Suicide is OK

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

il probabley get an infracture for saying this but ive been reading SAM,s opinions on matters mental health for some time and she - he is exactly the kind of liberal im refering to

I think you are being unfair.

I thought it was great that Sam ,a working psychiatrist ,posted and said that people who are under a lot of stress may have thoughts of suicide without being mentally ill or having a mental illness.

Her patient was refered to her via GP and clearly did the right thing.

It is right that should be able to access her without fear that he might get "sectioned" etc and discuss how he was feeling etc.

Sam has explained that this can be done and that it is safe for someone to do this and they can carry on with their normal lives.

I thought it was a very rational post and took away a lot of the mystery surrounding it. There should not be a stigma attached to it.

I think you should look at it differently as Sam's post was very factual and positive.

aidan24326

Novella wrote: »

No, there isn't always a guarantee that things will get better, but if a person kills themselves, they are taking away all and any chance that things just might. I dunno, maybe I'm naive, but I guess I like to think that there is always a possibility... even if it's tiny.

That's how I'd see it. Suicide has such a finality. While alive, at least there's a chance you might see a better day somewhere down the line. I'm sure many many people have killed themselves who could be alive and well and happy now if they just sought the right kind of help and told themselves there's light at the end of the tunnel, which for most people there can be.

Fairs Fair wrote: »

Being a father and a husband and trying to give more myself does not work. If I knew a way to die without the stigma I would . I have thought of ingesting coal,soot,carbon. NOTHING makes this go away. It has always been there.

You sound like a guy in desperate need of help. I know you say conventional treatments haven't worked for you so far, but is there anything else you haven't yet explored? Hynotherapy, acupuncture?

I'm not normally a fan of what might be classed 'alternative' treatments but in your case I'd be willing to try almost anything at this stage (bar the likes of homeopathy and other such nonsense).

You CAN get better though, you have to believe that. That same mind that's making you ill has the power to make you better too.

sam34

irishh_bob wrote: »

thats because doing nothing is POLICY in our mental health service , no matter which way you turn , you are dealing with professional hand ringers who offer platitudes but little else

ah bless.

detaining over 4000 people against their will in the two years 2007 & 2008 is "doing nothing"?

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

ah bless.

detaining over 4000 people against their will in the two years 2007 & 2008 is "doing nothing"?

Any ideas on the numbers of people treated for self harm /suicide like stuff in total ?

Rodin

my only surprise is that more people dont do it. perhaps life insurance not paying out is one

aidan24326

Rodin wrote: »

my only surprise is that more people dont do it. perhaps life insurance not paying out is one

More? It's already the number one cause of death here in young males, so why would you expect there to be more?!

In the area I come from, 3 in the last 3 years alone, all male in the late 20s/early 30s age bracket, all by hanging. One I knew personally the other two just to see. I'd say I've known upwards of 10 people that killed themselves, either knew them fairly well or just in passing, all male bar one. So it's clearly a big enough problem already.

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

Any ideas on the numbers of people treated for self harm /suicide like stuff in total ?

as far as i remember, there's about 9000 acts of self harm annually (from what i remember of it, that figure doesnt include completed suicides, just attempted suicides and deliberate self-harm acts.)

irishh_bob

sam34 wrote: »

ah bless.

detaining over 4000 people against their will in the two years 2007 & 2008 is "doing nothing"?

believe it or not , i actually quoted that figure ( as reported by you on several occasions on this site ) to my GP not too long ago , he laughed and said that was the biggest load of nonesense he ever heard , according to this man ( over 25 years a GP ) , thier are nowhere near 400 people per year detained against thier will in this country let alone 4000

Rubik.

irishh_bob wrote: »

believe it or not , i actually quoted that figure ( as reported by you on several occasions on this site ) to my GP not too long ago , he laughed and said that was the biggest load of nonesense he ever heard , according to this man ( over 25 years a GP ) , thier are nowhere near 400 people per year detained against thier will in this country let alone 4000

From the HRB website - 20,195 people were admitted to psychiatric hospitals last year, 10% of those admissions were involuntary. I assume the other 2,000, or so, were already in the system.

(I didn't provide a link because it has a horribly long address)

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

believe it or not , i actually quoted that figure ( as reported by you on several occasions on this site ) to my GP not too long ago , he laughed and said that was the biggest load of nonesense he ever heard , according to this man ( over 25 years a GP ) , thier are nowhere near 400 people per year detained against thier will in this country let alone 4000

I suppose it depends on the context and why your gp thought you were asking.

The idea as Sam implies is that you do not need to have a mental illness to feel awful because of a temporary situation in your life but if you do accessing the services is not going to get you detained. Its common sense to look for help if you are thinking of self harm as a panacea for lifes problems.

drkpower

irishh_bob wrote: »

believe it or not , i actually quoted that figure ( as reported by you on several occasions on this site ) to my GP not too long ago , he laughed and said that was the biggest load of nonesense he ever heard , according to this man ( over 25 years a GP ) , thier are nowhere near 400 people per year detained against thier will in this country let alone 4000

Why are you posting on a topic you know pretty much nothing about, and arent bothered doing a quick google on. You ahve also managed to misread Sam's suggestion of 4000 for 2007 and 2008 as 4000 per yer....:rolleyes:

http://www.mhcirl.ie/Mental_Health_Tribunals/Involuntary_Admission_Activity/Tribunal_Stats2010/Tribunal_Stats2010.html
2007
Form 6 Admissions
1503

Form 13 regrade of a voluntary patient
623

Using 2007 as an example, there were >1500 involn detentions and >500 conversions of of a voluntary patient to an involuntary one. While there may be some patients who were admitted involunarily more than once, those figures are far closer to Sam's than your GPs.

Print them off and bring them into your GP next time you are in.....

Sardonicat

Thanks for the link drkp.

Sorry for dragging the thread off topic, but would those "renewal" figures also include numbers from the form 6 and 13 categories? I mean, could one patient be counted in two or even all three categories?

Much obliged if yourself or Sam could clarify.

drkpower

Sardonicat wrote: »

Thanks for the link drkp.

Sorry for dragging the thread off topic, but would those "renewal" figures also include numbers from the form 6 and 13 categories? I mean, could one patient be counted in two or even all three categories?

Much obliged if yourself or Sam could clarify.

An involn admission must begin with a Form 6 (Admission Order) or a Form 13 (regrade from von to involn). A Renewal Order can only be made in respect of someone already involuntarily detained. So yes, someone in the Renewal Order column will also be counted in the Form 6 or Form 13 columns.

In addition, it is possible, but rare enough, that one person could be in both the Form 6 or Form 13 columns (ie. if they are initially involunarily admitted, regraded back to a voluntary patient - because they agree to stay voluntarily - and then regraded again to involuntary - if they deteriorate again).

As i said earlier, the numbers in the Form 6 or Form 13 columns (around 2100) probably reflects <2100 individuals as some will have been admitted on a number of occasions in one calendar year; but the number of people who are admittedly repeatedly is likely to be relatively small number. I would hazard a guess that the 2100 admissions probably reflects about 1500 individual patients (but Sam as a practicing psychiatrist can probably give a better estimate).


Im sure its as clear as mud now!:mad:

Sardonicat

drkpower wrote: »

An involn admission must begin with a Form 6 (Admission Order) or a Form 13 (regrade from von to involn). A Renewal Order can only be made in respect of someone already involuntarily detained. So yes, someone could be counted in the Renewal Order column and the Form 6 or Form 13 columns.

In addition, it is possible, but rare enough, that one person could be in both the Form 6 or Form 13 columns (ie. if they are initially involunarily admitted, regraded back to a voluntary patient - because they agree to stay voluntarily - and then regraded again to involuntary - if they deteriorate again).

As i said earlier, the numbers in the Form 6 or Form 13 columns (around 2100) probably reflects <2100 individuals as some will have been admitted on a number of occasions in one calendar year; but the number of people who are admittedly repeatedly is likely to be relatively small number. I would hazard a guess that the 2100 admissions probably reflects about 1500 individual patients (but Sam as a practicing psychiatrist can probably give a better estimate).


Im sure its as clear as mud now!:mad:

In fairness, your second point should have been obvious to my stupid head!

Those figures are disturbing, though. At least, they are to someone like myself with no knowledge of how they compare to other oecd countries.

sam34

irishh_bob wrote: »

believe it or not , i actually quoted that figure ( as reported by you on several occasions on this site ) to my GP not too long ago , he laughed and said that was the biggest load of nonesense he ever heard , according to this man ( over 25 years a GP ) , thier are nowhere near 400 people per year detained against thier will in this country let alone 4000

he may want to have a look at the mental health commissions website then, which provides the stats.

i'm not into making up random numbers for the sake of argument. facts are facts.

irishh_bob

sam34 wrote: »

he may want to have a look at the mental health commissions website then, which provides the stats.

i'm not into making up random numbers for the sake of argument. facts are facts.

lies lies and damn statistics

Pace2008

irishh_bob wrote: »

lies lies and damn statistics

Haven't looked for it myself, but if it's a straight-up figure for patients committed, and not some inaccurate extrapolation or misleading percentage, you can't just flippantly dismiss it because it's a "statistic."

irishh_bob

Rubik. wrote: »

From the HRB website - 20,195 people were admitted to psychiatric hospitals last year, 10% of those admissions were involuntary. I assume the other 2,000, or so, were already in the system.

(I didn't provide a link because it has a horribly long address)

im talking about people who are detained permanently against their will , not those who are taken in on a friday ( due to suicidal risk etc ) and let back out on saturday morning

SAM ( disengeniously ) threw out the figure of 4000 several months back when i was making the point that its almost impossible to be institutionalised against your will any more in this country , permanently , unless you commit a serious act of violence if not litterally kill someone

context

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

I suppose it depends on the context and why your gp thought you were asking.

The idea as Sam implies is that you do not need to have a mental illness to feel awful because of a temporary situation in your life but if you do accessing the services is not going to get you detained. Its common sense to look for help if you are thinking of self harm as a panacea for lifes problems.

oh my GP knew exactly what i was asking as he has been trying to get a cousin of mine sectioned for over three years , this cousin of mine believes several of his neighbours are possessed by the devil , tells anyone who will listen that jesus told him the lisbon treaty was the work of satan , has terrified several of his neighbours and has made his two sisters exiles from the home in which they grew up , yet the powers that be in the HSE refuse to allow him be detained for even one night

you see , thier was a time in this country when people were sent to the big house for the most trivial of matters but the pendelum has now completley swung the other way , the system is completley and utterley dominated by PC liberal idealogues ( like SAM ) who believe it to be a gross human rights abuse to strip anyone ( no matter how crazy) of their freedom , moves are underway to eventually close every mental hospital in the country and relase all patients , its known as CARE IN THE COMMUNITY , this moronic programme aims to decentralise mental health services and put in place a number of localised clinics where both mary from drogheda with post natal depression and johny from mullingar who believes napolean is his postman can show up every week for a nice caring chat from some wooly liberal do - gooder shrink

pie in the sky stuff

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

pie in the sky stuff

If you look up the page a wee bit, you'll see me asking you what you would realistically do different. You didn't reply.

So is this just a rant on your part?

drkpower

irishh_bob wrote: »

im talking about people who are detained permanently against their will , not those who are taken in on a friday ( due to suicidal risk etc ) and let back out on saturday morning

Seriously, you are just trolling now, and badly at that.

1. Someone detained against their will on Friday and released soon after is still detained against their will; and that was the figure that Sam was referring to.

2. Oh, so now you are asking how many people are detained permanently, as in forever, as in never ever released.....?!!? Is that really what you were discussing earlier on....?:rolleyes: Yes, that would be exceedingly rare, certainly a tiny fraction of 400 per year, a figure your GP supposedly quoted you..... (did you ever have this discussion with your GP or are you making it up....?)

3. And in any case, how can you have an annual figure of 'people admitted permanently/forever'; those figures could only ever be compiled after the person dies in a psychiatric Hospital.

Seriously, your points are embarrassing; and they make your GP sound like an idiot. But I doubt that it is him to blame...

sam34

irishh_bob wrote: »

you see , thier was a time in this country when people were sent to the big house for the most trivial of matters but the pendelum has now completley swung the other way , the system is completley and utterley dominated by PC liberal idealogues ( like SAM ) who believe it to be a gross human rights abuse to strip anyone ( no matter how crazy) of their freedom

i dont know why i respond to such blatant rubbish, but anyway, here goes...

contrary to your estremely well-formed opinion, i dont believe it to be an abuse of human rights to detain someone against their will. i detain people against their will every day of the week.

believing that such detention should be done legally and should be medically necessary does not make me a "PC liberal".

irishh_bob wrote: »

moves are underway to eventually close every mental hospital in the country and relase all patients

rubbish.

there will always be a need for involuntary psychiatric admissions, and there certainly are no moves underway to close every admission unit in the country. :rolleyes:

sam34

drkpower wrote: »

2. Oh, so now you are asking how many people are detained permanently, as in forever, as in never ever released.....?!!? Is that really what you were discussing earlier on....?:rolleyes:

of course it wasnt what he was discussing earlier on, but when hard facts dispelled his empty rhetoric he came along trying to change the goalposts.:rolleyes:

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

im talking about people who are detained permanently against their will , not those who are taken in on a friday ( due to suicidal risk etc ) and let back out on saturday morning

SAM ( disengeniously ) threw out the figure of 4000 several months back when i was making the point that its almost impossible to be institutionalised against your will any more in this country , permanently , unless you commit a serious act of violence if not litterally kill someone

context

A lot off topic there Bob.

How does that relate to the suicide discussion.

It is a fairly good thing that there are controls to stop people being institutionalised because they are odd or eccentric.

If you think about it your cousin also have rights that need to be protected. Some years back my father visited an elderly friend in hospital and the reason he was there was that relatives were trying to get control of his assets.

So there are 2 sides to the argument and I imagine Sams role is also to protect the rights of those in that position too.

irishh_bob

sam34 wrote: »

i dont know why i respond to such blatant rubbish, but anyway, here goes...

contrary to your estremely well-formed opinion, i dont believe it to be an abuse of human rights to detain someone against their will. i detain people against their will every day of the week.

believing that such detention should be done legally and should be medically necessary does not make me a "PC liberal".


what is medically nescessery when dealing with a psychiatric case is altogether different than when dealing with someone who has a broken leg

its entirely subjective and the majority of head doctors approach psychatric cases ( people who are not fully right ) from a very particular idealogical disposition




rubbish.

there will always be a need for involuntary psychiatric admissions, and there certainly are no moves underway to close every admission unit in the country. :rolleyes:

what is medically nescessery when dealing with a psychiatric case is altogether different than when dealing with someone who has a broken leg

its entirely subjective and the majority of head doctors approach psychatric cases ( people who are not fully right ) from a very particular idealogical disposition

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

A lot off topic there Bob.

How does that relate to the suicide discussion.

It is a fairly good thing that there are controls to stop people being institutionalised because they are odd or eccentric.

so you believe someone shouting at the top of thier voice at an elderly neighbour ( that she has been infiltrated by the devil himself ) is merley ecentric behaviour ???

sam34

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is medically nescessery when dealing with a psychiatric case is altogether different than when dealing with someone who has a broken leg

well, d'oh.

what's medically necessary in maternity care is also different from what's necessary in orthopaedic care.

irishh_bob wrote: »

its entirely subjective and the majority of head doctors approach psychatric cases ( people who are not fully right ) from a very particular idealogical disposition

do they really? the majority? how do you know? can you prove it?

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

so you believe someone shouting at the top of thier voice at an elderly neighbour ( that she has been infiltrated by the devil himself ) is merley ecentric behaviour ???

While I agree it is not normal, I was not there and dont know your cousin.

If it is the case that he is frightening his neighbours then it is a case for the gardai.

By the same token how do we know that he is not a wealthy farmer and you are not trying to take his land ??

irishh_bob

sam34 wrote: »

well, d'oh.

what's medically necessary in maternity care is also different from what's necessary in orthopaedic care.




do they really? the majority? how do you know? can you prove it?

as regards the 1st paragraph

what i meant to say was

when dealing with a broken leg , a medic is dealing with something tangible , thier is no ambiguity in terms of diagnosis , when dealing with psychiatric diagnosis , thier are many shades of grey and many different viewpoints

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

While I agree it is not normal, I was not there and dont know your cousin.

If it is the case that he is frightening his neighbours then it is a case for the gardai.

By the same token how do we know that he is not a wealthy farmer and you are not trying to take his land ??

the gardai were involved but could do nothing , they contacted the local GP and he told them the local psychiatricst would veto any attempt to have my cousin sectioned

as for you sarcastic second statement , my aunt owns a small farm but this cousin of mine has one brother and two sisters so i think im slighly down the line for the throne but sarcasm aside , its funny that you brought such a scenario into the discussion , back in the day , many people were placed inside by family members who had dark motives like getting thier hands on property , many believe that this is a large part of the reason why the reaction to past practice ( regarding institutionalisation ) was so extreme