Gardaí struggling to pay bills - AGSI

fighterman

Bosco boy wrote: »

What do you work at yourself fighterman?

Irrelevant what I work at. I could be CEO of a global organisation ,an unemployed hobo or a detective sergeant in Harcourt St. I am merely passing comment on an anonymous message board on what I believe to be a huge sense of entitlement in press releases issued by public sector unions, which seem to betray a lack of understanding of basic economics.

molequidgallus

feelingstressed wrote: »

They might have buy to let properties and struggling to get tenants.
There would be quite a few gardai who are landlords

Yea & yet again another example of them breaking the law.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1211/1224285301808.html

You cant uphold the law by breaking it.

Its no example to be setting for the public.

molequidgallus

fighterman wrote: »

A ridiculous press release from the Guards that deserves ridicule.

120 gardai are living beyond their means. Boo hoo!

The sense of entitlement in the public sector unions is absolutely breathtaking.

That is exactly what has the coutry in the s#1t its in now, not only gardai living beyond their means, but more than 3/4 of the nation began to follow suit with the english & live beyond their means.

fighterman

molequidgallus wrote: »

That is exactly what has the coutry in the s#1t its in now, not only gardai living beyond their means, but more than 3/4 of the nation began to follow suit with the english & live beyond their means.

?

molequidgallus

the groutch wrote: »

like with the multiple thread about people being terrorised by gangs of youths in their estate, and the Gardai doing nothing about it?

They dont do anything regarding the youths, they just hammer the average Joe Soap tax payer which is outrageous. They really need to get their act together before people start policing themselves. Which would be far more effective than the "service" the gardai allegedly provide.

Bosco boy

fighterman wrote: »

Irrelevant what I work at. I could be CEO of a global organisation ,an unemployed hobo or a detective sergeant in Harcourt St. I am merely passing comment on an anonymous message board on what I believe to be a huge sense of entitlement in press releases issued by public sector unions, which seem to betray a lack of understanding of basic economics.

It is relevant, if your so righteous and perfect and going to preach put it out there for scrunity and let's compare.

MagicSean

molequidgallus wrote: »

Yea & yet again another example of them breaking the law.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1211/1224285301808.html

You cant uphold the law by breaking it.

Its no example to be setting for the public.

You linked a story about one Garda. What about the rest of "them"? Or this one equal fourteen thousand to you?

fighterman

Bosco boy wrote: »

It is relevant, if your so righteous and perfect and going to preach put it out there for scrunity and let's compare.

I don't believe it is relevant. Merely passing comment on a faceless internet message board. Why not take me up on the points I have made, namely that there is a huge sense of entitlement in press releases such as this and that these press releases let down the force as a whole, of which I reiterate there are many fine members.

Bosco boy

Read my previous posts and you'll get the answers, your job is relevant and your reluctance to state it speaks for itself.

MagicSean

fighterman wrote: »

I don't believe it is relevant. Merely passing comment on a faceless internet message board. Why not take me up on the points I have made, namely that there is a huge sense of entitlement in press releases such as this and that these press releases let down the force as a whole, of which I reiterate there are many fine members.

I agree with this to a certain extent. All the unions are guilty of this. They are all going on about what their members are entitled to when they should be looking at how to improve organisational efficiencies and promoting these changes.

geeky

Bosco boy wrote: »

It is relevant, if your so righteous and perfect and going to preach put it out there for scrunity and let's compare.

This guy merely said that the AGSI - like many unions, public and private - are coming off like they've a profound sense of entitlement. He wasn't setting himself - or his profession, whatever it is - out as 'righteous and perfect'.

fighterman

k_mac wrote: »

I agree with this to a certain extent. All the unions are guilty of this. They are all going on about what their members are entitled to when they should be looking at how to improve organisational efficiencies and promoting these changes.

Exactly. They need to turn the moan button off. Wish the newspapers would use some judgment and stop carrying these whiny press releases. Paper never refused ink, unfortunately.

fighterman

Bosco boy wrote: »

Read my previous posts and you'll get the answers, your job is relevant and your reluctance to state it speaks for itself.

I am a playboy millionaire who has public sector press releases faxed daily to my villa in Provence. Doesn't matter what I do, debate the points that are being made and stop personalising the debate.

Bosco boy

fighterman wrote: »

I am a playboy millionaire who has public sector press releases faxed daily to my villa in Provence. Doesn't matter what I do, debate the points that are being made and stop personalising the debate.

Good for you! Hope you have a non corrupt accountant for all that money, they are hard to come by, press release to follow by fax to your mansion

angelfire9

Bosco boy wrote: »

Good for you! Hope you have a non corrupt accountant for all that money, they are hard to come by, press release to follow by fax to your mansion

I'd do it

whiteonion

angelfire9 wrote: »

Standard pay down by over €100 a week in some cases
Overtime is extinct
That is more than a "little" cut

And we are not talking about a small percentage
There are LOTS of Gardai in a similar position
And we are not talking about guys with 2/3 houses they don't deserve sympathy
I'd be talking about guys with an average mortgage and average expenses that are literally living hand to mouth every week

Is it not their own fault for taking on too much debt? Surely no one could expect the good times to roll on forever?

angelfire9

OK i've been away for about 2 hours and there have been so many comments to reply to

fighterman wrote: »

The average weekly pay for a Garda was 837.87per week in 2008 it was 1,207.24 per week or 62776 per year (CSO).
As it's an average salary there are obviously guards on much less than this and guards on much more than this. Even after a reduction of about €5k this is still a very good salary would you not agree? Having your income 'decimated' is losing your job, not the reduction suffered by the guards.
Pay comes from Revenue, Revenue down, Guards salary down. What do the Gardai want? That they be exempt from cuts. Whiny press releases such as this let down the Guards as a force, of which there are many fine members.

Firstly, the average pay quoted above of €67k includes the salary of the Commissioner, 2 Deputy Commissioners, 12 Assistant Commissioners, numerous Chief Superintendents and Supers who earn WAY AND ABOVE what the average member at the rank of Garda or Garda Sergeant earns
Secondly, the figures in 2008 would include overtime which is virtually non existent any more
Thirdly, the pay rates in 2008 were slashed in the budget introduced in 2009

Budget 2010 cut the pay of public servants by 5% on the first €30,000 of income, 7.5% on the next €40,000 and 10% on the next €55,000. The table shows the reductions in income for members from the 1st of January 2010

So the average garda (rank of Garda or sergeant) is in not in fact earning anything close to €60k in 2011
The actual take home pay on a gross of €43,857 for a Garda with 11 years experience (down from €46,602 in 2008) is €29,396 per annum (after tax, PRSI, Pension, Pension Levy and USC) but before deductions like life cover, medical aid etc
FYI I lost my job in May of 2010 so I am well aware of the cut to pay that the unemployed have suffered!

danbohan wrote: »

I'd be talking about guys with an average mortgage and average expenses that are literally living hand to mouth every week
apparently so are 700k+ other people in Ireland according to credit union survey , that will only rise as Ireland has created one the highest personal debt ratios in the world ,what makes you think life should be different for gardai ?

What makes you think that ANYONE in that situation is not deserving of sympathy? Are the Gardai so hated in Ireland that everyone else deserves sympathy but Gardai do not?

molequidgallus wrote: »

Yea & yet again another example of them breaking the law.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1211/1224285301808.html
You cant uphold the law by breaking it.
Its no example to be setting for the public.

You obviously did not read the headline:
Ex-garda landlord warned of 'serious consequences'
He is not a serving member so i really don't care if he gets his ass thrown in jail to be honest!

molequidgallus wrote: »

They dont do anything regarding the youths, they just hammer the average Joe Soap tax payer which is outrageous. They really need to get their act together before people start policing themselves. Which would be far more effective than the "service" the gardai allegedly provide.

Firstly how do the gardai "Hammer the average joe soap tax payer"?

Secondly are you advocating vigilantism? :eek:

whiteonion wrote: »

Is it not their own fault for taking on too much debt? Surely no one could expect the good times to roll on forever?

Hello again whiteonion
Wasn't it you who said that getting married or having kids means over extending yourself and that married people and/or parents have only themselves to blame if they are in financial difficulty? :rolleyes:

You stated earlier I believe that you are on a gross salary of €25k per annum and can save €900 per month
You went on to say that you take one annual holiday
When asked what you do with the remainder of your savings you didn't answer
When asked if you have a mortgage you didn't answer
When given detailed financial info for my household and asked to recommend savings you didn't answer

Any of ye like to answer me now?

After 11 years service Gross Pay €46,602 (now €43857 p.a. following cuts in Dec 2010)
Net Pay per week €565.31
Source: http://www.gra.cc/net_reductions_2008_-2011.shtml

Deductions from payslip (at source) WEEKLY
GRA Subscription €7.05
Life Assurance/ critical illness/ Life Cover €13.50
Garda & Clare Division Benevolent funds €3.76
Medical Aid (Health insurance) €62.33

Which leaves a Net Pay per week on the payslip of €478.67

Assuming a 4 week month this is €1914.70 per month
Monthly expenses:

Mortgage 700
Petrol 240 (60 per week in and out of work for hubby)
Electricity 100
Gas/Heating 100
Food 500 (feeding 2 Adults 2 kids (1 of which is a baby)

Balance per month is down to €274.00
Which (again assuming a 4 week month) is 68.67 per week

Per Annum Equivalent (52 weeks) €3570.84

Now I already hear ye saying that we are doing well to have that kind of money spare every year with all the household bills paid
BUT
Then there comes these little expenses:
Per ANNUM:
House Insurance 400
Car Insurance 400
Car Tax 470
Car Maintenance (1 service) 200
Car Tyres (1 set per year) 280
Non reimbursable Medical Expenses 840 (THIS IS FOR MEDICATION ONLY & ASSUMES ZERO DOCTORS & HOSPITAL VISITS)

These add up to €2590 per year

Which leaves our household with a surplus income of €980.84 or WOW a whole €18.86 per week

Now there are the other things that have to be paid
Christmas Presents for the eldest child
Clothing & Footwear for 2 children
School books & uniforms
These come out of the children's allowance

So in actual fact we live from hand to mouth EVERY WEEK

hellboy99

angelfire9 wrote:

Petrol 240 (60 per week in and out of work for hubby)

Would you not be better off with a diesel car ?

angelfire9

hellboy99 wrote: »

Would you not be better off with a diesel car ?

Cannot afford to change the car
Unless we win the lotto

hellboy99

angelfire9 wrote: »

Cannot afford to change the car
Unless we win the lotto

We all wish that one Mind you there is probably more chance of winning the lotto than the cost of living coming down here.

angelfire9

hellboy99 wrote: »

We all wish that one Mind you there is probably more chance of winning the lotto than the cost of living coming down here.

True
But if we do win the lotto I have it all planned

molequidgallus

They'll just have[excuse the pun] bite the bullet like all the rest of the public sector workers. Or sell up and downgrade the house, car, whatever means necessary. This mortgage debt relief is a load of codswallop. An absolute joke, for all those who have made cut backs to maintain their mortgages etc & for those who just bought at the 'wrong time' or tried to exceed their means. Its ridiculous & will encourage more people to 'fall behind' on payments.

molequidgallus

angelfire9 wrote: »

Cannot afford to change the car
Unless we win the lotto

Well then, you should make room in your budget for €4 on a wednesday, €3 on friday & another €4 on saturday.

cordub

angelfire9 wrote: »

The life expectancy is likewise lower for fire fighters
What is your smart ass excuse for that one? :rolleyes:

and PRISON OFFICERS any other excuses???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

hellboy99

angelfire9 wrote: »

Cannot afford to change the car

I know money is tight but could you not downgrade and do a trade in ? €60 a week on fuel is a lot. You could save at least €300 a year on tax also and lower the cost of your yearly service, in total you could be looking at a yearly saving of up €1500.

tayto lover

I see Offy is back with a new user-name.

angelfire9

molequidgallus wrote: »

They'll just have[excuse the pun] bite the bullet like all the rest of the public sector workers. Or sell up and downgrade the house, car, whatever means necessary. This mortgage debt relief is a load of codswallop. An absolute joke, for all those who have made cut backs to maintain their mortgages etc & for those who just bought at the 'wrong time' or tried to exceed their means. Its ridiculous & will encourage more people to 'fall behind' on payments.

If my husband sells his car how does it get to work? Hitch-hiking?
There is no Luas or bus service around here :rolleyes:

Sell the house? In this market? Are you kidding me
We live in a 4 bed semi D in the middle of an estate we are lucky that our LTV ratio is not quite in the negatives YET

hellboy99 wrote: »

I know money is tight but could you not downgrade and do a trade in ? €60 a week on fuel is a lot. You could save at least €300 a year on tax also and lower the cost of your yearly service, in total you could be looking at a yearly saving of up €1500.

How does one downgrade from a 02 1.4L Corrolla when you have no money?

fighterman

angelfire your salary analysis omits the below. The rent and pension benefits are not insignificant. Public sector unions need to stop the monthly moanzone and start looking inwards at means of improving efficiencies. Because there are still massive inefficiences in public sector organisations, and these organisations would want to sort themselves out before the IMF do it for them, albeit in a much cruder and harsher fashion.



Gardaí

A bewildering array of allowances costing €215m last year – €300 per week per garda – as well as overtime costing €115m (€109 per week per member) brings an average garda's weekly income to €1,208.

Gardaí also get a rent allowance of €4,300 a year. This cost almost €60m last year.

While the Frontline Alliance makes much of the '24/7' service its members provide, they are well compensated for it. For example, gardaí are paid an unsocial hours allowance for working between 6pm and 8am, and an extra day's pay for working a Sunday. These cost almost €100m last year, yielding around €10,000 a year per garda.

A clerical allowance of over €5,000 a year is paid to gardaí confined to desk work, primarily in compensation for not being able to claim the above unsocial hours' allowances.

More minor allowances include a uniform maintenance allowance (€4.39 a week), plain clothes allowance (€12.21 a week), boot allowance (€2.93 a week), a cycle allowance (€2.53 a week) and a detective allowance (€28.19 a week). Juvenile liaison and community relations gardaí are paid an extra €28.19 a week.

Policing the Gaeltacht areas attracts an additional €3,500 allowance while those working on the islands get an extra €1,500 a year.

Allowances for extra duties or skill sets which cannot be encompassed within the hierarchical grade and pay structure of An Garda Síochána are also paid. Recipients include ministerial drivers, who get an extra 40% – around €19,000 a year.

Gardaí working in the change management unit get an allowance of €6,500 a year. In the air support unit they get €5,000, PSV (public service vehicle) inspectors get €5,000, crime scene examiners get €3,000, radio section officers get €5,300, technical bureau officers receive €5,400 after five years, water unit gardaí receive €5,050 and a welfare officer gets €7,800.

While secure pensions paying 50% of an index-linked salary for life is a major perk for all public servants, gardaí have the additional perk of being able to retire at 50 on a full pension – a benefit which Colm McCarthy estimated would cost 48% of a garda's salary to fund.

strobe

angelfire9 wrote: »

How does one downgrade from a 02 1.4L Corrolla when you have no money?

Sell it and buy an 00 1.0l Nissan Micra with the money?

MagicSean

Rent allowance, uniform allowance and the evening allowance net an extra 1.8k per year for a Garda. As already discussed this is in compensation for the regulations they must abide by.

Every job I know of pays a premium for working nights and Sundays. It's particularly necessary for Gardaí because they are required to work at half strength on Sundays due to an archaic roster system.

As to the other allowances. You can only really get one of them and all of them require extra training or qualification as well as extra responsability. this is no different to any other job. The figure given for the cost of Sunday allowance is ridiculous by the way.

I would welcome a chance to look at some calculations for the cost of the pension. I have seen many estimates but no actual workings and very little which includes the pension levy.