Navan Rail Line

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769347#Comment_121769347

In terms of Navan Town alignment, they could go with the old alignment and have two sets of platforms (Dublin and Drogheda) and use the area between these as a new central bus depot for Navan with local buses going through the town centre and surrounding estates. It's all warehouses right now.

(There are some houses along the road on the right of the green area, which I shouldn't have shaded, not suggesting they be knocked!)

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769347#Comment_121769347

Two stations planned. Navan central on the site of the original MGWR station and Navan north in the vicinity of the former Kings Court line.

The approach to Navan passes close to St Columbus estate and crosses bothe the trim road and carriage road. It has been preserved to a degree in fairness.

TheChrisD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121769347#Comment_121769347

Those houses wouldn't need to be knocked, but they will probably lose some back garden space.

The warehouses in the middle of town though, a bunch of those would have to go.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121768215#Comment_121768215

I made a comparison to the timeline for a rail reopening project which is ongoing right now. You are right that both projects are very different, Navan would require a hell of a lot more work, building from scratch, so would undoubtedly take longer. If you don't want to believe me, Grandeeod has described how light there is to work with and some of the difficulties involved.

Now that you are adding additional things which would take more time, you are essentially agreeing that the timeline as outlined isn't realistic. The original claim was that "From a standing start you are looking at 7 years to go from concept to open for service", that isn't realistic.

cgcsb

If the new planning bill is successful at reducing planning time it might be easier than retrofitting existing lines for dart in some ways because you're not maintaining a service while building or worrying about heritage structures or level crossings or utilities crossings. It's a different kettle of fish easier in some ways, harder in others.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121772854#Comment_121772854

the poster was talking about a standing start from after the route was chosen and cleared of everything in the way.

they never claimed it was the whole timeline of absolutely every single thing because that wasn't what was asked.

Grandeeod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773775#Comment_121773775

Have you ever been in Navan? Have you ever actually been anywhere near the alignment? Seriously. I've avoided so much online debate about this project for years and when I come back to it all I see is blind ignorance.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773775#Comment_121773775

So route chosen and cleared of everything in the way before any consultation or even preparation of the RO application (nevermind submitting the application or it being granted, which was included in the timeline outlined)? CPOs will be necessary which requires approval from ABP and you certainly can't clear anything before that. Keep dig if you want.

The government loves rail advocates like you. You do their propaganda work, insisting that projects like this and WRC are viable and going to happen which takes the focus off meaningful rail investment projects. Decades later and very little delivered in that time but lots of reports and announcements. Still rehashing old tropes about a culvert under the M3 as evidence that the project will happen eventually, just wait a little longer.

If we were serious about connecting Navan to the rail network, we'd forget about the old alignment entirely. It has been gone for a long time so of no use at all. A new alignment isn't going to be any more difficult/expensive to deliver (have to build from scratch either way) but could actually sever other passengers on the 30km journey to Navan.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773987#Comment_121773987

Not getting any sympathy from me dragging the "unviability" of the WRC into a discussion on Navan, and attacking a poster claiming they're pushing government propaganda....

On the Navan line, large sections have been cleared and subsumed into surrounding farms or built on (surely illegally?), but even larger sections are substantially still there and just need to be cleared to show its potential. The old alignment has the advantage of already being on a flat alignment. I'm not suggesting they don't consider new alignments, but let's be honest here..... they're just gonna go with the old alignment and use local buses and P&R to feed in passengers.

Note recent images of the WRC btw. Eamon said clear the line (Nov 30, 2023) and it started a week later, and now it's done:

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773987#Comment_121773987

I know it's old and out of date by now, but reading the old report into the Navan line is instructive. Even though they identified that a new alignment would be a good bit better, it still recommended going with the old alignment.

Irish politics can barely handle the Metrolink project, with it's clear cost benefit ratio, so a new alignment to Navan would be a huge step too far. Reopening an existing line, even if it requires much of the same work as designing and building a new alignment, is far more acceptable to the Irish political classes.

Not advocating either way here, but that's just my observations on all the previous rail projects that have been looked at over the years.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774195#Comment_121774195

Property is a bit of an unusual one. Anyone can claim "Adverse Possession" of any land, so long as they have been the sole maintainer of that land for 12 years. Is it illegal? No, not really. No one will go to jail for this, nor even face a fine if they're caught before the 12 years are up.

Once those 12 years are up, you can apply to transfer the deed into your name officially.

I'd wager that most of the route that has been seized has already passed the 12 year threshold at this stage.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774255#Comment_121774255

Thanks for that. No one should face any fines or jail for it, absolutely not. I wonder if any of those people have applied, successfully or not, to transfer ownership into their deed. I'd wager no. Based on this, CPOing these sections shouldn't be an issue at all - they built on an old rail line, what argument could they possibly stand on?!

They CPO land and houses all the time for motorway construction and that happens very quickly. I don't see why that can't or won't happen here, now that the government have shifted their focus to public transport.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774267#Comment_121774267

It kind of doesn't matter: IÉ have avoided dealing with it on very well preserved alignments like Youghal just to avoid the long drawn out legal battles. It's not about the chances that the occupiers will win, rather it's about delays to the project.

Glaceon

Do CIE even still own the land? This was a fairly early abandonment so it could have been sold on. The only early exception I know of was the Harcourt Street line, which was probably an admission that it could be needed again in future.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774391#Comment_121774391

That's where all the work the Greens have done in the background, with planning and legal changes, will start to pay off and enable a step change on planning and building these sorts of projects.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774460#Comment_121774460

It was closed in 1963, five years after the Harcourt Street line. The line to M3 Parkway doesn't appear to have had much or any issues around its reopening.

loco_scolo

The old alignment is to the right of the red lines below. These are screenshots of sections where the alignment is least visible.

It can't be denied that the alignment is gone in places, but it's mostly back gardens or side roads or farm use. The majority of the old alignment is still substantially available.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774460#Comment_121774460

North Kerry was also kept in CIE ownership after lifting, but I suspect this was all sold.

There are significant encroachments (as in built on or otherwise used, I presume they own the land) on the trackbed at some of the old stations, Kilmessan and Batterstown come to mind

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121773987#Comment_121773987

you're the only one doing the digging.

you misunderstood what the poster stated and i tried to explain it to you.

the reason the government just do reports and nothing else is because it's what people voted for, the government don't want to deliver and enough people don't want to deliver.

actually, the government dislike rail advocates like me, because we show them what they don't want to be true.

but the tide is turning and we are going to win while people like yourself who talk of supposed "meaningful rail investment" which really boils down to the little bits you agree with and nothing else, are going to become an irrelevance.

about time as if we were a grown up country, we would have quite a decent rail network and service by now.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774704#Comment_121774704

That's what I was thinking, the only two I knew that were kept were Harcourt Street and the North Kerry.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774460#Comment_121774460

Land ownership can be quite a fluid concept, over the long term at least. Unless you continue to exercise your ownership, you can lose it. The only way to fully determine ownership here would be to test it in the courts.

If someone can show that they have had possession of the land and displayed traits of ownership (for example using it in some way) for a substantial period of time, the courts could find in favour of them, even if no sale has taken place. Particularly if CIÉ can't show that they have used the land in any way for several decades. The "new owner" may also have subsequently sold the land and that been registered, then it becomes more difficult.

CIÉ are unlikely to take it to the courts unless they want to maintain the presence of doing something for several years without any danger of actually having to do something. They would have to challenge all other potential owners along the route which would take a long time and they are bound to lose on some, if not many.

If they want to actually build something, they'll just CPO whatever they want. In that case they should look for another route which minimises contentious issues like CPOing houses, splitting farms, etc. A new route could also see trains serve passengers on the way to/from Navan, unlike shadowing the old route.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776541#Comment_121776541

A new route has other engineering challenges. The old alignment exists because it was one of the best routes of its time. Everything from gradient to curves were considered.

The main advantage of pursuing the old alignment is that very little of this work needs redone - you just take advantage of the alignment work that was done before.

Coming up with a new rail alignment is a non-trivial task. It is not as simple as crayons on paper.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776541#Comment_121776541

Just to state again, I'm not strongly for or against any particular alignment, but I disagree with your comment.

The majority of the old alignment is still there. A new alignment would require significantly higher level of CPO, especially if the aim is to get closer to town centres such as Dunshaughlin. A new alignment is also going to split far more farms.

A new alignment is the best idea but only in an ideal world. The costs would spiral and the project would take significantly longer to deliver. I just don't see it happening.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776820#Comment_121776820

But the claim that the old alignment means that very little of this work needs redone is simply not true. There is very little alignment work done before to take advantage of. This is clear from Google Maps that significant sections no longer exist and Grandeeod has attested to that.

Deviation will be required around Drumree and Kilmessan given the level of development on or immediately adjacent to the old alignment. There are many houses either side of the M3 culvert so lots of opposition. There are houses on the southern approach to the Boyne bridge. Parts of the former alignment are now just open fields with no evidence that a railway ever existed there, you'll have the IFA fighting against splitting fields. Diverting around some or all of these could lead to significant offline sections.

There engineering challenges too. A sewer pipe exists under the alignment around Dunsany. Crossing the link road from M3 J8 into Navan will be difficult and extremely expensive given the high of the embankments either side of the road. It remains to be seen if the culvert is usable or if a diverted alignment could actually use it. These can be overcome but add to the cost.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777000#Comment_121777000

You can be sure the state have to CPO any sections of the old alignment which anybody claims ownership of, it won't be worth the years to court battles to assert ownership which they could well lose. Every adjacent land owner will get in on it. Between that and having to deviate at certain locations (particularly around Kilmessan and around the M3 crossing), they'll be CPOing practically everything anyway. A new alignment would have to largely follow the M3.

L1011

I'm certain the alignment was sold so they need to CPO the lot.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774748#Comment_121774748

Sorry no, the claim was that "From a standing start you are looking at 7 years to go from concept to open for service". Then you started adding things which would have to happen during the stages outlined in the timeline but claiming they are outside of the timeline. The 7 years just isn't realistic, I even referenced a current project with a much lower scope of works which will take the 2.5 years for construction which was stated for rebuilding the Navan line from scratch.

I've heard it all before, the reopening of these lines is always just around the corner. Don't bother with double-tracking existing operational lines, will just reopening old lines and rob Peter to pay Paul with the existing limited capacity. But you keep fighting the good fight, it'll be worth it eventually.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121777634#Comment_121777634

the standing start was after all of the challenges in relation to an alinement were dealt with and the alinement was ready for reconstruction.

the poster assumed we already knew that the alinement and it's issues whether it be use of the old one or a new one saught, would have to be sorted first.

spacetweek

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2024/08/17/extension-of-metrolink-to-donabate-may-be-looked-at-in-future-transport-review-says-nta/?

"Separately the NTA also said in another reply that it was currently anticipated that public consultation on route options for a rail line to Navan would take place in the latter part of 2025 or early 2026."

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122517065#Comment_122517065

Did they mention how many rounds of consultation we will see for this? Maybe a sensible seven?

beggars_bush

Shows how negligent CIE were when they allowed development along the old line