The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

VinLieger

Banjo String wrote: »

Lads, what's the chances of this being implemented in reality?

Serious question?

Will the EU put an end to this idea or what?

We wont know till late december when the EU court of Justice is meant to be giving its verdict, until then the new law cant be implemented without causing a court case that will just get defferred judgement till they rule on it

Caliden

animaal wrote: »

I wonder if this law might backfire, end up causing an increase in the sale of alcohol?

The figures below are made up to make the calculations simpler.

Today, a bottle of cognac costs €50. A can of Dutch Gold costs €1.

After the new law is introduced, the bottle of cognac must cost *at least* €20. In reality, it will stay at €50.
After the new law is introduced, the can of Dutch Gold must cost *at least* €2. Its price will move to €2.

Now, I want a bottle of cognac. I'm not pushed about buying Dutch Gold for €2 per can. What's to stop a shop from advertising "Bumper deal - buy a bottle of cognac and ten cans of Dutch Gold for €60!". The average cost per ml of alcohol is above the legal minimum. If pushed, the shop can provide a breakdown: cognac (special deal) €40, cans €2 each.

I'm using the extreme example of cognac and Dutch Gold, but the principle can be applied to any combination where one product costs above the legal minimum and another costs below it. In fact, maybe the compensating product doesn't have to be alcohol at all - "buy ten cans at €2 each and get a tank of petrol for €50 (normal price €60)!"

Reeks of anti-competition if those sort of deals will be outlawed also which is why England/Wales never even tried implementing it and why there's a case with the European courts.

Geuze

snaps wrote: »

So this minimum price? Will it be extra tax for the government or extra profit for the supermarket/shop?

No change in excise duty.

Main gain is to manufacturer / wholesaler / shop.

Somewhat higher VAT, as selling price is higher.

Banjo String

VinLieger wrote: »

We wont know till late december when the EU court of Justice is meant to be giving its verdict, until then the new law cant be implemented without causing a court case that will just get defferred judgement till they rule on it

Which leaves the question, as to why a Govt would purposely try to make itself even more unpopular with its electorate.

Especially considering this will all come to a head months before a general election.

VinLieger

Banjo String wrote: »

Which leaves the question, as to why a Govt would purposely try to make itself even more unpopular with its electorate.

Especially considering this will all come to a head months before a general election.

Because they promised it to the VFI in their manifesto and if they want their support(money) in the GE they have to be seen to try and deliver while they can

Banjo String

VinLieger wrote: »

Because they promised it to the VFI in their manifesto and if they want their support(money) in the GE they have to be seen to try and deliver while they can

End result, possible boycott of pubs, and black market drinks boom.
Coalition lose massive support from its electorate.

I despair.

Kangoo Man

Kangoo Man wrote: »

All I need to figure out is where to buy a big bag of yeast!

You don't need much yeast for making it, a pound of yeast would go a long way.

FloatingVoter wrote: »

This is homemade, not the labelled rubbish sold in pubs. You can be looking at alcohol content of 50-60% proof. Ideally it should be whisky / vodka safe at 40%. It can go to higher lethal levels - that's why we don't drink ethanol even though it looks like a nice glass of gin or vodka.
What you shouldn't let happen is your own body become the distillery - a liver has a lot to put up with - a cottage industry isn't one of them.

Timmyctc wrote: »

You realise that makes no sense right there

It makes no sense because % alcohol and alcohol proof are two different things.

40% alcohol is 80 proof, 60% alcohol would be 120 proof etc etc. Also 50 or 60% isn't that strong there are plenty of drinks on sale at that or higher, I've drank over the counter absinthe at over 70% for instance. Proper poitin will most likely be 70%+.

LordNorbury

Banjo String wrote: »

Which leaves the question, as to why a Govt would purposely try to make itself even more unpopular with its electorate.

Especially considering this will all come to a head months before a general election.

This gov is now obsessed with making like as unpleasant and difficult for everyone living in this country. They have become emboldened after 4 years of attacking people and their incomes, and the only real protest they have seen, happened in the last 2-3 months and has largely started to fizzle out since then.

Just look at the sheer arrogance of how people like Phil Hogan & Alan Shatter operated when they were in office, there is something unnatural about the arrogance that these guys demonstrated as government ministers, one guy heading up a corrupt police force and aggressively targeted whistle-blowers who were trying to call out endemic corruption within their workplace, the other thug threatened to turn off the water supply into the homes of families and the elderly if they didn't cough up for water charges that he penciled in at around 500 Euro a year, until there was uproar and he was promoted out of the job into a place where he could do no further national damage.

The latest attack on people who just want to go to work, come home and get on with life, now concerns those who have the audacity to want to buy a family home, they will now need to come up with 40-50K deposit, this was the attack we say last week on people who just want to work and get on with their lives but are now being told that they can't buy and enjoy the security of tenure that comes with that, nope they have to rent from some schoolteacher or Garda who can rack the rent up 300 Euro a month if an article in the Irish Times says that this is what is happening. Not happy with just doing that by way of attacking people, they also reinforced legislation that means any cash gifts from parents to assist with a deposit for a house, will be heavily taxed!

This week it is raising the price of a bottle of wine or a can of beer, purely to appease a strong vintners vested interest lobby group/cartel, that now wants off-license prices to be pushed artificially high because their members have been utterly incapable of innovating their products and services and attracting new business based on innovative products and lower prices. Strangely a UK pub group can land here into the Irish market and can immediately lower prices?!?

Next week it'll be some other attack, some other levy, some other charge, some other attempt to micro manage your life and chip away at some right you have this month that they want to take away from you, and no doubt some clown in government will peddle out the same old shít that "we exceed the OECD figure" for this that or the other.

jackal

LordNorbury wrote: »

This gov is now obsessed with making like as unpleasant and difficult for everyone living in this country.

The government thought this was a win win. Appease the VFI, who like it or not are a powerful lobby group in Irish politics, and also appear to be doing something akin to the smoking ban, which gained a lot of points in the end for FF.

suicide_circus

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2887291/Putin-curbs-rising-vodka-prices-bid-preserve-popularity-amid-aggravating-economic-crisis.html

jobbridge4life

LordNorbury wrote: »

This gov is now obsessed with making like as unpleasant and difficult for everyone living in this country. They have become emboldened after 4 years of attacking people and their incomes, and the only real protest they have seen, happened in the last 2-3 months and has largely started to fizzle out since then.

Just look at the sheer arrogance of how people like Phil Hogan & Alan Shatter operated when they were in office, there is something unnatural about the arrogance that these guys demonstrated as government ministers, one guy heading up a corrupt police force and aggressively targeted whistle-blowers who were trying to call out endemic corruption within their workplace, the other thug threatened to turn off the water supply into the homes of families and the elderly if they didn't cough up for water charges that he penciled in at around 500 Euro a year, until there was uproar and he was promoted out of the job into a place where he could do no further national damage.

The latest attack on people who just want to go to work, come home and get on with life, now concerns those who have the audacity to want to buy a family home, they will now need to come up with 40-50K deposit, this was the attack we say last week on people who just want to work and get on with their lives but are now being told that they can't buy and enjoy the security of tenure that comes with that, nope they have to rent from some schoolteacher or Garda who can rack the rent up 300 Euro a month if an article in the Irish Times says that this is what is happening. Not happy with just doing that by way of attacking people, they also reinforced legislation that means any cash gifts from parents to assist with a deposit for a house, will be heavily taxed!

This week it is raising the price of a bottle of wine or a can of beer, purely to appease a strong vintners vested interest lobby group/cartel, that now wants off-license prices to be pushed artificially high because their members have been utterly incapable of innovating their products and services and attracting new business based on innovative products and lower prices. Strangely a UK pub group can land here into the Irish market and can immediately lower prices?!?

Next week it'll be some other attack, some other levy, some other charge, some other attempt to micro manage your life and chip away at some right you have this month that they want to take away from you, and no doubt some clown in government will peddle out the same old shít that "we exceed the OECD figure" for this that or the other.

All of this is true. The only way to move towards defeating this is to build a coalition opposed to the MUP. The difficulty involved in that however would be immense.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

It's absolute baloney to suggest the Government will lose significant support over this. Only today it was announced that Ireland will be the fastest growing economy in the EU in 2015. Thousands of jobs are being created. That's far more important to the majority of people than no longer being able to buy a can of cheap and nasty lager for less than a euro.

CruelCoin

K-9 wrote: »

Probably a big reason the Government introduced this, overtly it's all about reducing consumption, but us Irish love our drink. We'll moan about it but will still pay up.

Yup. 109 page threadnaught confirms this.

Hillarious that people say "We aren't a nation of drunks".

Ush1

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

It's hilarious to see this is what seems to mobilise the denizens of boards to rally into action and begin furiously whizzing out spam mails to their elected TDs

Having to pay a euro or two extra for bag of cheap cans or a bottle of Château Maxol

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

It's absolute baloney to suggest the Government will lose significant support over this. Only today it was announced that Ireland will be the fastest growing economy in the EU in 2015. Thousands of jobs are being created. That's far more important to the majority of people than no longer being able to buy a can of cheap and nasty lager for less than a euro.

You did the same joke twice, nobody cared the first time.

jobbridge4life

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

Honestly this is the most frustratingly naïve notion in this debate. The concept that a minimum price can be introduced and only affect the products below the new minimum, is completely laughable and runs contrary to the very basics of economic theory. The new minimum will be the new floor. All prices will gradually rise to reflect this. Prices in pubs will rise. The market will reconfigure. We will all lose out. As for your contemptuous tone, a lot of people in this country have to be very careful about their disposable expenditure and this includes spending on alcohol.

MonkeyTennis

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

It's absolute baloney to suggest the Government will lose significant support over this. Only today it was announced that Ireland will be the fastest growing economy in the EU in 2015. Thousands of jobs are being created. That's far more important to the majority of people than no longer being able to buy a can of cheap and nasty lager for less than a euro.

1.The government has no right to insist on a minimal price of anything.

2. Varadkar says its a health related decision. It is in its hole. It will solve precisely nothing

3. The pricing of alcohol in this country is not particularly cheap. Its about average for Europe.

MonkeyTennis

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0205/678002-calories/

This is also b0ll0x

wally79

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

In my humble opinion the "premium" brands (Guinness, Bulmers, Carlsberg etc) will want to maintain this sense of their product being premium and so will increase prices on their product to distinguish them from the "8 Cans of Karpackie" on the shelf beside them

anncoates

Unfair to suggest that hiking the cost of cheapo beer to the same current price as Heino, Carlsberg and Bud will mean that the latter will immediately hike their prices as well to retain their - completely unfounded - pricing status as a 'premium' brand.

They will instead take this opportunity to distribute their product free from orphanages, sun-kissed meadows and hospitals nationwide.

Mesrine65

AirBiscuit wrote: »

And for the record, craft beer DOES taste like crap. Because it's beer, all of which I think tastes like ass anyways.

How much ass have you tasted, just as a reference point? :P

Neamhshuntasach

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0205/678002-calories/

This is also b0ll0x

How? As somebody that is on a strict diet at many times throughout the year due to weightlifting i welcome seeing the amount of calories on menus. Granted it's not a complete breakdown of ingredients and quantities. But it helps. Sometimes it's unavoidable to eat out, family events etc. So for me that will assist in determining what i eat. Also somebody that may be trying to lose weight and stay under their maintenance calories could benefit from it. It's already on every other food product. So why not on menus?

Larbre34

Are there similar minimum pricing restrictions in other EU states? And I dont mean below cost selling, just minimum price by volume?

Seems to me the proposed legislation could be on thin ice with a lot of EU rules. Aldi and Lidl will be among those to loose out majorly, hopefully they will challenge it with their massive resources.

MonkeyTennis

How is a small restaurant supposed to calculate this ? Especially if they have specials that change daily.

Connavar

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

How is a small restaurant supposed to calculate this ? Especially if they have specials that change daily.

Not to mention that it would be a bit of guess work anyway considering they are not scientific about how much of each ingredient is added to a meal

Larbre34

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

How is a small restaurant supposed to calculate this ? Especially if they have specials that change daily.

This proposal I do agree with.

They can calculate the calories for every ingredient combination by weight in advance, then just match them up to the recipe on the day, not rocket science in any sense. As they either print a specials menu or write them on a board, it should be no problem to include them at short notice.

It has not proved an insurmountable challenge in other countries where it operates.

anncoates

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

How is a small restaurant supposed to calculate this ? Especially if they have specials that change daily.

They're not going to.

Somebody will google a diet site and round it off to the nearest 100 calories.

Tarzana2

MonkeyTennis wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0205/678002-calories/

This is also b0ll0x

Disagree, this is great.

What's wrong with having the information there for people? If you don't care about the nutritional info, don't look at it.

cork guitar player

The government wants to treat us all like children it seems. I have sovereignty over my own body afaic.

Pi$$ of attention grabbing Leo and FG

mikom

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

It's absolute baloney to suggest the Government will lose significant support over this. Only today it was announced that Ireland will be the fastest growing economy in the EU in 2015. Thousands of jobs are being created. That's far more important to the majority of people than no longer being able to buy a can of cheap and nasty lager for less than a euro.

Yawn.

Cantona's Collars

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Lots of the usual hysterical nonsense and gibberish from the Online Outrage Crew. These new measures will only cause price increases for the cheapest of drinks. Even the off licence lobby group admit that. So if your thing is getting pissed on 8 cans of Karpackie, or trying to justify your drinking by polishing off a bottle of Chateau Spar then it might be causing you annoyance.

It's absolute baloney to suggest the Government will lose significant support over this. Only today it was announced that Ireland will be the fastest growing economy in the EU in 2015. Thousands of jobs are being created. That's far more important to the majority of people than no longer being able to buy a can of cheap and nasty lager for less than a euro.

OOH,look at Mr. "I'm a banker" here pontificating.I'm sure you don't have to worry about the price of a few drinks but many more do.As it is,we pay more than virtually every other country in Europe bar Scandinavia.