-elected government are not doing their job?

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS...

No, the government are our representatives.

im invisible

Prakari wrote: »

Until the social unrest begins, Ireland will remain a very boring and depressing place, especially for young people. Young adulthood will disappear as the 20 somethings stay in college getting pointless degrees, live with their parents on social welfare, or engage in free labour to get experience for jobs that don’t exist. Nonetheless, the anger and technical competence of group is the last resource left to prevent the debt enslavement of this society.

Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.

steve9859

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

My sentiments exactly. I moved countries once for economic reasons, and I'll be damned if I'm wandering off to another country to start again, even though I've been unemployed for six months now. we can't just pack up and move every time our inept government lands us with their problems. I'm amazed there hasn't been more demonstrations against new charges and cuts though. I believe too many people are hoping that they can just leave. Well, we can't all desert the sinking ship so what are we going to do? I know if I'm hit with water charges etc I'll expect a reliable water supply that doesn't pack up at the first sign of frost, otherwise they can go sing. Honestly. are we all going to as we're told or stick two fingers up to the government and tell them to do their job. THE GOVERNMENT ARE OUR SERVANTS, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND

Protesting against the government isn't going to result in a nice paycheque at the end of this month. Moving abroad is.

That was the end of the argument as far as I was concerned.

HellFireClub

djpbarry wrote: »

What might such a plan look like?

I've made this point before on the forum, it isn't actually that complicated I think.

When I was on the dole last year, one thing that amazed me every month was the experience of "signing on"... A queue containing hundreds and hundreds of people, in a building that looked as if it was designed to utterly depress you, served by a building full of people who had nothing but unbridled contempt for you, as everyone kept their heads down looking at the ground for fear they might be recognised or recognise a neighbour and have to deal with the ackwardness of all of that...

Think about this for a minute... The place to start fixing the problem of massive unemployment is down at the dole office once a month. I know for sure that most of the people who are in that queue (I've been that person and I've mates who are still in the queue), do not want to be there.

Three things need to happen for us to start dealing with unemployment I think:

(1) The dole queue needs to be spliut down into three queues once a month:

QUEUE: A... You are willing to take work immediately. Instead of signing on, you go down to a new private sector agency appointed by the government, like a recruitment agency type body, and they will get you a job, consumerate with your skills and experience. You will be required to file an online CV with this body and work closely with a jobs faciliator who will "manage" you off the dole and into a job.

QUEUE: B... People who want to start a business. They also deal with this new agency but another part of it, that specialises in getting micro businesses off the ground. This will foster new job creation, provide access to seed capital by way of small loans, provide statr up incubator/office/small industrial space, again the key to getting it working is to keep the public sector, with their beards and their unions and their endless obstruction and blocking practices, completely out of the loop at all times.

QUEUE: C... You don't want to work or start up a business. I'm convinced that this group is the smallest, I don't know what to do with the folks in this cohort but I do feel that if a plan like this was put in place where everyone had to have some kind of a plan to get themselves off the dole, whether it be a PAYE job or self employment, we would be at least off to a very good start.

I'm not PS bashing here but after 2 years on the dole, I can say one thing for a certainty, for any progress to be possible on working with those on the dole with a view to getting folks back to work, the people working down behind hatch 45 need to be kept completely out of the loop, they are a large part of the problem in my view...

JENNYWREN19

djpbarry wrote: »

I think people are busy either working or looking for work. Demonstrating isn’t something that’s likely to enhance the average CV.
The recently-elected government are not doing their job?
No, the government are our representatives.

First of all, there's very little work to be had

Secondly, the recently elected government are still finding their feet. they didn't inherit the best situation when they came to power. But to talk of cutting social welfare payments and introducing universal charges is not the best call while inept bankers collect massive pensions.

the government are there to serve us, not their own private interests. Politicians often have short memories regarding this fact. any politician supporting the above mentioned charges or work placement programmes is definitely not my representative.

My central point is that while a pretty large number of people are making the choice to go abroad, eventually this option will close down and the rest of us will be left here, having to sort out some way through for ourselves and our families

Inverse to the power of one!

One thing that can be said for travel is it shows you different ways of doing things and gives you a sense of how it can be better. It's a big world and opportunity knocks when you travel to meet it. I made the move before the sh*t hit the fan, and I can only say that I am all the better for having done so. Had I stayed, I'm not sure what I would be contributing other then taxes(were I lucky) and moans. At least now I am in a place where when I do move back, I'll be bringing more to contribute then I could have had I stayed.

Go forth and prosper OP.....

steve9859

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

My central point is that while a pretty large number of people are making the choice to go abroad, eventually this option will close down and the rest of us will be left here, having to sort out some way through for ourselves and our families

That is a good point. I am in London now working in finance. There are not that many jobs (though obviously many more than in Ireland), and an increasing number of Irish people after them. There is an Irish network in London that is very good at helping people coming from Dublin to get jobs - making introductions and so forth. But the numbers trying to tap that network is increasing, and it is getting more and more difficult to help them out. I would not be surprised if the same dynamic is at work in other sectors and in other countries. The message is that if you think you will end up leaving Ireland for a while, you have got to go now.

tweedledee

Another great thing about moving away is that you see how things are done in other countries.Sometimes badly,like Ireland but mostly,much better like UK, most of mainland Europe,NZ,Australia and my favourite ,Canada.
The bizarre thing is even though I'm Irish, over the years I have been better treated by employers in England than in Ireland and honestly at work,socialising etc,English people have by far, been more friendly to me and my Irish friends than anywhere in Ireland.Very strange at first but something I'm used to now.
The Government are 50% to blame for the problems in Ireland and the public are 50% to blame also.Time and time again Joe Public votes in either FF or FG and then when banks and big business are looked after the Irish voters do,,,,,,eh,,,,,,,NOTHING!!!
Thats why Irish polititians do whatever they like,they know that the gullible,submissive Irish voter will lay back and take it.
Go to France or Germany and their public are baffled as to why the Irish don't protest.
Europe's polititians just LOVE the Irish mentality.

JENNYWREN19

tweedledee wrote: »

Another great thing about moving away is that you see how things are done in other countries.Sometimes badly,like Ireland but mostly,much better like UK, most of mainland Europe,NZ,Australia and my favourite ,Canada.
The bizarre thing is even though I'm Irish, over the years I have been better treated by employers in England than in Ireland and honestly at work,socialising etc,English people have by far, been more friendly to me and my Irish friends than anywhere in Ireland.Very strange at first but something I'm used to now.
The Government are 50% to blame for the problems in Ireland and the public are 50% to blame also.Time and time again Joe Public votes in either FF or FG and then when banks and big business are looked after the Irish voters do,,,,,,eh,,,,,,,NOTHING!!!
Thats why Irish polititians do whatever they like,they know that the gullible,submissive Irish voter will lay back and take it.
Go to France or Germany and their public are baffled as to why the Irish don't protest.
Europe's polititians just LOVE the Irish mentality.

that was my point exactly. I'm baffled as to why the Irish don't protest. I've been trawling the net trying to find some national pressure group I can join regarding the latest cuts/proposed charges and I've found .......nothing???
Can anybody help me on this one?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Isn't it well for them.

HellFireClub

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

that was my point exactly. I'm baffled as to why the Irish don't protest. I've been trawling the net trying to find some national pressure group I can join regarding the latest cuts/proposed charges and I've found .......nothing???
Can anybody help me on this one?

Protest about what though??? The problems that this country has are too big to be solved by protests, it's gone way way beyond the point where protests will do anything for this country.

There is no getting away from the reality, and the reality is that this place has been completely and utterly run into the ground over the last 15 years. Money was p*ssed all over the place for years without any notion of seeking value for what was spent, we failed to adopt or support viable and sustainable industries, instead we went with the stroke and the quick buck on property.

There is no avoiding the reality that everything in this country is completely and utterly out of kilter and serious adjustments have to be made...

tweedledee

Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.

HellFireClub

tweedledee wrote: »

Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.

Don't agree with a word of this, this government at at the start of a 5 year term, they couldn't give a fiddlers what you protest about, they have a police force to deal with any protests that get out of hand, and most of the people in the country at this stage can't stand unions or the hierarchy that lead the unions, all members of whom are completely insulated from the savage austerity that others are beinge exposed to.

Do you think any right minded sane person on the dole is going to stand on O' Connell Street and take a lecture in austerity from David Begg or Jack O' Connor on their 100K plus expenses salaries!?!

Ryaner don't hate unions, they just don't tolerate any external entity telling them how to run their business operations. There's nothing personal to it, they just know that they cannot run an airline while under a constant threat to shut down the business, look at the state of Aer Lingus, if you were flying into or out of this country this week, what carrier do you think you'd be going with??? The one that will get you from A to B or the one that will be on strike for better terms & conditions in the middle of the worst Irish recession ever, while you're stranded in another country somewhere?!?

JENNYWREN19

tweedledee wrote: »

Protesting scares the ****e out of polititians,they react when they are scared.
Any polititian,anywhere in the world will tell you they HATE uprisings.It puts the fear of God in them.
For example AerLingus management pushed and pushed their Pilots until the pilots pushed back,HARD and that terrified those on high,and instantly changes were made.
Nothing more scary than an angry employee.
The reason why Ryanair HATE unions,same principle for voters.

Exactly. We won't get anywhere with that 'ah sure, what can ye do?' attitude. If the electorate don't make some kind of protest then we are accepting unacceptable policies through sheer apathy. I'm not going to give (yet another) long speech about the poll tax riots in England, suffice to say they achieved the desired result and the tax was dropped

HellFireClub

JENNYWREN19 wrote: »

Exactly. We won't get anywhere with that 'ah sure, what can ye do?' attitude. If the electorate don't make some kind of protest then we are accepting unacceptable policies through sheer apathy. I'm not going to give (yet another) long speech about the poll tax riots in England, suffice to say they achieved the desired result and the tax was dropped

Sorry, it's everyone for themselves now, you didn't see the people on the Titanic organising a protest when the sea water was up on the deck and swashing around their ankles.

I've spent the last 12 odd months in this country trying to start up a small business and trying to do the whole, "yes we can" thing, and I'm under no illusions whatsoever that if you are trying to improve your situation in this country whether you are unemployed or whatever, (and that's what my situation was until very recently), then you are on your own.

Once you accept that you are on your own and that you have to fight your way out of your situation, then you can move forward. If you start thinking that you can change this place, you will end up a broken person I think, this place is hoplessly backward and corrupt, and my advice to you is don't waste your time trying to fix this place, because you will most likely end up jumping into the river...

tweedledee

I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.

HellFireClub

tweedledee wrote: »

I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.

They can riot all they want in Greece, at the end of the day though they are spending way way more than they are taking in through taxes so cuts have to be made!

Loads of people in this country have taken the ultimate pay cut, myself being one of them, there is no point in me protesting, there is nothing to be gained by me protesting, I'd rather put my energy into doing something that will resolve my problems and start up a businesss.

I will never stand on a street with a union in this country, I've nothing in common with those that might protest in this country. What would I, or any unemployed person have in common with an Irish PS worker who has notions of entitlement in their head now because they had 10-15 years of gravy train social partnership talks and rewards, 40-50K salaries, lovely cosy pensions, no accountability for performance in the workplace, automatic collective salary increases year after year for nothing in return???

Do you think we can keep on running a country like this and that everything will be hunky dory?!?

beeftotheheels

tweedledee wrote: »

I think unions in this country are a mess,i was making a point.Yer very wrong about Polititians not being worried about protests.Irish Gov only get away with robbery because they know sooo many people have the same " ahh sure wat can we do,I'm off to the pub" attitude as you have just demonstrated.
Greece have been getting away with murder and lies for years and because of the threat of riots their Gov has been VERY slow to make any cuts and because Europe fear a breakdown in the Euro they have been very light with the Greeks.
Greek Gov has pretty much done naffall to cut costs or salaries but EU is treating them much much better than us because EU knows the Irish will LAY DOWN and TAKE IT but the Greeks will RIOT at a moments notice.

The EU is not treating them much better than us, Greece may yet be let go under.

Let us be clear here, the Greek, and Irish, the Portuguese, and to a lesser extent the Spanish people have a nuclear bomb strapped to them. The Greeks are looking like they might just be ill informed/ self absorbed/ insane enough to explode the thing, while the Irish are sensibly trying to work within the program to give the bomb disposal experts time to diffuse it.

It might just be possible to make a controlled explosion of Greece if the Greek people refuse to let the bomb disposal guys do their jobs, we don't know and I would rather not find out.

But you are suggesting we model ourselves on the Greeks and destroy ourselves and everything around us, because that would make us feel better, while we reverted to eating boiled potatoes and salt in our hovels, and hoped that the blight didn't strike, I have to disagree with you.

dan_d

Op, I should have added to my early post that I have travelled quite a lot and have worked abroad (albeit briefly). I am wholeheartedly in support of travelling, especially when you're from an island like we are, and I (and the OH) would love to live abroad for a couple of years.

We'd just like to know that we could come back after a year or two. And the way things are right now it doesn't look that way. Hence the 2 sides that I see to this decision.

djpbarry

HellFireClub wrote: »

QUEUE: A... You are willing to take work immediately.

So pretty much everyone will be in this queue, right?

HellFireClub wrote: »

Instead of signing on, you go down to a new private sector agency appointed by the government, like a recruitment agency type body, and they will get you a job, consumerate with your skills and experience.

But the country is already overrun with recruitment agencies? Why do we need one with a special arrangement with the Department of Social & Family Affairs?

HellFireClub wrote: »

QUEUE: B... People who want to start a business. They also deal with this new agency but another part of it, that specialises in getting micro businesses off the ground. This will foster new job creation, provide access to seed capital by way of small loans...

Were do the small loans come from?

HellFireClub wrote: »

QUEUE: C... You don't want to work or start up a business.

Who do you expect to see standing in this queue?

HellFireClub wrote: »

Ryaner don't hate unions, they just don't tolerate any external entity telling them how to run their business operations. There's nothing personal to it, they just know that they cannot run an airline while under a constant threat to shut down the business, look at the state of Aer Lingus, if you were flying into or out of this country this week, what carrier do you think you'd be going with??? The one that will get you from A to B (via C) or the one that will be on strike for better terms & conditions in the middle of the worst Irish recession ever, while you're stranded in another country somewhere?!?

FYP.