Navan Rail Line

coolmangg

I have created a map of where I think the Navan Rail Line should go!
I cannot understand why the planners insist on passing to the west of Dunshaughlin when if they go to the east they can pick up additional passengers from Ratoath / Ashbourne thus increasing revenue/viability.

Also an easterly approach to Navan will allow them to use the existing Boyne bridge viaduct, and give access to a central station there.

See my map here.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=53.547652,-6.459274&spn=0.390839,0.837021&z=11

Victor

I'm only seeing a plain google map.

The problem with crossing the M3 is that it will add hugely tot he cost, as will sending it through the hills around Skreen. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,695788,760511,4,1

dowlingm

I'd like to see consideration of an incremental approach - a phase 2A to Dunshaughlin or Kilmessan with crossing the Boyne left to phase 2B. In the short term this could be single and loop like the Midleton spur.

If it insisted on that Navan be part of the next phase it may not happen for a decade or more unless IE is allowed to count operating efficiencies such as basing Navan trains in Drogheda Depot and deadheading them over the Slane line rather than dispatching them from Connolly.

BrianD

It makes no odds if it goes west or east. The additional time taken by road to travel to a point west of Dunshaughlin is immaterial.

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

If it insisted on that Navan be part of the next phase it may not happen for a decade or more unless IE is allowed to count operating efficiencies such as basing Navan trains in Drogheda Depot and deadheading them over the Slane line rather than dispatching them from Connolly.

They are proposing to stable a number of trains at Navan. These can be swapped during the day with trains from Drogheda. they only need to go "home" every few days.

BrianD wrote: »

It makes no odds if it goes west or east. The additional time taken by road to travel to a point west of Dunshaughlin is immaterial.

And if people want to walk or cycle to the station?

That said, for the tends of millions saved by not making the detour, a nice shuttle bus can be provided.

dowlingm

Victor wrote: »

They are proposing to stable a number of trains at Navan.

Thanks. I hope there will be a crew base too and not a Rosslare like fiasco with taxis.

BrianD

Victor wrote: »

They are proposing to stable a number of trains at Navan. These can be swapped during the day with trains from Drogheda. they only need to go "home" every few days.
And if people want to walk or cycle to the station?

That said, for the tends of millions saved by not making the detour, a nice shuttle bus can be provided.

Even if east of Dunshaughlin, it is still probably impractical for cyclists from Ashbourne. Ideal is link bus route.

I have seen proposed routes that show the line almost zig zagging back and forth between Dunshaughlin and Ashbourne. This is not very practical and very expensive.

The problem is that a route like this can't be 'all things to all men'.

coolmangg

Sorry don't know why that link is not working, try again
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=203718849652007389080.00049bb2813c34a0cd854&ll=53.522758,-6.433868&spn=0.380455,0.672913&z=11

Something that does not seem to be considered when using the argument that to cross the M3 would cost too much. The line as it is proposed now will have to pass below the Trim rd adjacent to the southern M3 toll plaza as well as the R125 Dunshaughlin - Trim Rd Link. No facilitation for these has been left in the M3 accommodation works. So to pass the train line here will cost lots also!

Also land has to be purchased as the line enters Navan which is not ideal.

I know it is a little late for this type of comment however it is frustrating that nobody else explores these options.

Judgement Day

I'm confused, you're all talking as if the railway is going to be extended to Navan - I don't think so! With an FG hairshirt government coming in the extension of railway lines anywhere is most unlikely. Tell me I'm wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzu1ToAxdFk

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm confused, you're all talking as if the railway is going to be extended to Navan - I don't think so! With an FG hairshirt government coming in the extension of railway lines anywhere is most unlikely. Tell me I'm wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzu1ToAxdFk

Even if FF stayed in Government and Dempsey hung around, it still wouldn't be built. One for the future maybe, but unfortunately we'll need a ****load of housing development along its route to make it pay.

Sponge Bob

Noel Dempsey promised it would be finished and open in 2004 ( back in 1999) and of course Noels word was always the gold standard in Irish Politics

c_donno

coolmangg wrote: »

Sorry don't know why that link is not working, try again
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=203718849652007389080.00049bb2813c34a0cd854&ll=53.522758,-6.433868&spn=0.380455,0.672913&z=11

Something that does not seem to be considered when using the argument that to cross the M3 would cost too much. The line as it is proposed now will have to pass below the Trim rd adjacent to the southern M3 toll plaza as well as the R125 Dunshaughlin - Trim Rd Link. No facilitation for these has been left in the M3 accommodation works. So to pass the train line here will cost lots also!

Also land has to be purchased as the line enters Navan which is not ideal.

I know it is a little late for this type of comment however it is frustrating that nobody else explores these options.

It was explored and there are a number of reasons this route was chosen.

• This option was explored by IE and it was decided that it would be better to stick to as close to the same route as the old line as it caused much less disruption to land and roads.

• The topography of the landscape along your route and through Skryne and the Tara valley again is unfeasible as alot of cutting and filling would be required to get the track level. Remember trains cant climb tracks like cars can climb roads.

• If the train went that side of Dunsaughlin to pick up Ratoath and ashbourne what would happen to all the cachement area between Batterstown to Trim??

• Financially it costs much less to go by the old route as they can use existing bridges in a good few locations. They already have the bridge to cross the Boyne, estimated to save them 4 million.

According to an IE engineer it will cost circa 400 million to reopen the line including all the C.P.Os involved. Now i know that the country is smashed and im sure this project wouldnt be in alot of the incoming politicians agendas but sure what other infrastructure projects can the afford to go at?? Metro north estimated to be 5 billion, the Dublin underground?? No chance, The line to Navan would be built for the price of the consultants that would be used to advize on these projects.... so in my opinion it may still be a slight possibility that this could go ahead.....

Emphasis on the slight......

GeneHunt

Sorry for resurrecting a nine year old thread, but I want to link to a article on the Meath Chronicle or see below.

Transport Minister confirms review of Navan rail line feasibility will happen next year

The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport has confirmed that a review into the feasibility of a Dublin-Navan rail line is being fast-tracked and will take place next year.

Speaking at today's Cabinet meeting on the Government's 'Future Jobs Ireland' initiative which was held in the OPW offices in Trim, Minister Shane Ross said the review of the much sought after rail corridor was being brought forward. His comments were endorsed by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar who said he wanted to see more carriages and frequency on the trains that would also serve his constituency in Dublin West.

Responding to a question from the Meath Chronicle, Minister Ross said he was aware that the National Transport Authority had briefed Meath County Council just last week on the matter where they indicated that a review would begin in late 2020 and be completed by mid 2021 as part of the National Transport Strategy.

"I've been speaking to at least two of your local representatives, Regina Doherty and Damien English about that and that review has been brought forward and will take place in 2020."

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar added that he had a "parochial interest" in the issue as trains that started in Pace and pick up in Dunboyne also stopped in his consituency of Dublin West adding that he wanted to see the line extended and made more frequent. He said he welcomed the news that a feasibility review was to take place in 2020.

The Taoiseach acknowledged Minister Shane Ross' announcement this week that €1bn in funding for major rail infrastructure over the next five years had been secured and the impact that would have on commuter train capacity. "I know for my constituents in Dublin West who regularly face getting on trains full with people coming from Meath and Kildare that they'll be welcoming that investment too."

Minister Regina Doherty said: "We've been looking for this for a long time. I have to say we were probably somewhat disappointed when it wasn't included in the Project Ireland 2040 plan but Damien (English, Helen (McEntee) and myself as well as all the local representatives from the county have been lobbying hard to get that review brought forward on the basis that we are building thousands of houses in our county and inviting thousands of families to come and live in this beautiful place but they do have to have access to public transport that is reliable. So the review next year, I have no doubt, will prove the feasibility of that train to Dunshaughlin and Dunsany and Navan and I look forward to being here hopefully when it starts."

At last week's monthly Meath Co Council meeting several councillors were sharply critical about the progress being made on restoration of the rail line. Navan Mayor Cllr Tommy Reilly said that the NTA officials and the Minister should come to Navan early in the morning to see what it takes to try to get to Dublin. "A review of transport strategy was very little use to people who were being forced to leave their homes and families in the early hours of the morning in order to get to work on time.

More in Tuesday's Meath Chronicle.

Was there not a feasibility study done before on the Navan rail line??

Lord Glentoran

GeneHunt wrote: »

Sorry for resurrecting a nine year old thread, but I want to link to a article on the Meath Chronicle or see below.



Was there not a feasibility study done before on the Navan rail line??

In retrospect, the Navan rail line proposal looks to have been an elaborate trick to get funding for the M3 and for estate agents to fool people into buying houses in Navan.

marno21

A great day for manufacturers and suppliers of ink, paper and filing cabinets.

Victor

GeneHunt wrote: »

Was there not a feasibility study done before on the Navan rail line??

Yes, but it wasn't published.

However, if it really only serves Navan, is following the original line the best thing to do? Might a 'higher speed' route between the two blue lines be better?

AngryLips

Is there an election on the way?

ncounties

Victor wrote: »

Yes, but it wasn't published.

However, if it really only serves Navan, is following the original line the best thing to do? Might a 'higher speed' route between the two blue lines be better?

A route between those lines would require tunneling within the M50. I would say extending it on from M3 Parkway (as was the original plan) with a spur to Ashbourne would ultimately be cheaper than this proposal. Still pie in the sky stuff - don't think it'll ever be extended to Navan in my life time (and I'm 29!).

GeneHunt

Victor wrote: »

Yes, but it wasn't published.

However, if it really only serves Navan, is following the original line the best thing to do? Might a 'higher speed' route between the two blue lines be better?

Considering the fiasco the UK are at with HS2, I wouldn't even suggest that here.

GeneHunt

ncounties wrote: »

A route between those lines would require tunneling within the M50. I would say extending it on from M3 Parkway (as was the original plan) with a spur to Ashbourne would ultimately be cheaper than this proposal. Still pie in the sky stuff - don't think it'll ever be extended to Navan in my life time (and I'm 29!).

Or in your children's, children's life time :rolleyes:

Victor

ncounties wrote: »

I would say extending it on from M3 Parkway (as was the original plan) with a spur to Ashbourne would ultimately be cheaper than this proposal.

Not much use for Belfast trains.

GeneHunt

If we were serious about infrastructure (or anything) in this country, we should have had a route included next to the M3 with the bridges constructed as part of the M3 contract, but that would mean this country would have jointed up thinking and that will never happen.

loyatemu

GeneHunt wrote: »

If we were serious about infrastructure (or anything) in this country, we should have had a route included next to the M3 with the bridges constructed as part of the M3 contract, but that would mean this country would have jointed up thinking and that will never happen.

I think at least one bridge was included in the M3 project to accommodate the future reopening of the rail line.

L1011

loyatemu wrote: »

I think at least one bridge was included in the M3 project to accommodate the future reopening of the rail line.

One was hacked in at the last minute and will require a huge length of the rail alignment either side to be dropped cause trains don't climb hills


The junction at Dunboyne has the most obvious works to accommodate the headshunt but I think that's it

GeneHunt

L1011 wrote: »

One was hacked in at the last minute and will require a huge length of the rail alignment either side to be dropped cause trains don't climb hills


The junction at Dunboyne has the most obvious works to accommodate the headshunt but I think that's it

which bridge is that?

Victor

GeneHunt wrote: »

which bridge is that?

You can just make out the blocked-up ends either side of the M3 here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6161733,-6.6713259,116m/data=!3m1!1e3 - they look like square brackets ] [ about 70 metres west of the overbridge.

GeneHunt

wow, I never noticed that before!

thanks for that.

tallaghtfornia

GeneHunt wrote: »

wow, I never noticed that before!

thanks for that.

Going a bit stupid here - I can’t notice that at all is it on the left and side of the overpass ?

tallaghtfornia

I see it now apologies ��

ohographite

Was this railway double track or single track?

tallaghtfornia

Clonsilla to Navan was originally a double track - think it was shortened to single before closure

AngryLips

Is the existing M3 parkway route double tracked?

loyatemu

AngryLips wrote: »

Is the existing M3 parkway route double tracked?

yes

flazio

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

machaseh

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

Typical Irish mentality: 'It has never been done in Ireland before so it cannot be done.'

While most other nations all around the world, some more impoverished than Ireland, are building railways all over the place.

tallaghtfornia

Said it on previous treads - Both past and present governments have not built one heavy railway since the foundation of the state all they have done is upgraded Victorian Railways to semi modern standards and rebuild some off the railways that where torn up by there predecessors .

The Irish Government are only interested in Roads so they can gouge the Irish Taxpayer for Stealth taxes for driving. If they had any interest in Rail with all the money that was wasted over the last 40 years we would have had good railways.

L1011

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

Lavistown Curve :pac:

Google Maps'd down the route from Navan and the motorway or associated roads fouls the alignment another 4 times; three would be overbridges and one would be an underbridge that is not boxed:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4513946,-6.4807969,229m/data=!3m1!1e3

Paddico

Victor wrote: »

You can just make out the blocked-up ends either side of the M3 here: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.6161733,-6.6713259,116m/data=!3m1!1e3 - they look like square brackets ] [ about 70 metres west of the overbridge.

Zoom out a bit more and you can clearly see the ditches from the old line

CrabRevolution

I'd like to see the Navan line rebuilt simply so that the Meath Chronicle will be forced to find something else to write about. I don't expect much from a local newspaper but their "editorials" lately have become nothing but more and more convoluted ways of demanding a railway.

AngryLips

flazio wrote: »

Neither Irish Rail or CIE have built a new route from scratch in their lives.

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

GerardKeating

AngryLips wrote: »

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I think most/all of your suggestions previously existing.

Lord Fairlord

AngryLips wrote: »

That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I'd love a Dublin to Derry rail line (not via Belfast) with a spur to Letterkenny.

L1011

All existed, at least two in CIE ownership too

Cork Limerick is a relatively recent (45 years or so) removal.

There were two different Letterkenny Derry routes I belive. This is from memory, not actually checking

Waterford Mallow was the Waterford Cork route. More direct would be geographically impossible probably

Dundalk Monaghan was the INWR line I think

magicbastarder

there used to be a railway line all the way up to Carndonagh in Inishowen. the OSI mapviewer is a good way of checking how much railway there used to be in the country.

marno21

This is an excellent map of previous rail lines

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

ncounties

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryLips View Post
That said, what totally new route would they build? Most of the major urban centres are served. Maybe a direct route for Cork-Limerick? Connect Letterkenny with Derry? Most of the big urban centres are served by rail. Cork-Waterford? Monaghan-Dundalk maybe.

I'd love a Dublin to Derry rail line (not via Belfast) with a spur to Letterkenny.

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

Lord Fairlord

ncounties wrote: »

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

I'd prefer for the line to go from Omagh to Clones and then maybe to Navan and then to Dublin - a new route. That said your idea may well make more sense than mine! I had to get to Armagh before from Dublin and it involved two buses, changing at Newry; it's a pity that there's no direct service AFAIK.

Zebra3

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

I'd prefer for the line to go from Omagh to Clones and then maybe to Navan and then to Dublin - a new route. That said your idea may well make more sense than mine! I had to get to Armagh before from Dublin and it involved two buses, changing at Newry; it's a pity that there's no direct service AFAIK.

Does the Dublin-Derry bus not serve Armagh?

roadmaster

Well the simple fact is with the amount of housing planed for the Navan Area over the next 10/15 years if they don’t build a rail line the M3 from Navan North will look very similar to the M50

ncounties

Zebra3 wrote: »

Does the Dublin-Derry bus not serve Armagh?

Standard routing would be leaving the M1 at Ardee, and having the drivers EU Driving Hours Regulations break at Monaghan town, before proceeding to the border.

Zebra3

ncounties wrote: »

Standard routing would be leaving the M1 at Ardee, and having the drivers EU Driving Hours Regulations break at Monaghan town, before proceeding to the border.

Dublin-Derry Translink bus serves Armagh.