Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception

mystic86

I'm hearing these complaints in the last couple of posts and I'm starting to agree with previous posters who say people are simply giving out as it was 'too hard' as opposed to 'level design'... Guys spawn in the balcony above you, so what?

NotorietyH

mystic86 wrote: »

I'm hearing these complaints in the last couple of posts and I'm starting to agree with previous posters who say people are simply giving out as it was 'too hard' as opposed to 'level design'... Guys spawn in the balcony above you, so what?

We're not saying it's too hard, I don't know how many more times I can say it. We're saying it's the wrong kind of hard. The guys aren't spawning on the balcony, they're spawning behind you, put of sight and killing you before you can see them half the time, rendering cover (the main focus of the combat in the game) pointless. It's cheap, lazy, game design.

mystic86

NotorietyH wrote: »

We're not saying it's too hard, I don't know how many more times I can say it. We're saying it's the wrong kind of hard. The guys aren't spawning on the balcony, they're spawning behind you, put of sight and killing you before you can see them half the time, rendering cover (the main focus of the combat in the game) pointless. It's cheap, lazy, game design.

if cover is the main focus of the combat in the game as you say then why would you call it cheap and lazy for naughty dog to make these situations as you are describing?? incompetent I could understand but it's not cheap and lazy if that's not what they intended, if what they intended was something different.

anyway, I don't remember guys spawning behind me at all tbh! I'll look out for it in my next playthrough, but I really didn't find it a problem.

I don't understand why a few difficult scenarios in the games, whether the cause be 'too hard' or bad design, is ruining the experience so much for people.

cloud493

You notice the laser sight dots soon as they spawn. You should notice them.

NotorietyH

mystic86 wrote: »

if cover is the main focus of the combat in the game as you say then why would you call it cheap and lazy for naughty dog to make these situations as you are describing?? incompetent I could understand but it's not cheap and lazy if that's not what they intended,

I said they made taking cover pointless, and actually punished you for doing so, in their cover based shooter. It's contradicting the whole way you've been taught to play Uncharted for 3 games now, it's so counter intuitive it's completely jarring, and poorly implemented. We're not making up that they have enemies spawn behind you. It is lazy game design that they couldn't think of an interesting and challenging way to approach the combat in that section and instead just throw a lot of **** at you and make it frustrating, and just dumb luck if you manage to make it through. You might turn around at just the right moment when a guy spawns behind you or to the side. Or of course you might turn around expecting a guy to have spawned behind you and get shot in the back by a shotgun armoured guy or a sniper. That whole section was a dice roll. When I got through it eventually I didn't feel any sense of achievement or relief, because I felt like I had nothing to do with it, it was all put of my control. That's bad game design to me, taking that sense of power and control away from the player.

cloud493 wrote: »

You notice the laser sight dots soon as they spawn. You should notice them.

We're not talking about the snipers. We're talking about all the guys that spawn on the ground level, the level that Drake is on.

mystic86

NotorietyH wrote: »

just throw a lot of **** at you and make it frustrating, and just dumb luck if you manage to make it through. You might turn around at just the right moment when a guy spawns behind you or to the side. Or of course you might turn around expecting a guy to have spawned behind you and get shot in the back by a shotgun armoured guy or a sniper. That whole section was a dice roll. When I got through it eventually I didn't feel any sense of achievement or relief, because I felt like I had nothing to do with it, it was all put of my control. That's bad game design to me, taking that sense of power and control away from the player.

Can't say I felt the same, I definitely felt in control and a sense of achievement and didn't feel it was luck... felt every time I attempted it I got better and better just like it should be, just at a higher/tougher level than normal.

cloud493

Well you can hear them firing. Or by then you've assumed, as should most people 'Oh I bet more guys will be coming in like they do in every Uncharted combat encounter'

NotorietyH

cloud493 wrote: »

Well you can hear them firing. Or by then you've assumed, as should most people 'Oh I bet more guys will be coming in like they do in every Uncharted combat encounter'

Yes I'm not stupid. But the problem is you can't move because you have snipers, armoured guys with shotguns, and pinpoint accurate grenades that will kill you instantly the second you leave cover, so you just get shot in the back, and if you're lucky you turn around in time to take them out but armoured guy has crept around the corner and one shots to with his shotgun. And in most Uncharted encounters the don't have enemies come in directly behind you where you've entered the room, which is kinda the point we're making.

mystic86 wrote: »

Can't say I felt the same, I definitely felt in control and a sense of achievement and didn't feel it was luck... felt every time I attempted it I got better and better just like it should be, just at a higher/tougher level than normal.

It just left me frustrated, to the point where I've taken the game out of the PS3 three times now with no intention of going back to it for weeks, so that's bad game design in my opinion anyway. Games shouldn't feel like a chore.

YouSavedMyLife

Wow its nice to see people actually agreeing with me on this subject :rolleyes:

In that ballroom section they DO spawn behind you when you walk down into the centre area infront of the stage, and thats fine. If i was fighting guys infront of me and they spawned behind me while i was in combat then yeah it would feel cheap. But that doesnt happen. If they spawned behind me and instantly blew my head off then yeah it would feel cheap. But that doesnt happen. They spawn and there is ample time to get to cover. I died a few times on this section but i adapted and it wasnt blind luck that i passed this section.

There is a Tau sniper pistol on the stage area for dealing with the snipers. Kill the snipers first and all the lightly armoured guys. The heavies walk way to slow and use shotguns which have very limited range so you just avoid them. After i took out the snipers and felt my postion at the crates was compromised because of the heavies moving in i relocated. Ran around the left handside and underneath to where i entered the ballroom as there is a **** load of cover and loads of distance between you and the heavies. IF you stand behind the crates and not move from cover then you deserve to die.

gizmo

mystic86 wrote: »

I'm hearing these complaints in the last couple of posts and I'm starting to agree with previous posters who say people are simply giving out as it was 'too hard' as opposed to 'level design'... Guys spawn in the balcony above you, so what?

Yet not three posts previous to this you said this?

To those others who reject the notion that there are some bad design decisions made throughout the game, especially with regard to combat, care to address any of the points I made above and offer a counter argument?

mystic86

gizmo wrote: »

Yet not three posts previous to this you said this?

To those others who reject the notion that there are some bad design decisions made throughout the game, especially with regard to combat, care to address any of the points I made above and offer a counter argument?

yes but the complaints made following that post didn't stack up with that, just sounded like people found it too difficult.

It was poorly designed, but not to the extent people are making it out to be and those people are/were coming across like finding it too hard was the problem really.

gizmo

mystic86 wrote: »

yes but the complaints made following that post didn't stack up with that, just sounded like people found it too difficult.

It was poorly designed, but not to the extent people are making it out to be and those people are/were coming across like finding it too hard was the problem really.

Well to add a bit more weight to them, the part Mark Hamill mentioned on the boat was another example of awful enemy placement/spawning so I'd have to agree with him there. Once the water beings pumping in you're confronted with two regular enemies and an armored enemy on the ground level. The most efficient way to tackle these opponents is, of course, to use the cover in front of you. However in the process of doing so and taking out the enemies, the snipers spawn above and behind you and begin firing down. Remember, this all happens while the water level in the room is rising.

Same goes for the sandstorm part, while I have no problem with the jeeps being there and providing heavy fire if approached, the fact that they could mow you down from a considerable distance even though you couldn't see them was ridiculous. Do remember this is on top of two Tau equipped enemies whose lasers are sweeping the area and a grenade launcher enemy on the other side. All of whom share the eagle eye vision of their jeep driving companion.

As for the stealth comment, well I didn't really have an issue with the stealth sections per say, my gripe was the punishment for "failing" these arbitrarily designated areas. Case in point, outside the temple in Syria, I carefully worked my way through the map, taking out all the guards from behind silently. Get to the end and boom, no cutscene. So I wander around and eventually spot a guard in a tower close to where you enter the area. I then creep back across the map, climb up the wall and into the room he's in, sneak up from behind, hit the attack button as per usual and Drake clocks him in the back of the head rather than doing a takedown. After said punch connects I realise what has happened, and follow it up with two or three more swift punches. The enemy doesn't make a sound, is in a continual state of staggering or being hit and is down a few seconds later. But no, the game has now decided that he has alerted his mates all over the area and soon you have more guards spawning at various points around the map complete with two armored enemies, all of whom know exactly where you are.

This is not hard. This is bad design.

tok9

The game is still very good but it has to be said that they threw stealth out the window for this one! I don't remember any section which could be completed through stealth.

NotorietyH

YouSavedMyLife wrote: »

In that ballroom section they DO spawn behind you when you walk down into the centre area infront of the stage, and thats fine. If i was fighting guys infront of me and they spawned behind me while i was in combat then yeah it would feel cheap.

Well that's exactly what happened me, several times, so it did feel cheap.

Mark Hamill

mystic86 wrote: »

I'm hearing these complaints in the last couple of posts and I'm starting to agree with previous posters who say people are simply giving out as it was 'too hard' as opposed to 'level design'... Guys spawn in the balcony above you, so what?

Too hard? I rented it on a Friday night and had it cleared on Sunday morning. It wasn't hard, it was cheap, you had to play through each set piece multiple times in order to learn where the enemies would spawn.

Well you can hear them firing.

How can you tell that the gunshot you just heard is coming from someone who spawned off screen, when you hearing the gunshots of everyone else in front of you?

Or by then you've assumed, as should most people 'Oh I bet more guys will be coming in like they do in every Uncharted combat encounter'

We shouldn't complain about bad or cheap combat mechanics because, at this stage, we should expect them?

Josey Wales

I got Uncharted 3 for Christmas and managed to play about a half an hour earlier today. It certainly plays like more Uncharted. No bad thing.

The only thing I was impressed with was the rooftop chase at the beginning. Obviously it looks amazing. The animation and interesting camera angles make it looks gorgeous. But I just found it so frustrating to actually play. I died so many times during because I chose the wrong way to turn. There is hardly any indication of what way to go and you end up having to guess. This meant that the flow of the whole sequence was so broken up by me having to redo sections that the power of it was lost.

I hope that any similar sections to come work better.

Zero-Cool

Just finished this last night. The levels were absolutely epic but some cheap gameplay fighting enemies. Missing something from U2. I only paid 25 quid for it and glad I did, brilliant experience but won't be playing through it again, gonna trade it while I can get a good price.

noodler

I have just gotten past the Syria section.

Have to say I am disappointed.

The acting, humour etc is still top notch but the story so far is yawn and more importantly the gunplay is absolutely awful.

They seem to have tried to tweak something from U2 and it is wrecking the fun out of kill hordes.

Vorrtexx

noodler wrote: »

I have just gotten past the Syria section.

Have to say I am disappointed.

The acting, humour etc is still top notch but the story so far is yawn and more importantly the gunplay is absolutely awful.

They seem to have tried to tweak something from U2 and it is wrecking the fun out of kill hordes.

There's supposed to be some sort of "Alternate Aim Settings" in camera options that you can turn on since the latest patch if you haven't tried it.

Aiming felt a little off when I played through it prior to the patch.

sheehy83

sheehy83 wrote: »

Just finished this last night. The levels were absolutely epic but some cheap gameplay fighting enemies. Missing something from U2. I only paid 25 quid for it and glad I did

I traded it for a good price as soon as I finished it too. I found it entertaining, but it was frustrating in parts, and had a slew of design flaws and cheap AI and spawning, particularly in a lot of the sections mentioned here like the ballroom, sandstorm, etc. I honestly couldn't wait to be done with it, which was a disappointment, having enjoyed the other 2 so much.

You run the risk of getting a lot of criticism for expressing negative opinions about a game with as hardcore a following as uncharted, but as a neutral observer it was clear that number 2 was the pinnacle of the series. That one didnt feel like its flaws were getting in the way of enjoying the game. Rushed and/or lazy development and an ok but not fantastic story held this one back a little.

Snakeblood

Deleted User wrote: »

I traded it for a good price as soon as I finished it too. I found it entertaining, but it was frustrating in parts, and had a slew of design flaws and cheap AI and spawning, particularly in a lot of the sections mentioned here like the ballroom, sandstorm, etc. I honestly couldn't wait to be done with it, which was a disappointment, having enjoyed the other 2 so much.

You run the risk of getting a lot of criticism for expressing negative opinions about a game with as hardcore a following as uncharted, but as a neutral observer it was clear that number 2 was the pinnacle of the series. That one didnt feel like its flaws were getting in the way of enjoying the game. Rushed and/or lazy development and an ok but not fantastic story held this one back a little.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. I loved Uncharted 2, but I didn't find this as compelling (although still good). Sitting here watching the credits roll, and my immediate impressions are that there are a few combat situations I thought were unfairly stacked from the start, 2 or 3 laser sights + rocket launcher trained on you from the opening of the scene, so if you stand still for a second at the beginnning you're whacked. I also agree with the rocket launchers being too accurate, although I had the problem with the blooper things more, as they tended to bounce unexpectedly, one would over shoot me while I was in cover and bounce back to me with little time to react. Couple that with incredibly accurate shooting later, and I was getting blown out of cover and shot as soon as I landed. I also thought the plot was a bit weak compared to the previous ones. Maybe I"m spoiled.

Oh well. Will still play the next one, if there is one.

Zero-Cool

Jaysus, Gametrailers named Uncharted 3 GOTY. Didn't see that coming, they usually know better.

Helix

i think in any other year it might have been a goty contender for me, as it is it was 6th in my top 10

Shifty Shellshock

I don't have the game but have UC2. I always use to play the multi-player on it. Seems people here only wanna play the single player and return it.

Azza

Think it won best graphics as well which is pretty lol.

Decent game but far from my game of the year.

Helix

Azza wrote: »

Think it won best graphics as well which is pretty lol.

Decent game but far from my game of the year.

why is that lol? that graphics were incredible

Helix

Helix wrote: »

why is that lol? that graphics were incredible

I don't know about that. I'm finding it harder to be impressed by console graphics lately, maybe because all the current gen platforms and engines have been pushed close to their limits as they are getting older. I mean U3 had some good graphics, and nice facial textures in particular, but they weren't leaps and bounds ahead of the last one in the series, or better enough than anything else on the market to justify a graphics GOTY, at least in my opinion. I thought batman arkham city and gears 3 were contenders for best graphics this year because they had a lot of extra detail and it was obvious that a lot of care and attention had gone into them, but even at that I didn't feel like there had been a huge jump from the previous installment in either series, and so many of the other games out there like COD, battlefield etc were just more of the same graphically.

I havent played everything, but It's hard to think of a game this year that really pushed the envelope in terms of graphics. Maybe they just wanted to give something to U3?

tok9

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know about that. I'm finding it harder to be impressed by console graphics lately, maybe because all the current gen platforms and engines have been pushed close to their limits as they are getting older. I mean U3 had some good graphics, and nice facial textures in particular, but they weren't leaps and bounds ahead of the last one in the series, or better enough than anything else on the market to justify a graphics GOTY, at least in my opinion. I thought batman arkham city and gears 3 were contenders for best graphics this year because they had a lot of extra detail and it was obvious that a lot of care and attention had gone into them, but even at that I didn't feel like there had been a huge jump from the previous installment in either series, and so many of the other games out there like COD, battlefield etc were just more of the same graphically.

I havent played everything, but It's hard to think of a game this year that really pushed the envelope in terms of graphics. Maybe they just wanted to give something to U3?

I don't know much about PC gaming and the graphics but console wise UC3 has got fantastic graphics. I'm surprised you have mentioned Batman and Gears 3 possibly being better considering they are both using an old Unreal engine at this stage and certainly don't have the same level of polish that UC3 has.

Not GOTY but I'd definitely give it best graphics too.

Helix

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know about that. I'm finding it harder to be impressed by console graphics lately, maybe because all the current gen platforms and engines have been pushed close to their limits as they are getting older. I mean U3 had some good graphics, and nice facial textures in particular, but they weren't leaps and bounds ahead of the last one in the series, or better enough than anything else on the market to justify a graphics GOTY, at least in my opinion. I thought batman arkham city and gears 3 were contenders for best graphics this year because they had a lot of extra detail and it was obvious that a lot of care and attention had gone into them, but even at that I didn't feel like there had been a huge jump from the previous installment in either series, and so many of the other games out there like COD, battlefield etc were just more of the same graphically.

I havent played everything, but It's hard to think of a game this year that really pushed the envelope in terms of graphics. Maybe they just wanted to give something to U3?

its not really about single textures, or character models, its about the overall art direction of the thing. its phenomenal

krudler

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know about that. I'm finding it harder to be impressed by console graphics lately, maybe because all the current gen platforms and engines have been pushed close to their limits as they are getting older. I mean U3 had some good graphics, and nice facial textures in particular, but they weren't leaps and bounds ahead of the last one in the series, or better enough than anything else on the market to justify a graphics GOTY, at least in my opinion. I thought batman arkham city and gears 3 were contenders for best graphics this year because they had a lot of extra detail and it was obvious that a lot of care and attention had gone into them, but even at that I didn't feel like there had been a huge jump from the previous installment in either series, and so many of the other games out there like COD, battlefield etc were just more of the same graphically.

I havent played everything, but It's hard to think of a game this year that really pushed the envelope in terms of graphics. Maybe they just wanted to give something to U3?

yeah, just no, UC3 is absolutely stunning looking, its not just the textures its the camera movement, the subtle character interaction with the backgrounds etc. how was battlefield more of the same graphically? its an entire new engine.