Legalize Cannabis Ireland

Cookie_Monster

I don't like weed personally and have little interest in it but can see the reasons why legalising it would, in general, work.

Of course there's still be the minority who would abuse it, like any drug inc alcohol, but for the vast majority it would improve quality of product received and also regulate and stabilise supply, impact crime funding, generate tax revenue (much like tobacco & alcohol large taxes can be put without affecting consumption overly), provide agri and production jobs and see a tourism boost akin to Amsterdam (whether we'd want that is a separate question). There are still downsides, passive effects, perception as a gateway drugs etc that would need to be quantified to people (ala anti tobacco and drink advertising, just to provide a balanced view) and concerns like the workplace issue brought up way back in the thread. Also it'd needs to be quantified how it would be dealt with in company random drug tests if you inhaled passively - I'm sure there are levels that can be measured to a degree reasonable enough to generally determine though

I don't see myself ever pro actively supporting it's legalisation but I've come to the point where I wouldn't object to it either.

Snake Pliisken

Before I pick apart your posts J2G, you need to know that you're very hard to understand. If you want to look like you have a credible, intelligent position in this debate please start using punctuation and a spellchecker.

J2G wrote:

I don't have an issue with legalising cannabis as such its the more the case of what if it was legal !!

Both of those things are the same, how can something be legalized without it being legal after? You're contradicting yourself.

J2G wrote:

the only things that would happen is certain peoples pockets get filled with cash nothing has changed there right.

It definitely isn't the only thing that would happen but yes, with legalization legitimate business men would be profiting instead of criminal gangs. What exactly is your problem with that?

J2G wrote:

We have a massive problem with alcoholism in Ireland as it is and that is legal and anyone that says cannabis is not addictive or harmful is a liar iv seen it hands on.

Well one partial solution to the alcohol problem in this country would be to legalize cannabis. It's been noted that the sale of alcohol to young males declines in states that legalize medical marijuana. The people who you've seen first hand fall to cannabis fell during prohibition. The state will never stop people from getting high, a portion of the population have addicitve personalities, these are facts of life. With legalization these people would be getting cleaner drugs and paying taxes into the health system for when they decide to get help. Wouldn't that be better than the situation we have now? Where these people get adulterated product and when it comes time to get help they end up using other tax payers money for public treatment?
Cannabis use in the Netherlands and Portugal(slight rise in 18-30 year olds here) dropped overall when decriminalization was brought in, there was less cannabis being smoked.

J2G wrote:

As it goes for specific social and economic issues it does affect the working economy and the non working economy, between people saying sod it I'm not doing the working thing any more i have weed to walk me through the day, or just being sent home or losing there job because of it all this leads to things going down hill.

Anybody who sits at home and smokes all day without doing any work, getting the dole is a social parasite. We need stricter controls over how the benefits system works; that's not a problem with cannabis, it's a problem with how people see the state.
People aren't allowed to go into work drunk are they? Why would it be different with cannabis?

J2G wrote:

We have all this already with alcohol so its double bubble then the problems we had with one legal substance has now just increased and can be a financial hit for the economy!

Alcohol is a much more dangerous drug than cannabis to both the user and society at large, just take a walk around town on a saturday night. Alcohol is also far more addictive(physically and mentally) than cannabis, which is a purely psychological addiction with no physical withdrawals(just like chocolate or picking your toenails).
Cannabis causes little to no physical harm to the body. It even offsets its damage to the lungs when smoked. The medical industry is finally starting to admit that cannabis has some serious potential in fighting cancer.
The governments of the world and their paymasters have given the plant alot more power over people than if it was legal since they have to continue lying to the public about the so called 'dangers'. It may be hard to hear but in alot of cases people who get 'addicted' to cannabis are weak minded fools, they use the drug to mask their deeper emotional or psychological problems and get a great excuse for all their failures. They don't have to take responsibility for themselves and their mammies and daddies can go off and tell the community that it wasn't Jimmy's fault that their son 'sits at home playing playstation, smoking the reefer and eating his weight in crisps all day' because he got trapped by a plant you see :rolleyes:
Any financial liability that cannabis brought with it with legalisation would be offset by the added revenues in taxes and savings in law enforcement.

If people were educated on what moderation was, that abusing drugs wasn't 'evil' but that you'd stupidly wreck your life, we would get rid of the drink problem in a generation. We have a chance with cannabis to legalize it and from the start educate the population, to show them how exercise their willpower instead of using judgement and misinformation to try and scare people away from having responsible fun.

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J2G wrote:

I'm an idiot read the topic dipstick " Legalize Cannabis Ireland " so what's your thoughts is not mine big swing its a bloody thread get over yourself buddy, i had my option so why don't you give yours on the topic and not me instead of calling people idiots.

I think you're trying to say you have as much of a right to an opinion as anyone else has. Well that'd be true if you backed up your opinion with facts instead of anecdotes and poorly worded speculation on the 'what ifs' of legalisation.

J2G wrote:

Did i say i never smoked it no ! i didn't i had my share of it and it does dope you up or is people going to say it doesn't now, would i have someone stoned next to me in the job that i do no not possible you need to be 100% awake not 50% asleep

Well if you did smoke it and you're advocating that other people shouldn't get the chance, you're a hypocrite. You decided that you were allowed try it, why can't other people? 'It dopes you out'? Cannabis has a hugely varied spectrum of highs, it can make you want to go for a run and it can make you fall asleep, it can make the most mundane thing interest and let you see someone else's point of view. It doesn't just 'dope you out', it isn't solely a depressant, like heroin or alcohol.
Again, if someone comes into work drunk, they'll be fired. Why would that be different for weed? It's a non-issue.

J2G wrote:

9 out of 10 of the people that kick off about it has no medicinal illness. I'm all for people getting it for medicinal illness why not iv lost someone to cancer i'm done here try to stick to the topic next time people and not what one person says.

Well i'm sure if hospital beds were illegal 9 out of 10 people lobbying for their legalization wouldn't be sick either. We're not talking about medical marijuana here though, we're saying it's our right to smoke cannabis without getting thrown in prison with people who've actually committed serious crimes.
Irish people are so brain washed anyway that if my granddad was perscribed cannabis by his doctor, he'd probably throw it in the bin and try and start a fist fight with 'drug peddler'.

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Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I don't like weed personally and have little interest in it but can see the reasons why legalising it would, in general, work.

Of course there's still be the minority who would abuse it, like any drug inc alcohol, but for the vast majority it would improve quality of product received and also regulate and stabilise supply, impact crime funding, generate tax revenue (much like tobacco & alcohol large taxes can be put without affecting consumption overly), provide agri and production jobs and see a tourism boost akin to Amsterdam (whether we'd want that is a separate question). There are still downsides, passive effects, perception as a gateway drugs etc that would need to be quantified to people (ala anti tobacco and drink advertising, just to provide a balanced view) and concerns like the workplace issue brought up way back in the thread. Also it'd needs to be quantified how it would be dealt with in company random drug tests if you inhaled passively - I'm sure there are levels that can be measured to a degree reasonable enough to generally determine though

I don't see myself ever pro actively supporting it's legalisation but I've come to the point where I wouldn't object to it either.

A reasoned approach. Well done.

ScumLord

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Also it'd needs to be quantified how it would be dealt with in company random drug tests if you inhaled passively - I'm sure there are levels that can be measured to a degree reasonable enough to generally determine though

There is a cut off for drug tests and if low levels just above the standardised cut off turned up in a result I'm sure you'd be able to argue your case (in Europe at least). A certain amount of THC is going to show up in your system naturally on these tests so they tend to work off a minimum level.

DjDoody

Not all drug dealers are wicked gangland criminals adding chemicals to drugs.Id say a lot are lads looking for cash and start growing and selling.If you can do it properly you can make thousands and not get caught or killed.Im not saying all drugs dealers are saints because theres a lot of scum out there just out their to make profit and dont care how they do it.

MaxSteele

I could get my hands on nearly every type of drug from Cannabis to heroin between my house and the 4 minute walk to my local Centra.

If legalization would lead to some mass outbreak of social problems, it would have happened by now. The nanny - state, sheep brigade are still laughably clutching at straws on this issue :rolleyes:

StupidLikeAFox

Domo230 wrote: »

Marijuana damaged my eyesight.

It annoys me when people say it's harmless. It wasn't harmless for me yet you never hear mention of the risks associated with the so called "harmless drug".

Fairly sure nobody is saying its harmless. Tobacco isnt harmless. Smokers know how harmful tobacco is yet still choose to smoke it. It should be the same with cannabis

Pushtrak

Domo230 wrote: »

Marijuana damaged my eyesight.

It annoys me when people say it's harmless. It wasn't harmless for me yet you never hear mention of the risks associated with the so called "harmless drug".

No one in their right mind says there isn't risks associated. For instance, I already posted this video earlier in the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=78662976&postcount=330

I do have to point something out though. I have never seen damage to eyesight brought up in the discussion before seeing you do so right now. I haven't been following this thread very closely, but have seen the topic in many other forums throughout the years.

I looked it up, and instead of something to back up eyesight risk, I found the opposite... http://www.nei.nih.gov/news/statements/marij.asp

Studies in the early 1970s showed that marijuana, when smoked, lowered intraocular pressure (IOP) in people with normal pressure and those with glaucoma. In an effort to determine whether marijuana, or drugs derived from marijuana, might be effective as a glaucoma treatment, the National Eye Institute (NEI) supported research studies beginning in 1978. These studies demonstrated that some derivatives of marijuana transiently lowered IOP when administered orally, intravenously, or by smoking, but not when topically applied to the eye.

However, none of these studies demonstrated that marijuana -- or any of its components -- could lower IOP as effectively as drugs already on the market. In addition, some potentially serious side effects were noted, including an increased heart rate and a decrease in blood pressure in studies using smoked marijuana.

I'd like to see something backing up this assertion of risks to eyesight. A good discussion about risks will actually discuss the tangible risks involved.

Pushtrak

I'll have to look around for some research papers on it. In any research endeavour, an important point to remember is correlation does not equal causation.

Edit: Calling it a night now, but did find something: Worth reading

Another frequent cause of visual snow is Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) following use of LSD, MDMA (ecstasy), psychedelic mushrooms or other hallucinogens. In HPPD, the symptom of visual snow has been described by Abraham (1983) as aeropsia (literally "seeing the air"). It is noteworthy that HPPD can occur after a single dose of a hallucinogen and with a considerable latency between last drug intake and onset of persistent perception disorder, so taking a thorough life-time drug history is mandatory in the diagnostic-work up of visual snow. There exists anecdotal evidence from single case observations that a variety of other illegal or prescribed drugs including cannabis, antibiotics, anti-depressants and neuroleptics may cause visual snow or other symptoms of persisting perceptual disorder, but for the time being this has not been established for any of these aforementioned classes of drugs.

southcentralts

"off their trollies"
"wasted"

sure the effects of cannabis can venture towards the altered reality state (though only when we get our hands on the good stuff) we do say and think worse from the alcohol than the green. and I cannot speak for anyone else but I was shocked by the effects of E magic mushrooms LSD coke and speed after smoking ( gateway drug indeed - ultimate in false advertising, I wonder sometimes how many people would not move on to the bad sh!t, if cannabis were legal) smoking for me was like just being happy with mediocrity, but some or the later drugs I tried ( on the basis that cannabis was not all that bad) were like getting a blowjob, while someone headbutts you repeatedly ( the good is SO good, the bad is worth it).

120_Minutes

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/17/opinion/a-judges-plea-for-medical-marijuana.xml

Surprise surprise: new York judge with cancer wants it legalised for medicinal use.

How stupid is a stupid law when a sitting judge thinks it's stupid?

Answer: very stupid.

Defiler Of The Coffin

In fairness to the people in this thread who are against legalisation there does seem to be a lot of disagreement over the safety of cannabis among health professionals. Here is a quote from BBC News:

Medical experts though, like Dr Owen Bowden-Jones from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, say cannabis is a dangerous drug and can cause severe psychological problems.

"It doesn't matter if people are growing one or 1,000 [plants]," he says.

"The issue here is the strength of the cannabis.

"It's the strength of the cannabis that determines the risk and the risks include anxiety, paranoia, hearing voices and of course emphysema and lung cancer."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/18079562

**Vai**

Course its not harmless, if you think its harmless, you're deluded. I would like to see it legalised though, for one it would stop crimelords making money off it and spraying it with fibreglass to make it weigh more.

Defiler Of The Coffin

**Vai** wrote: »

Course its not harmless, if you think its harmless, you're deluded. I would like to see it legalised though, for one it would stop crimelords making money off it and spraying it with fibreglass to make it weigh more.

It's certainly not harmless but there doesn't seem to be much consensus on the degree of harm it can cause e.g. causing lung cancer v preventing lung cancer.

Auvers

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

In fairness to the people in this thread who are against legalisation there does seem to be a lot of disagreement over the safety of cannabis among health professionals]

well put a warning label on the packet and let Adults decide for themselves

Defiler Of The Coffin

Auvers wrote: »

well put a warning label on the packet and let Adults decide for themselves

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for legalisation but it doesn't help the case when you have medical experts calling cannabis a "dangerous drug".

Auvers

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for legalisation but it doesn't help the case when you have medical experts calling cannabis a "dangerous drug".

yes but where is his study on the potential dangers or is that just his personal opinion?

the simple fact is the war on drugs doesn't work and just empowers the most dangerous people in society with power and money

**Vai**

Auvers wrote: »

well put a warning label on the packet and let Adults decide for themselves

You forget we live in a nanny state. Even the currently taxable drugs are going up in price so much that no one can afford them anymore.

**Vai**

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

It's certainly not harmless but there doesn't seem to be much consensus on the degree of harm it can cause e.g. causing lung cancer v preventing lung cancer.

Fair amount of research done on the effects of CBD in particular which seems to conclude it has many positive effects. As for lung cancer specifically, I coulnt say as I dont know much about that aspect.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Auvers wrote: »

yes but where is his study on the potential dangers or is that just his personal opinion?

the simple fact is the war on drugs doesn't work and just empowers the most dangerous people in society with power and money

Probably just his personal opinion. But still he will be heard by the people in power. The Pro-Cannabis lobby needs to get its act together, get organised and compile the studies it needs in order to prove that cannabis isn't a dangerous drug. Otherwise it will be hampered by experts with an agenda.

Totally agree with you about the crime aspect.

charlemont

Look at this ! More rubbish being blamed on cannabis, I'v never known anyone to act like that after a smoke, The fact that it is claimed he was not insane because he had being smoking is preposterous, This case should be brought to Strasbourg where impartial doctors can testify.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-found-guilty-following-cork-rampage-556404.html

Man found guilty following Cork rampage
Friday, June 22, 2012 - 05:55 PM

A 38-year-old man who went on the rampage in Cork city and in Cork airport, in a stolen vehicle, has been found guilty by a jury at Cork Circuit Criminal Court.

Edmund Stapleton, of no fixed abode, had denied a total of 12 charges - including assaulting a garda causing him harm, and threatening to kill a garda.

Charges also included hijacking an airport police vehicle and stealing a garda Jeep.

Stapleton hadn't denied the incident, but claimed he was insane at the time, due to bipolar affective disorder.

However, a psychiatrist for the prosecution said he didn't believe Stapleton was insane at the time, but was intoxicated, having consumed cannabis in the run up to the incident.

Judge Sean Ó Donnabháin remanded him in custody for sentencing next Wednesday.




http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0622/1224318455503.html

This is also a piss-take, As if his smoking made him drive like a maniac, Sure just blame the smoke.

A man was yesterday given a six-year driving ban and a €3,000 fine following a drug-driving incident. Judge Ann Watkin also imposed a three-month suspended sentence on Damien Gilson (35), who was found guilty of driving under the influence of cannabis, on September 8th, 2010.

Gilson had been tailgating and dangerously overtaking cars in Dublin before gardaí stopped him and found a half-smoked cannabis joint in the 08 registration Land Rover Discovery, along with more cannabis stashed in one of his socks.

Judge Watkin said Gilson of Raglan Road, had prior criminal convictions for assault and careless driving, had lied in court and showed no remorse. He was lucky not to be going to jail. She made an order that he cannot be in alone in a car while under probation supervision. “If the driver gets out of the car you get out,” she warned him at Dublin District Court.

paddyandy

There never will be a decent honest argument for the legalisation of drugs and this thread should be closed ........PERMANENTLY . There is not one good statement on this thread but there ARE vested interests watching like wolves at these posts .

mikom

paddyandy wrote: »

There never will be a decent honest argument for the legalisation of drugs and this thread should be closed ........PERMANENTLY . There is not one good statement on this thread but there ARE vested interests watching like wolves at these posts .

Yeahhhhh....... debate is evil.

Haven't you got a book burning to attend?

gaffer91

paddyandy wrote: »

There never will be a decent honest argument for the legalisation of drugs and this thread should be closed ........PERMANENTLY . There is not one good statement on this thread but there ARE vested interests watching like wolves at these posts .

Are you for real? On the contrary there are hardly any reasons to continue the failed policies of drug prohibition.

charlemont

paddyandy wrote: »

There never will be a decent honest argument for the legalisation of drugs and this thread should be closed ........PERMANENTLY . There is not one good statement on this thread but there ARE vested interests watching like wolves at these posts .

Your right about the vested interests Paddy, And yes they are worse than wolves, Some people scum I call them are doing very well out of the illegality of drugs. I don't differentiate between the likes of the Dundons or the Garda Drug Squad they are both scum and vermin in my eyes.

mikom wrote: »

Yeahhhhh....... debate is evil.

Haven't you got a book burning to attend?

Ha, Class. :cool:

MagicSean

charlemont wrote: »

Look at this ! More rubbish being blamed on cannabis, I'v never known anyone to act like that after a smoke, The fact that it is claimed he was not insane because he had being smoking is preposterous, This case should be brought to Strasbourg where impartial doctors can testify.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/man-found-guilty-following-cork-rampage-556404.html

Man found guilty following Cork rampage
Friday, June 22, 2012 - 05:55 PM

A 38-year-old man who went on the rampage in Cork city and in Cork airport, in a stolen vehicle, has been found guilty by a jury at Cork Circuit Criminal Court.

Edmund Stapleton, of no fixed abode, had denied a total of 12 charges - including assaulting a garda causing him harm, and threatening to kill a garda.

Charges also included hijacking an airport police vehicle and stealing a garda Jeep.

Stapleton hadn't denied the incident, but claimed he was insane at the time, due to bipolar affective disorder.

However, a psychiatrist for the prosecution said he didn't believe Stapleton was insane at the time, but was intoxicated, having consumed cannabis in the run up to the incident.

Judge Sean Ó Donnabháin remanded him in custody for sentencing next Wednesday.




http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0622/1224318455503.html

This is also a piss-take, As if his smoking made him drive like a maniac, Sure just blame the smoke.

A man was yesterday given a six-year driving ban and a €3,000 fine following a drug-driving incident. Judge Ann Watkin also imposed a three-month suspended sentence on Damien Gilson (35), who was found guilty of driving under the influence of cannabis, on September 8th, 2010.

Gilson had been tailgating and dangerously overtaking cars in Dublin before gardaí stopped him and found a half-smoked cannabis joint in the 08 registration Land Rover Discovery, along with more cannabis stashed in one of his socks.

Judge Watkin said Gilson of Raglan Road, had prior criminal convictions for assault and careless driving, had lied in court and showed no remorse. He was lucky not to be going to jail. She made an order that he cannot be in alone in a car while under probation supervision. “If the driver gets out of the car you get out,” she warned him at Dublin District Court.

The reporting on your first story is incorrect. A previous article on RTE states "The court was told that Mr Stapleton tested positive for cannabis, cocaine, amphetamines, opiates and benzodiazepines in the days after his arrest"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/edmond-stapleton-court.html

As to your second story, cannabis can have the same effect as alcohol, and even tiredness, on driving. They all affect your judgement. Even small amounts can make someone do stupid things that they wouldn't otherwise do. Misjudging distance and speed as well as poor reactions time and maneouver ability are all effects of each of the above. Tailgating and bad overtaking is not unusual for people under the influence.

charlemont

gaffer91 wrote: »

Are you for real? On the contrary there are hardly any reasons to continue the failed policies of drug prohibition.

Thing is the anti drug brigade would have to admit they were wrong, Joe Duffy types would never admit this, The Gardaí wouldn't know what to do without Cannabis being illegal, They would fight any legalization tooth and nail. Yet you don't see them tackle Heroin or corruption the way they tackle Cannabis.

MagicSean

charlemont wrote: »

Your right about the vested interests Paddy, And yes they are worse than wolves, Some people scum I call them are doing very well out of the illegality of drugs. I don't differentiate between the likes of the Dundons or the Garda Drug Squad they are both scum and vermin in my eyes.

Perhaps your eyes are a little hazy.

MagicSean

charlemont wrote: »

The Gardaí wouldn't know what to do without Cannabis being illegal, They would fight any legalization tooth and nail.

Have you any evidence for this?

paddyandy

Drug taking might well explain the rubbish being posted here .....their brains are addled .

charlemont

MagicSean wrote: »

The reporting on your first story is incorrect. A previous article on RTE states "The court was told that Mr Stapleton tested positive for cannabis, cocaine, amphetamines, opiates and benzodiazepines in the days after his arrest"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0620/edmond-stapleton-court.html

"A previous article " Fair enough, But how come any article I have read today seem's to only mention Cannabis....

As to your second story, cannabis can have the same effect as alcohol, and even tiredness, on driving. They all affect your judgement. Even small amounts can make someone do stupid things that they wouldn't otherwise do. Misjudging distance and speed as well as poor reactions time and maneouver ability are all effects of each of the above. Tailgating and bad overtaking is not unusual for people under the influence.

They would want to be smoking some strong grade stuff for any of the above, The usual low grade hash that used to be sold here wouldn't be strong enough to make any driver erratic if smoked an hour before driving, This Gilson guy drove like a nutcase and deserved to be banned but the emphasis in this case on Cannabis/ Drug driving is taking the piss. He must have just been in a ferocious temper or has anger management problems or something. Driving without due care or attention.

MagicSean wrote: »

Perhaps your eyes are a little hazy.

Tell that to the little girl who found a junkie's needle on the steps today.