Navan Rail Line

CrabRevolution

yannakis wrote: »

Combined population is about double that to be frank.

In the last census Ashbourne was ~15k, Ratoath ~12k, and Navan ~40k

Not sure where you're getting those figures. Ratoath is 9.5K, Ashbourne is 12.6K and Navan is 30K as per the 2016 census.

Pete_Cavan

yannakis wrote: »

Combined population is about double that to be frank.

In the last census Ashbourne was ~15k, Ratoath ~12k, and Navan ~40k

The three being referred to are Ashbourne, Ratoath and Trim.

LXFlyer

roadmaster wrote: »

If the NX and 109x went in to the parkway it would help also

Given that the M3 services are already crammed as they progress further along the line, all that would do would mean a lot more people wouldn’t be able to get on the trains.

Some of you need to realise - the commuter rail network is at breaking point already at peak times. There isn’t any additional capacity until additional rolling stock and additional infrastructure is put in place.

ohographite

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Spurs are a terrible idea, they aare expensive, require additional rolling stock and it would just mean that each town has an inadequate service frequency. P&Rs and/or feeder buses are much more efficient and cost effective. Adding up the population of the three towns still gives a relatively small population, each is quite small in reality.

I thought the desired frequency of trains from Clonsilla to the city centre was 8 trains an hour after the DART expansion program.
I'm assuming that's 4 trains an hour to Maynooth, and 4 trains an hour to M3 Parkway.
If a spur was built through Rathoath to Ashbourne, 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Ashbourne, and the other 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Navan.
Ashbourne and Rathoath have a combined population of over 20, 000.
I'd say 2 trains an hour to Navan, and 2 trains an hour to Ashbourne via Rathoath, are both adequate frequencies.

GooglePlus

roadmaster wrote: »

If the NX and 109x went in to the parkway it would help also

The NX doesn't need another stop, it's already slow enough getting up to Dublin.

Pete_Cavan

ohographite wrote: »

I thought the desired frequency of trains from Clonsilla to the city centre was 8 trains an hour after the DART expansion program.
I'm assuming that's 4 trains an hour to Maynooth, and 4 trains an hour to M3 Parkway.
If a spur was built through Rathoath to Ashbourne, 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Ashbourne, and the other 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Navan.
Ashbourne and Rathoath have a combined population of over 20, 000.
I'd say 2 trains an hour to Navan, and 2 trains an hour to Ashbourne via Rathoath, are both adequate frequencies.

How many hundred million are you spending for two trains an hour? That can't be justified.

Ashbourne has a direct motorway to Dublin and buses on it will be far more attractive in terms of frequency, journey time and comfort than a train that heads away from Dublin beforejjoining a congested line into the city where it gets swamped with passengers and your day is screwed if you miss your train.

machaseh

ohographite wrote: »

I thought the desired frequency of trains from Clonsilla to the city centre was 8 trains an hour after the DART expansion program.
I'm assuming that's 4 trains an hour to Maynooth, and 4 trains an hour to M3 Parkway.
If a spur was built through Rathoath to Ashbourne, 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Ashbourne, and the other 2 trains an hour could continue from M3 Parkway to Navan.
Ashbourne and Rathoath have a combined population of over 20, 000.
I'd say 2 trains an hour to Navan, and 2 trains an hour to Ashbourne via Rathoath, are both adequate frequencies.

Much better to have 4 trains an hour to the much larger city of Navan. Ashbourne can be served with a much better bus service, preferably one run by dublin bus so that cheap leap card fares can be used.

GeneHunt

machaseh wrote: »

Much better to have 4 trains an hour to the much larger city of Navan. Ashbourne can be served with a much better bus service, preferably one run by dublin bus so that cheap leap card fares can be used.

Ah come on, Navan is not a city.

Ashbourne and Ratoath have a pretty good bus services compared to Dunshaughlin or Navan. I think getting a rail-line to Navan is a dream, which could happen, but thinking of a spur line to Ashbourne or Trim is stretching it. :rolleyes:

I think if money was to be thrown at this problem of services to Navan, it really should be a quality bus service.

ohographite

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How many hundred million are you spending for two trains an hour? That can't be justified.

Ashbourne has a direct motorway to Dublin and buses on it will be far more attractive in terms of frequency, journey time and comfort than a train that heads away from Dublin beforejjoining a congested line into the city where it gets swamped with passengers and your day is screwed if you miss your train.

Under what I've suggested, the line into the city would not become more congested than what is already planned. The DART expansion program has 4 trains an hour to M3 Parkway. I'm suggesting that 2 of those can continue to Ashbourne via Rathoath, and the other 2 to Navan, so these conditions cannot cause more congestion between clonsilla and the city centre than the DART expansion program.
Ashbourne and Rathoath have a combined population of 22,000 so it's not really far behind Navan's population of 30,000.

ohographite

machaseh wrote: »

Much better to have 4 trains an hour to the much larger city of Navan. Ashbourne can be served with a much better bus service, preferably one run by dublin bus so that cheap leap card fares can be used.

Drogheda is bigger than Navan, and I wouldn't think 4 trains an hour from Drogheda to Dublin is really necessary.

AngryLips

ohographite wrote: »

Drogheda is bigger than Navan, and I wouldn't think 4 trains an hour from Drogheda to Dublin is really necessary.

Isn't it going to be a ten minute frequency when they extend dart?

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Isn't it going to be a ten minute frequency when they extend dart?

Not all the way to Drogheda no.

There will be DARTs terminating at different locations with a 10 minute frequency closer to Dublin.

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

Not all the way to Drogheda no.

There will be DARTs terminating at different locations with a 10 minute frequency closer to Dublin.

Where did you see this? Dart means frequent, stopper service so one would think that the Northern Line would see an improvement in the existing frequency.

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

Where did you see this? Dart means frequent, stopper service so one would think that the Northern Line would see an improvement in the existing frequency.

It will have to be a mix of stopping services to somewhere like Malahide or maybe Donabate, and then a limited stop service to that location which would then serve the outer stations from there to Drogheda.

The notion that places like Balbriggan and Drogheda are going to be served by a DART train that stops at every station from Connolly is nonsense as it would mean far longer journey times for anyone at outer suburban stations.

There also still have to be paths for at least one Enterprise per hour and also Dundalk commuter services - there is no way that they and a 10 minute service to and from Drogheda are compatible.

I am talking here about the all-day frequency here. Obviously at peak there will be more services, but it’s going to be challenging regardless.

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

It will have to be a mix of stopping services to somewhere like Malahide or maybe Donabate, and then a limited stop service to that location which would then serve the outer stations from there to Drogheda.

The notion that places like Balbriggan and Drogheda are going to be served by a DART train that stops at every station from Connolly is nonsense as it would mean far longer journey times for anyone at outer suburban stations.

There also still have to be paths for at least one Enterprise per hour and also Dundalk commuter services - there is no way that they and a 10 minute service to and from Drogheda are compatible isn’t realistic.

Well at the moment a station like Balbriggan has approx. 5 trains per hour, all about 10 - 15 mins apart stopping at all stations to Malahide (with 2/3 also stopping at Portmarnock and Clongriffin). Thereafter their average speed is virtually identical with stopping Dart services to Connolly. So there would be no change in journey time for those passengers.

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

Well at the moment a station like Balbriggan has approx. 5 trains per hour, all about 10 - 15 mins apart stopping at all stations to Malahide (with 2/3 also stopping at Portmarnock and Clongriffin). Thereafter their average speed is virtually identical with stopping Dart services to Connolly. So there would be no change in journey time for those passengers.

The recent introduction of the 10-minute DART service means that the outer suburban trains have all been decelerated. For the railway to remain competitive journey time improvements need to be delivered. Matthews frequently outperform the railway. That needs to change.

You also have to have trains starting at different points along the line to deliver the capacity at all the stations along it.

Remember too, that in all likelihood the Howth branch will have to become a shuttle - that’s going to have capacity implications too.

Balbriggan has typically one-two trains per hour off-peak and a maximum of four per hour at peak FYI.

donvito99

LXFlyer wrote: »

The recent introduction of the 10-minute DART service means that the outer suburban trains have all been decelerated. For the railway to remain competitive journey time improvements need to be delivered. Matthews frequently outperform the railway. That needs to change.

You also have to have trains starting at different points along the line to deliver the capacity at all the stations along it.

Remember too, that in all likelihood the Howth branch will have to become a shuttle - that’s going to have capacity implications too.

Balbriggan has typically one-two trains per hour off-peak and a maximum of four per hour at peak FYI.

Well if Matthews is faster then people can use that. Ultimately, the railway is now moving more people for a slightly longer journey time.

If you take the 06.59 as the 07.00, there are 5 trains per hour (0700, 0712, 0721, 0737, 0754).

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

Well if Matthews is faster then people can use that. Ultimately, the railway is now moving more people for a slightly longer journey time.

If you take the 06.59 as the 07.00, there are 5 trains per hour (0700, 0712, 0721, 0737, 0754).

Well I think if you expect the service to be an all stations service from Drogheda every 10 mins all day you’re going to be disappointed.

The service pattern won’t be that.

It will be a mix of stoppers on the inner section of the line, and semi-fasts, Dundalks and Belfast on the outer.

machaseh

For the northern line, what would make sense to me would be:

3x per hour: Howth - Conolly all stops.
3x-4x per hour: Drogheda - Howth Junction all stops, then non-stop to Conolly
1x to 2x per hour: Belfast/Dundalk inter city train - Conolly
From conolly trains can terminate at Gd Canal Dock, Bray or Greystones as convenient.

People who want to go from north of howth junction to one of the smaller stations (such as raheny) can change at howth junction.

Having a howth - Howth junction shuttle train seems exceedingly useless to me. Why would anyone use that if they can just use the 31 bus.

Ideally more passing tracks should be constructed between howth junction and Conolly so that fast trains can overtake slow trains.

thomasj

My guess as to what will happen is it will be a gradual change and Malahide DARTs will be extended to Skerries/Balbriggan

we'll probably see a rebalancing of services with Howth going to Greystones and Skerries going to Bray with Drogheda/Dundalk staying as is in the short term.

marieholmfan

What about a line Enfield - Trim - Navan - Drogheda
Would allow the 'branch line' to go in two directions. Enfield is the same distance as Drogheda from Navan.

ncounties

We will ensure the extension of the Luas to Finglas is considered within that process, as well as extensions to Poolbeg, Bray and Lucan and the rail link into Navan.

Taken from the FG 2020 Election Manifesto.

marno21

wrote:

Namedropping Finglas specifically there given their outside chance of retaining the seat there (Noel Rock).

AngryLips

So basically, we will think about these projects some more...?

ncounties

AngryLips wrote: »

So basically, we will think about these projects some more...?

The important thing is that it's not been forgotten.

quidel

If there are any significant proposals or news from the Meath On Track meeting tonight in Navan, please post thanks.

GeneHunt

This meeting should be interesting, just to see who's there and what they are promising this time.

So far, I've seen Regina Doherty (Fine Gael) leaflets mention the proposed rail line to Navan, and Darren O'Rourke (Sinn Féin) Posters supporting the proposed rail line to Navan & Peadar Tóibín (Aontú) is all over the Facebook page "Meath on Track"

I wonder is it too toxic for Thomas Byrne (Fianna Fáil) to get involved, as it was Noel Dempsey's promises to open the tracks a few years ago!

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1223190487177277440

This is just nuts. I really don't know how people in Navan cope with that commute, they should be up in arms protesting about this rail line. And we all know they'll put another lane on the motorway before opening the rail line. Also does Dublin have the capacity to take in more trains? The whole system is a mess.

L1011

MLMD mentioned this in the debate last night, unprompted. Well, unprompted by the moderators or other panelists - but probably prompted by realising Toibin was pushing it now!

Stroke Politics

Peadars promised there’s going to be a train for everyone! As long as you’re Irish, Catholic, have two married parents and use the Billings Method....