The Pub trade is dying - Minimum price for Alcohol?

oppenheimer1

Saw this on RTE today, the VFI are calling for a minimum price on alcohol and to prevent below cost selling. They say the supermarkets are destroying them by luring customers in with cheap alcohol in order to sell them groceries. Without a minimum price they say they will be put out of business.

To be honest, my sympathy for them is in short supply. They were price gougers during the boom and the truth has come home to roost for them. They then tried to form a cartel in order to keep prices up. To be honest I wouldn't be too disappointed if the pub trade kicked the bucket although I would feel for the staff.

So would you be disappointed if the Pub trade shrank dramatically? Do we need a minimum price?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0103/alcohol.html

Overheal

I'll keep my $2 Tuesday, thanks.

fontanalis

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Saw this on RTE today, the VFI are calling for a minimum price on alcohol and to prevent below cost selling. They say the supermarkets are destroying them by luring customers in with cheap alcohol in order to sell them groceries. Without a minimum price they say they will be put out of business.

To be honest, my sympathy for them is in short supply. They were price gougers during the boom and the truth has come home to roost for them. They then tried to form a cartel in order to keep prices up. To be honest I wouldn't be too disappointed if the pub trade kicked the bucket although I would feel for the staff.

So would you be disappointed if the Pub trade shrank dramatically? Do we need a minimum price?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0103/alcohol.html

True, but people were also willing to go to over priced glorified marts to pour it down their neck. Regarding the pub trade shrinking, what I'd love to see is the "yuppy/mutton dressed up as lamb" bars disappearing.

Cheap Thrills!

I wouldn't really care. I don't go to the pub much these days.

Logical Fallacy

The pub trade is dying because pubs are ****, the staff are normally rude as all hell, they overprice on just about everything and the Vintners Association had too much power for too long and now doesn't have a clue what to do in post Boom Ireland where your former power doesn't mean ****.

Wolfe Tone

I like going to the pub, shop around and you will find one with reasonable prices.

biko

Sounds like protectionism to me which isn't surprising since a lot of them are FF anyway and some are even TDs. Let the pub lords suffer.

Micky Dolenz

It's the price that is killing them. I have been out over the holidays and have paid €5.20 and €4.40 for a bottle of Heineken in Dublin, €4 in Limerick.

Madness considering I can buy 20 bottles for as little as €15 and go to a house party etc.

Gavin "shels"

If they want it introduced they should really have a max price for alcohol in pubs/clubs, some places charge shockingly over-priced drinks and well they'd most likely be the ones to fail.

Max Power1

Hello. Minimum price? What happened to free trade?

I think the pubs only have themselves to blame for their downturn. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to have 4 pubs on one street?

starbelgrade

Below cost selling is of great benefit to consumers as it helps creates competition in the marketplace & reduces the incentive for sellers to participate in price fixing.

Maybe the pubs should try it & see.

I really dislike protectionism practices - if an industry, which is not of any essential benefit or need to the country, cannot stand on it's own two feet, then it should be allowed to fail.

This of course, will never happen with the pub industry as those who are more competitive, provide better prices & customer service will still survive.

Jesus Wept

aidan24326

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

To be honest, my sympathy for them is in short supply

That makes two of us. As you said they were among the biggest rip-off merchants around during the boom years, so tough sh1t guys. If the supermarkets are hitting their business, too bad, it's called competition. Cut their costs and bring prices down like every other business is having to do, and then, maybe just then the customers will return.

To be fair some pubs have cut prices, introduced special offers, cheap drinks etc, but some of them seem to have ignored the fact we're in a deep recession and are just carrying on like it was still 2005. Those pubs deserve to go out of business.

noodler

We arguably have too many pubs in this country as it is.

Anyway, we have been complaining about pub prices for years and its a joke.

In my local I can at least get change out of a fiver for a pint these days but still.

oppenheimer1

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's the price that is killing them. I have been out over the holidays and have paid €5.20 and €4.40 for a bottle of Heineken in Dublin, €4 in Limerick.

Madness considering I can buy 20 bottles for as little as €15 and go to a house party etc.

I think it was price that has now forced our culture to change. Going to house parties instead of meeting in the pub has become the more normal thing to do. If people do go out, plenty of pre drinking is done in the house before hand and the amount spent while out afterwards is minimal. I guess the only way to get the people back now is to become very competitive on price. People will spend when they don't think they're being ripped off - just look at the winter sales. People held off buying stuff before Christmas when they knew there'd be a 30% discount afterwards.

The pub landlords say they can't lower prices because they've locked themselves into high rent agreements, and that wages are too high (despite the minimum wage being reduced). I do think the era of the small village with 10 pubs is coming to a close and probably no harm either.

Kinetic^

Extortionate prices is what's to blame. A pint of cordial in our local is €2, FUCK RIGHT OFF! Haven't been back there in months and nor shall I be.

CRY CRY CRY! Every industry is hurting at the moment, the majority of them got on with instead of sobbing to the press about how it's not fair.

GLaDOS

Pubs would rather change the rules than actually compete, ha.

They can **** off.

jackiebaron

Minimum price?
Drop your damn prices if you want to compete, otherwise piss off and get on welfare.

I bought a pint and a half of Heineken in Temple Bar this Christmas. It cost 9 Euros. I bought a pint and a glass of dry white in that pub across the road from O'Donaghues near Merrion Square. Cost: 11 Euros. Price of a pint and a half in the Bloody Stream in Howth was less than 7 euros. Why the big disparity?

Same round would cost 6 Euros in a trendy city centre pub in Dusseldorf. And where does all the tax go anyway? Bertie's pension?

cbyrd

Really for a lot of people it's not just the cost of the drink, its babysitters taxi's etc... nearly €100 before i leave my house ?? not a chance in hell.. €8 bottle of wine and a good movie or a few friends over .. sorted.

Pubs are very over-rated ... years ago they used to make an effort and put on a band or something, if i want to talk to people i'll phone them thanks :rolleyes: :P

ScumLord

I was in a pub for the first time in months on new years and I don't see the point in them any more. The choice of drink is limited and I'm beginning to think the quality of the drink is terrible, the music is just awful in 99% of pubs I've been in then it's so loud you can hear distortion in the speakers.

Pubs are only appealing to teens and young 20 something's that don't know any better.

They've had their day and now the fad is over, bye bye.

starbelgrade

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the pubs only have themselves to blame for their downturn. Whoever thought it would be a good idea to have 4 pubs on one street?

In most towns & villages, the number of pubs on streets hasn't changed in a long time. It was always the norm for places to have more than a few pubs on the main street.

What has changed however, is people's drinking habits.

More people drink at home now due to the availability of cheaper booze outside the pubs & due to the change in attitudes towards the drink driving laws, and in a small number of cases, due to the smoking ban.

There is no doubt that the below cost selling practices of the supermarkets has affected the pub trade. So it is not quite as simple as saying that the pubs only have themselves to blame, as there are other external factors over which they have no control.

It is how they have reacted to these factors, which hasn't helped them & it is that which they need to address.

fontanalis

jackiebaron wrote: »

Minimum price?
Drop your damn prices if you want to compete, otherwise piss off and get on welfare.

I bought a pint and a half of Heineken in Temple Bar this Christmas. It cost 9 Euros. I bought a pint and a glass of dry white in that pub across the road from O'Donaghues near Merrion Square. Cost: 11 Euros. Price of a pint and a half in the Bloody Stream in Howth was less than 7 euros. Why the big disparity?

Same round would cost 6 Euros in a trendy city centre pub in Dusseldorf. And where does all the tax go anyway? Bertie's pension?

Edit, didn't see the half pint at first

@jackiebaron

The only pub I frequent lately is a quiet old man's pub in Galway city, where I go with friends to sit down, have one or two drinks and have a decent chat. There's very few places where you can actively do this, without having to roar over the music.

@jackiebaron - I genuinely hope you're not being serious about 9euro.

starviewadams

Bollox to minimum price!The pubs have already managed to decrease off-license opening hours(under the imaginitive guise of protecting the children!) in order to force people into pubs and now they want to charge a captive audience more money,they can fúck right off.

poppyvalley

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's the price that is killing them. I have been out over the holidays and have paid €5.20 and €4.40 for a bottle of Heineken in Dublin, €4 in Limerick.

Madness considering I can buy 20 bottles for as little as €15 and go to a house party etc.

What about all the publicans who buy loads of booze in the supermarket!! then sell it in their premises at 3 or 4 times what they paid for it, plus there is no paper trail for the taxman to follow. The black economy at its best! as it's always been

Dionysus

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

So would you be disappointed if the Pub trade shrank dramatically?

No. I would rejoice for Ireland providing other drug dealers did not take the place of publicans.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Do we need a minimum price?

For health reasons and as part of a radical reform of the legalised drug industry and improving the health of society, perhaps - but not, under any circumstances, to shore up the same legalised drug dealers who were creaming it in the 'boom'.

ardinn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Saw this on RTE today, the VFI are calling for a minimum price on alcohol and to prevent below cost selling. They say the supermarkets are destroying them by luring customers in with cheap alcohol in order to sell them groceries. Without a minimum price they say they will be put out of business.

To be honest, my sympathy for them is in short supply. They were price gougers during the boom and the truth has come home to roost for them. They then tried to form a cartel in order to keep prices up. To be honest I wouldn't be too disappointed if the pub trade kicked the bucket although I would feel for the staff.

So would you be disappointed if the Pub trade shrank dramatically? Do we need a minimum price?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0103/alcohol.html

A cartell? - Get real - They tried to introduce a ban on publicans putting prices up - then the competition authority accused them of price fixing! And when you have supermarkets doing what they are doing how is that fair competition? The price freeze came at a time when we were in deflation - but energy / insurance / rates / etc /etc /etc remained the same - Do you think diageo put their prices down during all this??? A fair and reasonable gesture was twisted by the CA and the media to further ridicule the vfi and the publican. And the public lapped it up.

johnnyjb

aidan24326 wrote: »

That makes two of us. As you said they were among the biggest rip-off merchants around during the boom years, so tough sh1t guys. If the supermarkets are hitting their business, too bad, it's called competition. Cut their costs and bring prices down like every other business is having to do, and then, maybe just then the customers will return.

To be fair some pubs have cut prices, introduced special offers, cheap drinks etc, but some of them seem to have ignored the fact we're in a deep recession and are just carrying on like it was still 2005. Those pubs deserve to go out of business.

I agree with your statement but every time i go into my locals, which is seldom these days im watching to see have they raised the price or dropped the special offers and try to go back to the old ways.

Ive no sympathy for the greedy landlords who ruled with an iron fist during the boom, acting like it was an obligation to go to the pub and spend massive money. Why cant we drink at home from off licences.

I never heard the offies complaining during the boom about pub prices.

I understand in rural areas the loss of a pub can effect socialising but im from a city and have loads of pubs and can care less about one going down the drain.

jackiebaron

And even though I like the pub I will not set foot in one now that doesn't have a heated beer garden for smokers complete with telly, music, whatever.
I'll be damned if I'm going to drink in an establishment where I have to stand outside like a hobo to have a smoke.

smellslikeshoes

Pubs are just like any other business if they can't stay afloat they should fail, simple as that really.

jackiebaron

Deleted User wrote: »

The only pub I frequent lately is a quiet old man's pub in Galway city, where I go with friends to sit down, have one or two drinks and have a decent chat. There's very few places where you can actively do this, without having to roar over the music.

@jackiebaron - I genuinely hope you're not being serious about 9euro.

It was a pint and a half, babm....still expensive I think.

fonecrusher1

I find it difficult to justify going to my local for a few pints. Its just too much money for very little return. 4.50 euro per pint. Couple of pints & your talking the guts of 20 quid.
And my local is a dullish standard suburban pub, its not exactly rockin. Its just not value for money.

When the sh!t hit the fan a few years ago & many peoples circumstances changed the first luxury that was dropped straight away was drinking in pubs. Its just too expensive.

jackiebaron

jackiebaron wrote: »

And even though I like the pub I will not set foot in one now that doesn't have a heated beer garden for smokers complete with telly, music, whatever.
I'll be damned if I'm going to drink in an establishment where I have to stand outside like a hobo to have a smoke.

So you won't go to a restaurant, or cinema, or shopping centre because you have to go outside to smoke, or is it just a pub?

The Christmas Market in Galway was doing a litre of beer for a tenner. It was delicious too.

matrim

What annoys me most about pubs is the price of non-alcoholic drinks. I went out yesterday morning to watch a match. I got a pint of rock shandy which was 5.40, a pint of Heineken in the same place is 4.95. How can they justify the mineral being 45c dearer when there are no taxes / duties on them?

I didn't even want a pint of beer but ended up having one instead of a second rock shandy because it was cheaper.

oppenheimer1

ardinn wrote: »

A cartell? - Get real - They tried to introduce a ban on publicans putting prices up - then the competition authority accused them of price fixing! And when you have supermarkets doing what they are doing how is that fair competition? The price freeze came at a time when we were in deflation - but energy / insurance / rates / etc /etc /etc remained the same - Do you think diageo put their prices down during all this??? A fair and reasonable gesture was twisted by the CA and the media to further ridicule the vfi and the publican. And the public lapped it up.

If it was a fair and reasonable gesture the VFI would have introduced a price ceiling, but allowed publicans to drop their prices if they saw fit. Instead they introduced a price freeze in order to prevent deflation and competition eroding their margins, and then they had the nerve to sell the idea to us as being pro-consumer! Although I've never had much time for the VFI, this single act has completely poisoned my view of them.

Sulmac

Well since our minimum price for tobacco infringes EU law, I doubt a minimum price for alcohol wouldn't.

ardinn

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

The pub trade is dying because pubs are ****, the staff are normally rude as all hell, they overprice on just about everything and the Vintners Association had too much power for too long and now doesn't have a clue what to do in post Boom Ireland where your former power doesn't mean ****.

What POWER do you speak of - The VFI have had no power ever really - what change have they brought to the trade that has come about by their infinate "POWER" I seem to recall legislation - which came into force at the height of the CT years that prohibited smoking - They tried and failed to stop it's implementation! Some POWER there.

There has been infinate numbers of laws and legislation passed that the VFI has tried yet failed to stop / bring in, for the good of the trade.

Horse_box

If a pub is buying bottles of Heineken in bulk, at say 70 cent a bottle and selling them at 4quid, they're making 3.30 gross profit. Does anyone know, even roughly, how much of that 3.30 is going to the taxman and how much is going to the publican?

bmarley

Sure who needs the pub??They're boring, dreary places at the best of times...much prefer to have a drink in the comfort of my own home...and the check to charge 2 euro for a game of pool when no other entertainment is on offer.

jackiebaron

Deleted User wrote: »

So you won't go to a restaurant, or cinema, or shopping centre because you have to go outside to smoke, or is it just a pub?

The Christmas Market in Galway was doing a litre of beer for a tenner. It was delicious too.

I will go to a restaurant. I don't smoke when I'm eating. I do however smoke when I'm drinking. Sure, people don't want the likes of scum like me in their pub smoking a ciggy but I appreciate the gesture of those landlords who try to accomodate me as best they can within the realm of the law. Incidentally I never smoked in the cinema even when it was legal.

strokemyclover

Geldof & Co. will be out in force to generate interest in the masses of starving pub landlords across the country, I'm sure!

Do any cinemas or restaurants provide smoking areas?

Dionysus

Deleted User wrote: »

The only pub I frequent lately is a quiet old man's pub in Galway city, where I go with friends to sit down, have one or two drinks and have a decent chat. There's very few places where you can actively do this, without having to roar over the music.

I agree entirely about the obnoxiously invasive noise level in the average Irish pub. But I'd add my own bête noire: soccer on the tv. Nothing has turned me off pubs as much as the fact that it's near impossible to find a pub on an evening for a quiet chat whenever there's some British soccer match on. For refusing to facilitate the vast majority of this country which has no interest in soccer, the publicans concerned deserve to be out of business. No sympathy, none whatever.


* Pubs without tv, like Grogan's and The Gravediggers, are excepted from above rant.

pawrick

Tourist numbers are down each year, prices go up and up. Ask any tourist coming over to Ireland for a weekend break what they think of the place. Most will call in to temple bar for a look around and a pint - after the price gouging they see there they never come back to Ireland and tell their friends to avoid the country.

kfallon

Dionysus wrote: »

For refusing to facilitate the vast majority of this country which has no interest in soccer, the publicans concerned deserve to be out of business.

I would say you are the minority, not the majority :rolleyes:

ardinn

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If it was a fair and reasonable gesture the VFI would have introduced a price ceiling, but allowed publicans to drop their prices if they saw fit. Instead they introduced a price freeze in order to prevent deflation and competition eroding their margins, and then they had the nerve to sell the idea to us as being pro-consumer! Although I've never had much time for the VFI, this single act has completely poisoned my view of them.

That could not have happened for a few reasons.

1: Publicans across the country have different price ranges - for many reasons, such as a new development or adding a function room/lounge/restaurant, you have to pay the bank at the end of the day so generally you'll find pricing in pubs comparative to their services.

2: Some pubs have been the same for years - no mortgages etc: you'll find them cheaper!

3: Location - Pubs in city centres have to deal with city rates, city wages, higher costs generally - thats why their dearer.

So if you introduce a "ceiling" then that could be (for arguments sake) €5 a pint to acommodate everyone when most pubs outside of dublin are less than €4 a pint.

There is no way a ceiling could have been done - A freeze at the individual publicans price was the fairest way - AND IT DID NOT INCLUDE PUBLICANS BEING ABLE TO LOWER THEIR PRICES - If they wanted to they could - the message that was meant to be sent out was that they would not put prices up. This got lost in all the CA media hype that they sought.

dsmythy

Gavin shels wrote: »

If they want it introduced they should really have a max price for alcohol in pubs/clubs, some places charge shockingly over-priced drinks and well they'd most likely be the ones to fail.

aidan24326 wrote: »

That makes two of us. As you said they were among the biggest rip-off merchants around during the boom years, so tough sh1t guys. If the supermarkets are hitting their business, too bad, it's called competition. Cut their costs and bring prices down like every other business is having to do, and then, maybe just then the customers will return.

To be fair some pubs have cut prices, introduced special offers, cheap drinks etc, but some of them seem to have ignored the fact we're in a deep recession and are just carrying on like it was still 2005. Those pubs deserve to go out of business.

Exactly. The pub trade is dwindling but it's those who are the smartest who will survive.

ardinn

matrim wrote: »

What annoys me most about pubs is the price of non-alcoholic drinks. I went out yesterday morning to watch a match. I got a pint of rock shandy which was 5.40, a pint of Heineken in the same place is 4.95. How can they justify the mineral being 45c dearer when there are no taxes / duties on them?

I didn't even want a pint of beer but ended up having one instead of a second rock shandy because it was cheaper.

There is tax on them and you got 2 minerals :rolleyes:

aidan24326

jackiebaron wrote: »

I bought a pint and a half of Heineken in Temple Bar this Christmas. It cost 9 Euros. I bought a pint and a glass of dry white in that pub across the road from O'Donaghues near Merrion Square. Cost: 11 Euros. Price of a pint and a half in the Bloody Stream in Howth was less than 7 euros. Why the big disparity?

To be fair the rents in a place like Temple Bar or Merrion Square would be higher, for Temple Bar probably alot higher.

If rents are the issue to be tackled then that's what should be done. I don't see how landlords could get away with charging the same rent as they were 3 years ago.

Somebody told me recently that during the boom years Grafton St. was the fifth most expensive place in the world to rent retail space. Crazy as it sounds it wouldn't surprise me if that was true.

starviewadams wrote: »

Bollox to minimum price!The pubs have already managed to decrease off-license opening hours(under the imaginitive guise of protecting the children!) in order to force people into pubs and now they want to charge a captive audience more money,they can fúck right off.

That was the moment I realised that this government views the people of the country with utter contempt, as that was surely the most completely ridiculous excuse for a change of law in the history of the legal system. They obviously think we're all fcuking stupid.

Horse_box wrote: »

If a pub is buying bottles of Heineken in bulk, at say 70 cent a bottle and selling them at 4quid, they're making 3.30 gross profit. Does anyone know, even roughly, how much of that 3.30 is going to the taxman and how much is going to the publican?

Not sure of the exact figure but I do know the tax is high. If you pay a fiver for a pint you can expect that about 2 euro of that is straight to Mr.Taxman.

Degag

matrim wrote: »

What annoys me most about pubs is the price of non-alcoholic drinks. I went out yesterday morning to watch a match. I got a pint of rock shandy which was 5.40, a pint of Heineken in the same place is 4.95. How can they justify the mineral being 45c dearer when there are no taxes / duties on them?

I didn't even want a pint of beer but ended up having one instead of a second rock shandy because it was cheaper.

Of course there is tax on minerals. Also, you had a pint of beer when you didn't want it for the sake of 45c? Imean you were paying almost a fiver anyway, what difference did the extra few cent make? I agree with minerals being too expensive though.

Horse_box wrote: »

If a pub is buying bottles of Heineken in bulk, at say 70 cent a bottle and selling them at 4quid, they're making 3.30 gross profit. Does anyone know, even roughly, how much of that 3.30 is going to the taxman and how much is going to the publican?

Very roughly - 50/50.