Navan Rail Line

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121750928#Comment_121750928

There must be an election on the horizon

Metalpanic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121752623#Comment_121752623

They're still at it don't worry!

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-02-01/21/#pq_21

cgcsb

In order to achieve Navan DART for 2033, it would have to be at construction stage while the DART+ West project is still at construction stage (which will not be completed till at least 2029). That is a tall order by any measure. Navan is pretty far from Dublin compared to the outer reaches of the DART network, it'll need some express services that don't stop at every DART Station if you're going to get at least some trains from Navan to Dublin in under an hour.

roadmaster

Is the Route going the same proposed back in the 00s or will it go were the people live?

goingnowhere

From a standing start you are looking at 7 years to go from concept to open for service

18 months for consultation and preparation of the application

3 months lost waiting on minister to approve

18 months at ABP to get a hearing and decision (a public hearing will be triggered)

?? For potential legal cases

6 months for tender/contracts and preliminaries

2.5 years to build

6 months for test/commission

6.75 years...

ArcadiaJunction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756609#Comment_121756609

Ha! So much for the Greens opening railways ffs...

spacetweek

What?? It takes way longer than 7 years!

Metrolink is now 19 years in and still not at construction (some would argue 24 years as the Metro North project first appeared in 2000). 2008 crisis but still.

We'd be doing very well if Navan opened in the next 7 years!

specialbyte

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760261#Comment_121760261

Ah here! MetroLink is a discrete project. Lumping it it with MetroNorth is a bit much. They started from scratch.

Since the recession the first point that a metro for north Dublin was the agreed approach forward was in the "Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study" from June 2015: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Fingal_North_Dublin_Transport_Study_Final_June_2015.pdf

The first public consultation on MetroLink was in March 2018.

So 9 years from the transport study and 6 years from the first public consultation on this project. Not 19 or 24 years. There's been enough delays on this project you don't need to exaggerate.

The planning application was submitted to ABP 500 days ago today. The oral hearing starts next Monday 19th February 2024. It runs until 26th march 2024, over a month. Yikes. It's been too damn slow in consultation, business case approval and planning approval.

Pete_Cavan

I agree that it's ridiculous how far back people go to find some obscure reference to underground rail then assign all the time that has passed since then to the Metrolink project. But 7 years to have a rail link to Navan in operation is also nonsense.

Claims that it is reopening a currently unused line are far from accurate. Even following the historical route exactly means CPOing most of the route. There are properties built beside or on the old alignment so there will be significant opposition to it. Building a heavy rail line through Kilmessan would be extremely expensive and serve very few people. For the most part, the only people the line would pass near are rural dwellers who don't want trains impinging on their lives and won't be near a station to benefit from the line.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760665#Comment_121760665

There's the M3 as well to deal with, even if you're not crossing it, you're still going to impact on all the entrance roads that run up to it.

I still believe that nothing has changed since the last time that this was looked at, and it'll follow the old alignment almost exactly.

cgcsb

9 years is an impossible ask. Even china would struggle with such a timeline that is concept to operation. Unheard of, DART+ is 10 years from concept to operation with existing tracks and commuter services

CatInABox

Guess it would depend on how many non-statutory consultations NTA/TII think it needs. Metrolink had two, but that's an entirely different scale.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757370#Comment_121757370

You're not familiar with any Irish infrastructure project ever, are you? You can probably near double that time frame, if it doesn't get scrapped and re-investigated at numerous general elections.

goingnowhere

Lost count number of RWO's I've been involved in over last 20 years.

The process is as above, thats the legal and engineering flow to get it built, generally (Metro and DART underground being exceptions) the work to even prepare the consultation won't start unless everything is ring fenced and approved.

If you look at Cork Midleton, Clonsilla M3 Parkway, Luas B1 they all match or beat this timeline

For Clonsilla Navan its open countryside, 95%+ on original alignment and the largest civil engineering challenge of crossing the Boyne is already covered, try to build a new bridge today would be a massive challenge

The challenges

1. Deal with a minor deviation at Drumree
2. Reuse of the existing alignment at Dunsany
3. Killmessan is possibly the biggest challenge
4. M3 crossing, there is provision already built but spec is unclear

hans aus dtschl

Cork Midleton route alignment was not encroached upon and the alignment was well protected. I bow to your superior knowledge here but my cursory look at the map makes me think it looks like a difficult project with so much of the original alignment gone.

loco_scolo

I'd like to be a bit more optimistic on timelines given the shifting focus from roads and motorways to rail and public transport.

In the 2000s, 100s of km of motorways were brought from concept to design, approval and build in 10years. The M4/M6 Galway-Dublin motorway was announced by Bertie in 1999, had full approval by 2006 and was fully opened by 2009.

Only time will tell if they can replicate that success with railways, but it is possible. We already did it with the motorways. The Greens have been working in the background on extremely important changes to planning and legal frameworks, such as the planning court.

munchkin_utd

+1, and the obstacles arent all that big.

For the likes of Kilmessan they will need a new path but it would be little different than a road bypass , and should a crossing of the M3 be needed, then it'll be built.

It would be possible to close one carraigeway and build the first half of an underpass and then once thats finished start on the other side. Its not rocket science. On old motorways they renew culverts etc the whole time and this is not a massive amount different - and certainly not a deal breaker.

Costwise, yes maybe an underpass will cost a few euro than if you didnt need to have one but Ireland is sitting on billions of euros of corporation tax cash generated by american companies paid for by european taxpayers and can afford it. This railway and essentially all other upcoming infrastructure projects are for free(paid for by windfalls that have next to nothing to do with Ireland except the effort by a few civil servants to check the bank account and marvel at yet more unexpected tax returns ) so its just a little confusing why there is such reluctance to just get on with it.

CatInABox

Get where you are both coming from, but they're very different times, to be honest. Environmental protects have gone through the roof, and the Aarhus convention means that people have to be consulted far more in-depth than before.

The planning court will help, but ABP already had a section for strategic infrastructure.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762042#Comment_121762042

Times are radically different though.

Environmental rules are much more stringent. The Labour Market is heavily constrained. Health and safety even at design stage is radically more onerous, abp is more understaffed now. There are now professional objectors assisted and amplified by social media. In 2006 nobody was setting up gofundme pages to start judicial reviews against a bike lane on an existing road. There are residents associations/cartels that extort money from developers.

Pete_Cavan

I would ask anyone claiming that the original alignment is still there to actually follow it on Google Maps. There is still a ditch in some places but large sections show no evidence of a previous rail line at all. All of the land will have to be CPOed and an entirely new trackbed will have to be constructed from foundation up. There will be nothing quick or easy about planning or construction (if it ever gets that far).

end of the road

none of that is any different to building a brand new motor way from scratch.

land has to be bought, the whole thing built from the ground up, costs more then if the original route was there sure but in the great scheme of things not the big deal it is being made out to be by some.

it's going to have to be done, road transport and buses are way past being able to suffice as the backbone of transport for that area with often over 2 and nearly 3 hour commutes standard which is unsustainable.

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763590#Comment_121763590

Google Maps doesn't show ownership. While the way itself is in disrepair in a lot of places, that doesn't mean the land is not still owned by CIE. It's impossible to know what, if any, CPO will be required.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121763711#Comment_121763711

It is far more complex than reinstating an existing realignment, as some seem to suggest. Look at the Foynes reopening, tendered in mid 22 and expected to open end of 25 (if lucky). That is for a line which was intact, only been inactive since 2001 and brought up to freight only (no passenger services) standard. There is no chance that Navan could be tendered and built in the same timeframe. Design and planning will also take a considerable length of time. So the timeline given above does not reflect reality, which was my point.

And if buy up the land and building from scratch, why take a historic routing which serves very few people and instead take a route which would actually serve the nearby town of thousands of people which has a considerable number of commuters already?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764373#Comment_121764373

the poster who gave the timeline has knowledge on the subject having worked in areas in relation to such projects.

they never claimed their timeline was thee timeline, but rather gave a basic timeline based on all of the requirements of what it would likely take at a minimum.

you will have to ask the government why whatever route is chosen, will have been chosen, it certainly doesnt matter to me where it is built as long as it is

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764373#Comment_121764373

Over one hundred years ago the Metropolitan Railway company built a speculative line a considerable distance into Buckinghamshire from central London. It created demand for housing and was able to cream off returns on sale of land and houses. Just as well it hasn't happened in modern Ireland, we would have had forty years of guff about 'white elephants' and then scratch our heads why the motorways don't solve city centre traffic.

spacetweek

DART SouthWest is basically doing exactly that: Parkwest, Clondalkin, Kishogue and Adamstown are all new developments spurred by the rail line which will be supercharged when it is converted to DART. The land around the line is being filled in with whole new suburbs.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764447#Comment_121764447

Just pointing out that that timeline is unrealistic based on an actual real project which is happening right now.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121764523#Comment_121764523

That may have happened 100 years ago but that is irrelevant. Planning policies are totally different now. That is not a credible argument for reinstating the old alignment to Navan.

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121765225#Comment_121765225

I don't care what the alignment is. There is however an inbuilt instability in the process where redesign is part of the process. Like Grandeeod's Banjo, I'll believe the Navan line when I see it.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121762189#Comment_121762189

There is already provision for an underpass under the M3 (which hopefully is in the right place and tall enough for eventual 25kV electrification)