Navan Rail Line

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142004#Comment_120142004

Government policy for the next 20 years is to concentrate development in and around existing settlements. Developing new infrastructure and services for an entirely new town of any significance will cost an absolute fortune. There is already a town will a significant population between Dunboyne and Navan, Dunshaughlin. There is nothing to be gained from replicating the old alignment, large sections of it are entirely gone, land would need to be bought, everything rebuilt from scratch, etc.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142154#Comment_120142154

Agreed for the most part. I just feel incredibly bleak about the ability to urbanise currently when land prices act as such a bottle neck on sustainable development. Yes there is dereliction, and yes there are as many golf courses in South Dublin as pubs, but in a housing crisis where development needs to happen now, burning money paying Golf Club Owners when that could be a couple blocks of apartments seems missed guided.

I appreciate the idealism though.

murphaph

Some of the dereliction and urban decay in Dublin 1 is unbelievable when compared to the very centre of other European capitals. I struggle to think of one in Europe like it to be honest, though there probably is, I haven't been in every European capital.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142527#Comment_120142527

To be fair it is MUCH better now than for most of Dublins history. Dublin went into decline in about 1800 and by 1985 it was mostly a surface car park, it was grim, the 90s and 2000s brought back some measure of life. You don't see much like it mainland Europe agreed, the UK is full of it though. Ever been to Birmingham? Even more vibrant Manchester has ample surface parking and empty patches of land

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142938#Comment_120142938

Not if Frank McDonald can help it.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120142938#Comment_120142938

Oh I remember it well. The mother used to park behind the Ilac in a surface car park on Parnell St. that has thankfully gone like pretty much all of them and yeah, regional cities across Europe can be found with dereliction but capitals with dereliction and vacant sites in the central districts? Can't be many. I've never seen any in Europe anyway.

spacetweek

The Navan route to Dublin via Drogheda is a non-runner due to the 80/90 min journey time alone. That's a laughable journey time for a town so close to a major city. We should be aiming for 50/60 mins at least.

I made a map of derelict sites in Dublin [Edit: Looks like you need to be signed into Google to be able to see it, screenshot added]. Red is built on and completed, blue is derelict or under construction. They are being built on at a rapid rate, but there are still many left. We also have plenty of brownfield land in Dublin (e.g. industrial).

Problem is that it takes way longer to build on brownfield compared to greenfield. When new Navan line is built, there should 100% be new outlying towns developed along the empty parts. The housing targets we are trying to hit in Dublin are mind-boggling. We need I believe about 20k new units/year just in Dublin alone in order to satisfy demand. No way is that going to happen unless a pipeline of massive masterplanned new developments are created.

As for the alignment, from Pace it should cross the M3 heading north then pass west of Fairyhouse to serve Ratoath (though a new access road would be needed) then head northwest to pass east of Dunshaughlin. Might not be any point serving Tara as not enough demand, though a station at Lismullen could have a shuttle bus. Then Navan East, Navan Central and Navan West.

Best location for the first new commuter town would be north of Black Bull just north of Pace.

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144001#Comment_120144001

You're probably right but we have a couple of these tangential routes around Berlin that eventually go through the centre but you would not take them to get to central Berlin from where they begin, you would take a more direct one, so Drogheda passengers bound for D2 would continue to travel on the GNR route but passengers bound for D15 might instead take the MGWR route via Navan. What is the planned line speed from Navan to Clonsilla, does anyone know? The line is straight and level. They should really be able to achieve 160km/h on a new build like that or there's no hope for us. What is the max speed of the hybrid DART units that are on order at the moment?

For the moment I believe this is all pie in the sky. It's been policy for a very long time but nothing has happened. The M3 destroyed parts of the alignment as well, showing how serious they were about reinstating the route back then already. I think Navan is justifiable though as so much of the alignment is still there. I suspect of it was ever built it would be attractive to the current M3 toll users who could drive to a P&R in Navan and take the train instead of paying the toll.

murphaph

I honestly see no justification at present for new commuter towns along this alignment as long as the large swathes of land between Grand Canal and the GSWR line around Clonburris and all the way out to the Kildare border are completely empty. That line has far higher capacity too, being quad tracked to Inchicore and triple tracked to Heuston. It should be possible to quad track it all the way to Heuston too. The MGWR is constrained by the Royal Canal and will never be more than a double track.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144001#Comment_120144001

Can the car really compete with those journey times to places in the southeast inner city such as the major employment hubs around Grand Canal?

CatInABox

There's been a few people cracking open the crayons in here, wondering where the line might go, but realistically, there are only two options. The two route options are basically the same, using the existing alignment into Navan. The difference between the two was around Dunshaughlin, with option A being to use the existing alignment in full, with a station on the west side of the M3, and Option B being to cross the M3 immediately after the M3 Parkway station and swing around east of Dunshaughlin before heading back across the M3 to join up with the existing alignment.

So the line would be:

M3 Parkway => Dunshaughlin (East or West) => Kilmessan => Navan Central => Navan North

As fun as it is to imagine other alignments, it's not going to happen. You can see for yourselves here.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144939#Comment_120144939

That was published in Sept 2021 so probably worked on prior to the current governments tenure. It also leaned heavily on a 2011 Environment Impact Assessment, which is now wildly out of date in 2023.

In fairness to Eamon Ryan and the Greens, they are finally changing the narrative in Ireland regarding rail - so I wouldn't make assumptions about anything.

Suggesting new crayon routes is definitely needed.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144939#Comment_120144939

There is little to nothing of the old alignment left. Follow it on Google maps, large sections have completely disappeared and that which is identifiable as the old alignment is of no benefit; its not owned by the state, it needs to be completely reengineered to support trains, new drainage, etc.

In Kilmessan it has been built over so a new alignment is needed there anyway. A 100m+ bridge at great height would be required across the link road from M3 J8. At Navan, it has also been built over, including a road, and would require LCs where it crosses other roads. Where would a 'Navan Central' station even be located? It would have to be west of Pairc Tailteann which is not central and away from the main residential areas. If you are crossing the M3 twice, that is another massive cost.

murphaph

I don't see any great advantage in deviating from the original alignment. It brings the line closer to Ashbourne, but further away from Trim. I would just follow the original alignment. There's an advantage to keeping the line as short as possible too and there probably wouldn't be any nasty geological surprises as a railway has already existed along it. I would leave the station at Dunshaughlin too and designate the lands around it as an SDZ.

Is there any mention of freight along the route? Would it make sense to route Tara mines traffic away from the GNR line to use the MGWR instead? You'd eliminate the at grade crossing as empty ore wagons come in from Church Rd to join the mainline as traffic would go under it out the MGWR to Clonsilla. At Clonsilla you'd have an at grade crossing of empty trains returning to Navan but this should be easier to manage.

Of course, by the time any of this is built Tara mines will probably be exhausted!

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145157#Comment_120145157

There never was a Dunshaughlin station. A station at Drumree would not be convenient from most houses in Dunshaughlin so not a great option. The old alignment also not convenient from Trim, it would be the worst of both worlds in terms of trying to accommodate both Dunshaughlin and Trim, i.e. awkward for everyone.

munchkin_utd

Dunshaughlin isnt a problem. All they need is a shuttle bus timed to meet the frequent and high capacity trains and people will forget the 109 even exists.

This is basic stuff that happens all over the continent from Czech republic to Netherlands. The trains are the core of your transport SYSTEM and buses are very often just feeders - which also then has the advantage that you arent killing yourself to provide a seat for everyone as they are only going 5 to 10 minutes and can stand for such a short spin.

Irelands problem is that any hope of a SYSTEM was scuppered by CIE sub-companies artifically being set up to "compete" with each other , but with the NTA at least they can talk to each other without fear of some one bus private operator taking the hump

murphaph

Yeah I would leave the Dunshaughlin station as planned and then develop the lands around it in an orderly manner as an SDZ to a decent density, with a local bus shuttling people to and from the station. Once the service is fast and frequent and crucially timetabled to meet trains, people will use it. Decent P&R facilities for people further out, perhaps with a nominal charge to discourage Dunshaughlin residents from using it instead of the shuttle bus, which would cost nothing extra.

end of the road

in fairness the CIE companies were set up via a split of CIE in 1987 long before any major expansion of the private coach operations, of course there were some private coach operations then and long before hand.

they were told to compete back then and didn't talk to each other back then either, so whatever about a private bus operator getting the hump now, the reason the CIE companies didn't bother talking to each other was nothing to do with private bus operators originally.

there was never anything stopping the CIE companies from offering integrated services, i doubt they were even integrated when under 1 operation.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145003#Comment_120145003

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120145042#Comment_120145042

In almost every meaningful way, reopening the old alignment is going to easier, both politically and legally. Won't matter about environmental impact assessments, or surveys, or anything like that, it's just going to come down to the fact that it'll be easier to route it on the old alignment.

Yes, there's been parts of the old alignment that have been turned into fields, or even built on, but there's enough of it left over that it'll be far easier to say "we're taking this field back, and CPOing this house, because right through there is two kilometres of the old alignment, this allows us to join the dots", etc.

You can see how much of the alignment survives on the OSI maps, here. Hopefully that works.

It's possible that they could suddenly throw out decades of precedent and go totally wild with a brand new alignment, but I'd hazard a guess that they won't.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120144001#Comment_120144001

I'm curious. You think it takes a long time to develop brownfield sites, ok granted it takes a long time to develop anything in Ireland.

Why would it be quicker to develop entirely new towns? Complete with new sewer network, esb connections, broadband, roads, fresh water, waste collection, gas? Plus schools, medical facilities, shopping and entertainment. Surely it would be cheaper and easier for the state to ..say... purchase Dublin industrial estate near broombridge, demolish it and use its existing utilities, perhaps with some capacity upgrade to build say 7,000 apartments. Make it a zero car development, served by the planned DART/LUAS interchange at Broombridge which will be built anyway. Sell half the units to individuals rent a quarter at cost rental and use another quarter as social housing. With the money left over from new town development build extensions to schools and hospitals nearby.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120146959#Comment_120146959

Alot of what you say makes sense, But up untill last week the government didnt want to do housing like that.Now they are only starting to look at buying developments of the drawings.

The gas thing is many developers do not want to build apartments with parking because of the cost of basements but have to because of planning.

Like you said i think in a previous post there is a huge amount of land inside the M50 that could be developed and must is state owned but there is reluctance there to develop it for some reason. Another major issue all over the country is a lot of derlict sites are in probate which can go on for years.

The Navan rail line needs to go where the people are not green fields. If a few properties need to be knocked so be it

cgcsb

Compulsory building of parking spaces for apartments should end in any case, people who want to have a parking space can purchase one at a premium, it shouldn't be a reason to restrict development. Why should a careless person pay 40% more for their apartment so that their neighbour can have a place to park a car.

spacetweek

I think it'll be a great pity if they build on the original alignment. Doesn't serve Ratoath, doesn't properly serve Dunshaughlin, unnecessarily serves Kilmessan (pop. 654), doesn't serve Trim, doesn't serve Navan East and doesn't serve Navan Central.

marno21

https://twitter.com/shanecassells/status/1625566712132210695?s=21

cgcsb

Good to hear but 18 months from concept to submitting a railway order for a brand new railway is vacuous nonsense. DART RO was submitted to ABP in late 2022 approximately 3 years after the project initiated, and that's an upgrade of a currently functioning rail line.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244200#Comment_120244200

Dart+ is a huge project with signalling upgrades, changes to current stations, level crossings etc.

If they choose to use the current rail alignment, Navan line would be much faster. Even a new alignment should be faster, but it does seem ambitious by Ireland's record

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244200#Comment_120244200

There will be some elements that can be reused from the early 00s plans; obviously environmental regs are entirely different but the route and geological conditions haven't changed. Much (the M3 interference is new).

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120244699#Comment_120244699

Even still by all accounts getting DART+ RO over the line was herculean considering the small team involved. The notion that we can deliver same for Navan DART in 18 months is frankly a laugh, don't know why they come out with such wild pronouncements. They'd have to get the Chinese and their forced labour in to achieve such a programme.

The old documents are wasted, a whole new project is required. We'd be lucky to get to option selection in 18 months.

Sam Russell

Is Shane Cassells saying it is 18 months to the next time he has to face the voters - or have I missed something?

spacetweek

In the tweet I think "begin planning" means route selection. That's not an RO.