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Navan Rail Line

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,637 ✭✭✭ thomasj


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    How many hundred million are you spending for two trains an hour? That can't be justified.

    [Cough] WRC, [/cough]


  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭ Pixel Eater


    On the Navan rail line; I was wondering how feasible to build an elevated railway that would run down the middle and over the M3 motorway, at least part of the way? Would save a lot on CPOs.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    On the Navan rail line; I was wondering how feasible to build an elevated railway that would run down the middle and over the M3 motorway, at least part of the way? Would save a lot on CPOs.

    And lose all that saving in the huge engineering cost


  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ ncounties


    L1011 wrote: »
    And lose all that saving in the huge engineering cost

    <snip>


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    ncounties wrote: »
    <snip>

    Trolling on Twitter and *not here* I hope!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,076 ✭✭✭ GerardKeating


    On the Navan rail line; I was wondering how feasible to build an elevated railway that would run down the middle and over the M3 motorway, at least part of the way? Would save a lot on CPOs.

    Might have been feasible when building the motorway, but maybe not as a retro fit, bridges etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭ Pixel Eater


    L1011 wrote: »
    And lose all that saving in the huge engineering cost
    Might have been feasible when building the motorway, but maybe not as a retro fit, bridges etc.


    Fair enough, was just a query on my part. It's just with all those winding back roads and boreens as well as scattered bungalows everywhere, the route mightn't be that direct or straigforward.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Fair enough, was just a query on my part. It's just with all those winding back roads and boreens as well as scattered bungalows everywhere, the route mightn't be that direct or straigforward.

    The existing line is still largely intact and visible from google maps


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Last Stop wrote: »
    The existing line is still largely intact and visible from google maps

    If you try to follow the line on Google maps you will see multiple sections compromised around Navan and as you get further away, it disappears entirely in places. I don't think it is realistic to use the old alignment, not least because because it doesn't serve any population between Dunboyne and Navan.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭ spacetweek


    Fair enough, was just a query on my part. It's just with all those winding back roads and boreens as well as scattered bungalows everywhere, the route mightn't be that direct or straigforward.

    The plan is mostly to reinstate original line and much of this will parallel to the M3. Right next to it in fact.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    If you try to follow the line on Google maps you will see multiple sections compromised around Navan and as you get further away, it disappears entirely in places. I don't think it is realistic to use the old alignment, not least because because it doesn't serve any population between Dunboyne and Navan.

    I did say largely. Where as you say it disappears entirely, it is largely through fields which should be easy to reinstate.
    Yes there will be some spots where either the alignment will have to change or there will be CPO but that’s part and parcel of a large infrastructure project.
    Crucially, the bridge over the Boyne is still intact at Bective which if reused save millions.
    The old alignment passes within 2.5km of Dunshaughlin and right through Kilmessan. What other towns or population hubs are there between Dunboyne and Navan??


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Last Stop wrote: »
    I did say largely. Where as you say it disappears entirely, it is largely through fields which should be easy to reinstate.
    Yes there will be some spots where either the alignment will have to change or there will be CPO but that’s part and parcel of a large infrastructure project.
    Crucially, the bridge over the Boyne is still intact at Bective which if reused save millions.
    The old alignment passes within 2.5km of Dunshaughlin and right through Kilmessan. What other towns or population hubs are there between Dunboyne and Navan??

    What is crucial about a Victorian bridge which has been unmaintained for over half a century and isn't wide enough for two tracks? It will still cost millions to bring that bridge back into use and it would probably be cheaper just to build a new bridge. The old alignment crosses at least a dozen roads so for any sort of a decent service, there are a significant number of new bridges which would have to be built. Then of course there is the M3 itself and the dual carriageway road from M3 J8 into Navan which would have to be crossed which will require major structures. There must be a couple of hundred houses on or adjacent to the line who would all fight tooth and nail against it and farmers wont be happy with their lands being divided (which they are not along most of the route, despite the railway having once gone through)

    The landtake needed for all that would be required would be such that you may as well just buy a new alignment. Following the M3 avoids most of the problems, very few houses along it, minimal road crossings and those that there are are more manageable, farms already divided, avoid crossing the Boyne, etc. Cross to the northern side of the M3 after the toll and hug it until you get to Dunshaughlin where it could move more towards the town to serve it and its significant population. Follow the M3 again until Gallows Cross for a P&R. Then cut across to join the Drogheda line to take the existing line into Navan, with a station serving the Johnstown/Kentstown Road area on the way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    What is crucial about a Victorian bridge which has been unmaintained for over half a century and isn't wide enough for two tracks? It will still cost millions to bring that bridge back into use and it would probably be cheaper just to build a new bridge.

    They said the exact same thing about the nine arches bridge on the Luas green line and when they went to inspect it, there wasn’t a thing wrong with it.
    The old alignment crosses at least a dozen roads so for any sort of a decent service, there are a significant number of new bridges which would have to be built. Then of course there is the M3 itself and the dual carriageway road from M3 J8 into Navan which would have to be crossed which will require major structures.
    Luckily they allowed for a tunnel under the M3 so isn’t it? Again saving millions
    There must be a couple of hundred houses on or adjacent to the line who would all fight tooth and nail against it and farmers wont be happy with their lands being divided (which they are not along most of the route, despite the railway having once gone through)

    You’re either exaggerating or contradicting your previous argument that the alignment doesn’t serve the population. Which is it??
    The landtake needed for all that would be required would be such that you may as well just buy a new alignment. Following the M3 avoids most of the problems, very few houses along it, minimal road crossings and those that there are are more manageable, farms already divided, avoid crossing the Boyne, etc. Cross to the northern side of the M3 after the toll and hug it until you get to Dunshaughlin where it could move more towards the town to serve it and its significant population. Follow the M3 again until Gallows Cross for a P&R. Then cut across to join the Drogheda line to take the existing line into Navan, with a station serving the Johnstown/Kentstown Road area on the way.

    Running a rail line beside a motorway would make the bridge crossing even more complex given the level differences and the existing structures. Add in the fact you clearly haven’t looked at the alignment parallel to the M3 as it cuts through a number of farm holdings, severs a number of roads, crosses a graveyard and swathes of forestry.

    Then you’ve ignored the fact that the Drogheda line is facing the wrong direction making a connection difficult and is single track including over the Boyne completely undermining your justification


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,204 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Last Stop wrote: »
    They said the exact same thing about the nine arches bridge on the Luas green line and when they went to inspect it, there wasn’t a thing wrong with it.

    The nine arches bridge is wider and accommodates a narrower gauge light rail system.
    Luckily they allowed for a tunnel under the M3 so isn’t it? Again saving millions

    There is no tunnel where the M3 crosses the old line beside Navan. It also then needs to cross another dual carriageway less than 2km closer to Navan. Nothing luck about that.
    You’re either exaggerating or contradicting your previous argument that the alignment doesn’t serve the population. Which is it??

    There are many houses along the 30km route, the majority of which are a long way away from any potential station. It is questionable if there is sufficient population at any point on the old line east of Navan to justify stopping a train. Those houses would have trains wizzing past them but they would not be served by the line. These are a hindrance to the cause, not a help. There is no significant population along the way, just a small number of rural dwellers who will claim they are being sacrificed so Dubs can by cheaper houses in Navan.
    Running a rail line beside a motorway would make the bridge crossing even more complex given the level differences and the existing structures. Add in the fact you clearly haven’t looked at the alignment parallel to the M3 as it cuts through a number of farm holdings, severs a number of roads, crosses a graveyard and swathes of forestry.

    Then you’ve ignored the fact that the Drogheda line is facing the wrong direction making a connection difficult and is single track including over the Boyne completely undermining your justification
    My suggested route avoids motorway junctions (moving in towards Dunshaughlin at J6). Any road crossings are already grade separated by to the motorway, adjustments would be needed but far less work than eliminating all the at grade road crossings on the old alignment. Kilmessan and Drumree both have two road crossings in a short distance and multiple houses and buildings, you would probably have to build 1km of elevated track to through each which wouldn't go down well.

    How is the the Drogheda line is facing the wrong direction? It may be single track now but was once double and the full trackbed remains available to reinstate double. It also actually goes into Navan and to where the station was. The old alignment in the town is gone and ain't coming back, see here;

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6457934,-6.684543,680m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en


  • Registered Users Posts: 920 Last Stop


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The nine arches bridge is wider and accommodates a narrower gauge light rail system.

    How do you know that it’s wider? You’re also now shifting the goalposts on the argument that the bridge wasn’t maintained.
    There is no tunnel where the M3 crosses the old line beside Navan. It also then needs to cross another dual carriageway less than 2km closer to Navan. Nothing luck about that.

    There clearly is some sort of structure under the road along the alignment.
    https://goo.gl/maps/Y3dSFvRLnNjWBS14A
    There are many houses along the 30km route, the majority of which are a long way away from any potential station. It is questionable if there is sufficient population at any point on the old line east of Navan to justify stopping a train. Those houses would have trains wizzing past them but they would not be served by the line. These are a hindrance to the cause, not a help. There is no significant population along the way, just a small number of rural dwellers who will claim they are being sacrificed so Dubs can by cheaper houses in Navan.

    Many or hundreds?? Of course there is bound to be houses near the route, yours is no different. What population does your route serve that wouldn’t be served by the old alignment?

    My suggested route avoids motorway junctions (moving in towards Dunshaughlin at J6). Any road crossings are already grade separated by to the motorway, adjustments would be needed but far less work than eliminating all the at grade road crossings on the old alignment. Kilmessan and Drumree both have two road crossings in a short distance and multiple houses and buildings, you would probably have to build 1km of elevated track to through each which wouldn't go down well.
    To build a railway line parallel to the motorway you’d either have to rebuild the existing motorway overbridges or push the alignment away from the motorway leading to land severance and a lot of wasted land between the railway and motorway.
    How is the the Drogheda line is facing the wrong direction? It may be single track now but was once double and the full trackbed remains available to reinstate double. It also actually goes into Navan and to where the station was. The old alignment in the town is gone and ain't coming back, see here;

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6457934,-6.684543,680m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

    The Drogheda line leaves Navan in a NE direction and you want to connect to it from a SW direction. Hardly easy.

    How do you know the bridge is wide enough. If this bridge is wide enough, the one on the old alignment might be too?

    There’s no reason why a new station couldn’t be built just south of where the old alignment disappears in Navan. If the railway gets built, there’s going to be a lot of future growth in that direction anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭ AAAAAAAAA


    Last Stop wrote: »
    There clearly is some sort of structure under the road along the alignment.
    https://goo.gl/maps/Y3dSFvRLnNjWBS14A

    I thought that was just a concrete barrier erected to block off the previous local access road, but you appear to be right! They seem to have built some manner of concrete box under the motorway, whether a water culvert or for a future railway, but then proceeded to unceremoniously fill it in.

    https://imgur.com/a/RRGajIa

    Edit: Better detail
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58482928&postcount=151


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,778 ✭✭✭ goingnowhere


    505622.JPG

    The Boyne bridge is certainly sufficient for two tracks. It was built for two


  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ ncounties


    Movement again on this. Meath County Council sharing surveys related to the reopening on all social media platforms. Note, their Facebook page state that if the decision was made to progress, it could be operational by 2026:

    https://twitter.com/meathcoco/status/1357026235306692609?s=20


  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    I hope this is tied in with the current design phase of the electrification of the Dunboyne line.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭ MightyMunster


    I was hoping the increased capacity on the Dunboyne line (max 4per hour) is sufficient to include future trains to Navan, in terms of station design in docklands etc...and not requiring a massive rework of relatively new tracks etc ..



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Extra trains would be required to maintain 4tph to begin with due to the increased runtimes, its unlikely they'd go beyond that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭ paul71


    That is much wider than the bridges on the currently used 2 track system on the Maynooth line.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Vicxas


    Will this be part of the NDP due to be published today, or separate?



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,201 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    Not clear. The review of the GDA Transport Strategy has to make a case for it first I think but open to correction on that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach



    It was designed to take dual line of 'DW&WR' (later D&SER) at Irish gauge of 1,600 mm (5 ft 3 in), the Luas runs on standard gauge in comparison (1,435 mm -- 4 ft 8.5 in) -- the Navan branch of the MG&WR was designed and built as single track in comparison.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,334 ✭✭✭✭ Vicxas


    People going nuts saying it could take up to 15 years before its done. Surely not?



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    I'd be pretty surprised if it was done before 2032, to be honest. NTA and TII seem to be struggling with the workload of Dart+ projects, and Metrolink, so I'd imagine that they'd want most of that to be completed before even properly looking at Navan. D+West should (fingers crossed) be finished around 2025/26, so that'd be the earliest that they'd look in my opinion.


    Of course, I'd prefer if they did it as part of D+West, but that ship has sailed already.



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