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Navan Rail Line

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Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    The 25" maps would suggest that the Boyne bridge was built to be dual track capable. Also, but well south of the Boyne bridge, the branch was dual track from Clonsilla to Drumree rather than being single the entire way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    I'd anticipate bus being the preferred option for serving the Navan corridor until 2040 at least.

    Fairly sure Option A for the rail corridor didn't serve Dunshaughlin (west of M3) and alot of Navan suburbs are south of the station. It's a pretty quick drive to Dublin so additional Demand Management would be needed to convince any of these people not to use cars. There's no political will for tolling roads further in the short/medium term. The bus could be more door to door with comparative journey times following M3 bus priority upgrades. This likely results in low enough benefits for the investment.

    Option B served Dunshaughlin but resulted in several expensive infrastructure road crossings; so very high cost for the benefits incurred.

    So while there may be merit in the rail link, i'd expect it to be way down the list of priorities due to the government's cost benefit analysis approach to appraisal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    If it is to happen how far along the M3 would the railway line have to run before its gradiat would be sufficent for a train to cross the motorway?



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    If it followed the old route out to Navan then it'd have plenty of room. It'd end up crossing the M3 around junction 8. As much as I'd like a new route that was closer to new population centres, we don't really do that in Ireland, at all. Reminds me of the old joke about the American visiting the country, and being astonished that the train station was so far outside the town that he needed a taxi to get to his hotel. He asks the Taxi driver "why do you guys build your stations so far away from the town?", and the taxi driver responds "Well, don't know how you do it in the US, but in Ireland, we like to build our train stations near the train tracks."

    (Sorry for the terrible joke, I know, it's really terrible.)


    This one wouldn't be completely new though, although I get what you're saying.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    There's an impingement by an R road coming off the M3 where there is a box under the road for the railway line that is massively below the actual line. Can't remember how far along this is though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    The old alignment is gone in for large chunks of it that there is little benefit in trying to reinstate it. Going closer to Dunshaughlin would be better, at least it would serve people.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭ CatInABox


    You can follow it on Google maps a fair bit, and a good chunk of it is there. I assume that they'll have someone take a look at all the potential routes, and the eventual decision will come down to whether it's economical better to reuse a load of the existing route, overcoming the various issues, or whether it's better to go with a brand new route, which would probably have several issues as well, albeit of a different type.

    Agree that it would be great to have it closer to Dunshaughlin, but where do you put it? Could it fit in between the M3 and Dunshaughlin, or would you send it around to the east? That'd require a load more bridges for all the roads, or you'd risk cutting off and constraining the town with the M3 and the rail line on both sides.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    You can make out where a fair bit of the line was on Google Maps, thats not really the same as it still being there. Most of the land would still have to be CPOed, including houses, and the level of work required would be the same as building elsewhere.

    A new line would have to be between Dunshaughlin and the M3.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Few settlements in the USA predate the invention of rail transport. Almost every town in Ireland does



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    NTA commissioned a study on it almost a year ago. It was looking at similar route options to those in the 2009 study. Search 'navan rail line feasibility 2009' and you can see images with the options being considered.

    An issue that will emerge is capacity for additional services towards the city centre. There's limited train paths by the time DART+, additional Longford commuter and Sligo trains are all in and potentially mixing with Phoenix Park Tunnel services as you get to city centre stations.

    So Navan services would really need to be electrified or Battery electric (if feasible), acting as an extension of M3 Parkway services; unless there is an appetite to make further capacity enhancements in the city centre above DART+ current proposals. Would a service frequency of 20min be enough for Navan to make it attractive? M3 Parkway frequency is 10min so you could start a few at Navan.

    I've conveniently ignored journey times and passenger capacity.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    If it doesn't serve Dunshaughlin or another urban centre, we may as well not bother with planning because it won't be built. Using some of the old alignment is grand especially north of Dunsany but we shouldn't let the Victorian alignment severely limit the catchment of a future line. If I remember correctly, the only village of note between the M3 Parkway and Navan on the old line is Kilmessan which just isn't good enough.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    If there's a 10 minute frequency at M3 then surely that capacity can simply be extended to Navan, assuming enough rolling stock is bought to run on it. This is a very good frequency for a commuter service to an exurb like Navan. Journey times would probably be more than an hour to central stations so better than car or bus at the moment and most importantly reliable. At the minute we don't have DART crossing rural areas to get to towns, so that'll be novelty feature when travelling to Maynooth on the first DART+


    Although with bus connects cbc 5 to blanchardstown and some future orbital bus priority in phibsboro the speed and capacity of commuter bus services will also be growing, that could sink any cost benefit analysis if we keep doing cost benefit in the same mid-20th century thinking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    Are we sure about 10 min frequency to M3 Parkway? I thought it was 10 mins from Clonsilla east, made up of 20 min frequency to each Maynooth and M3.

    In any case, anywhere outside of the current DART network, and then M3 PW/Maynooth/Hazelhatch post DART+, won't be operating DART type services stopping at every stop, the journey time would be unacceptable. Once you go beyond a certainpoint you need limited stop services reduced frequency.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,538 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Won't be much time to be made up slotting in at most 9 minutes behind a stopper - and there's really no space for overtaking tracks of a useful length either; or station passing loops.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Clonsilla eastwards is to be 15 trains per hour according to the consultation or every 4 minutes. So if that's true every 10 mins to on each branch is possible. This would be a super service for such a distant part of a commuter rail network, you wouldn't get that in many .ainland Europe cities. DART type trains can travel at 110kmh so the large gap between towns north of Dunboyne wouldn't be too problematic.

    Is there a need to bring this level of service to Navan though? Would it be better to build another branch to Ashbourne. Or forget it and invest the money elsewhere. A similar length of track could provide a new intercity line between Drogheda and the city centre via the airport whoch would speed up Dublin-Belfast, bring mainline rail to the airport and allow the coastal DART to operate freely at any frequency.



  • Registered Users Posts: 31 n1ey


    Most of the building actually came after the towns were there. Locales in Utah or Colorado sprung to existence after their railroad came.

    The railroads actually suffered from poor engineering and politics. They were wedged between investors from certain towns, analysis of potential business,and building costs. It wasn't that easy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    The DART+ service plan was provided as part of a consultation, can't remember which. It showed 6 services on the M3 Parkway branch, subject to demand.

    The issue NTA will be facing is justifying a service using the appraisal tools available. From a cost benefit perspective, N3/M3 bus priority improvements will arguably provide a more cost effective solution for public transport. That's subjective if you don't believe bus is attractive enough from a behavioural aspect to encourage modal shift.

    Navan is not well disposed to generating rail demand either. Meath would have radically alter their approach to town planning to get a 10min rail service.



  • Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭ Bsharp


    I'd like to see a more integrated approach to it all.

    NTA and Meath CC to sit down and map out what Navan and Dunshaughlin would need to look like to support a reasonably sustainable rail service (some subvention). The towns would look a lot more European. Would existing residents support that increase in density?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭ AngryLips


    Wasn't there something in the recent climate bill about how projects are costed to give greater weighting to future carbon emissions? Surely the previous CBAs done on this line would not produce the same results as any future CBA? Especially vis-a-vis other alternatives....



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,211 ✭✭✭ Pete_Cavan


    It should be possible to get in a third track around Clonsilla station. West of the station there is already a siding. A new station could be built on the other side of the road with platforms setback enough for three tracks, and then extend that up to the Dr Troy Bridge where the extra few metres could be taken from the adjoining fields (which are due for redevelopment anyway). That would give about 2km of three track, would that be enough for an outer commuter train to overtake a DART which stops at Clonsilla? It would have to be done now as part of DART+ West with signaling etc. designed in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    Have they all lost the plot, they are actually reviewing the kingscourt rail line wasting money that could be spent on improving the roads in the region so you can have a good bus service instead

    https://fb.watch/bEF3eV6yLX/



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,204 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    perhapse sorting the roads to a good standard for a good bus service might probably ironically cost more then reinstating the rail ink which seems easy enough to reinstate not that it will be done.

    certainly as part of the navan rail link and interworked with it it wouldn't be the worst reopening in the world but nothing will come of it so there is nothing for you to worry about.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    Well considering the Nobber section is now a busy greenway that the locals are happy with it may not be as easy to reopen as you think



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,204 ✭✭✭✭ end of the road


    of course it still would be easy to do in the unlikely event the line was reopened.

    greenways can be moved, especially tiny ones like this one.

    as i said, it's not going to happen so you have nothing to worry about.

    julian the journalist asange is innocent, free julian the journalist.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Peregrine


    This is a standard "Of course I'll look into it. Go away now." response. Doesn't mean anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 956 ✭✭✭ Rulmeq


    Well considering the Nobber section is now a busy greenway that the locals are happy with it may not be as easy to reopen as you think

    Oh, no, and we all know that it's utterly impossible for Ireland to lay track anywhere that wasn't specifically occupied by track during the Victorian era, I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal or unconstitutional or something.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭ roadmaster


    Well that seams to be the trail of taught in this country



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