Suicide is OK

Wolfe Tone

i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do

Jesus wept. No it is not.

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

Good God. I'm amazed people like this even exist anymore.

Mr. Loverman

irishh_bob wrote: »

what if it was a dysfunctional family that causes someone to commit suicide , some familys are not caring an i include the parents , i find your posts extremley simplistic to say the least , not everyone has family who care what happends thier kids , siblings etc

personally speaking , i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do , people who end it are usually very proud high achievers with very high standards for themselves and when they realise thier life is a failure , they choose not to be another regular loser , instead , they turn thier anger or disapointment inwards , better IMO than those who turn thier self loathing outwards and turn to crime drugs, alcohol or other anti social behaviour

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

Hang on.

I agree life makes no sense and pretty much every achievement is pointless (apart from having children to keep the cycle going), but the fact that we have mega strong instincts to keep ourselves alive suggests to me at least that committing suicide means something has gone seriously wrong and is not in any way a positive thing.

metrovelvet

Denerick wrote: »

Good God. I'm amazed people like this even exist anymore.

LOL. That took me a while to get! Very funny.

The Corinthian

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

People who commit suicide are not of sound mind. How could they be? Suicide should never be considered normal, lest we be in a position were it is encouraged, and accepted, as a suitable way to deal with depression, anguish etc.

Historically suicide is not so simple though.

Suicide is not simply limited as an option for those who are 'suicidal', there are other scenarios where even in Western society, with it's Abrahamic moral code, where it is often tacitly condoned or even applauded.

The classic example, documented since the Hellenistic period is suicide for reasons of honour or to protect one's family. Of the latter, the classic example is that of Rommel, who chose suicide so as to protect his family from prosecution and the concentration camps. Of the former, Cato is an example, but one can look to modern history too to see where this form of suicide is condoned or even applauded - after all, the noble gesture of a captain going down with his ship is ultimately suicide. To sacrifice yourself for others is ultimately also suicide too. And many would see practices, such as hunger strike, as effectively suicide - but because it's done for a 'cause' and we can kid ourselves that they would have lived if their demands had been met (no matter how improbable), we sometimes pretend it's not.

Then there is euthanasia as a form of suicide. There, the individual is terminally ill, with no hope of recovery and suicide is chosen as a means of avoiding what is often a very painful end. Anyone who has seen a loved one in the final days of cancer, often completely drugged up and still in great pain, can probably sympathize with this.

The question of the third, and most 'popular', category - the 'suicidal' - is actually far more consistently answered in most cultures. It is interesting to note that even in societies that accept suicide as a valid choice, such as Japan, who will often have forms of ritual suicide for the purpose, to take one's life because you are 'suicidal' is actually not condoned.

In such cases, suicide is as a result of someone who may be suffering from depression, or some other psychological condition that can and should be treated. There it can be cited that the failure to treat this condition is also responsible for the suicide.

However, pretty much in all societies, whether we blame the individual or circumstances, this form of suicide is rejected.

As such, it's not all black and white; we live in a society where we applaud the first form of suicide, often condone the second and condemn the third.

To underline how blurred suicide is, the second and third often overlap. For example, quality of life can be so terrible as to drive someone to suicide. Some who are quadriplegic and on respirators, have little or no hope of an improved life, while living an existence that would be considered intolerable by most. Yet they are not terminally ill. They could continue to live on for decades. As such it becomes difficult to classify them as purely 'suicidal' cases or euthanasia.

So it is important to consider the type of suicide being discussed as our views on it are, in reality, not black or white.

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

metrovelvet

Ticktactoe wrote: »

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

The Kamakiazis were thought to be doing it for honour. I was later told by a historian it was because of petrol shortages. [shrug]

CDfm

I had a thread runing in TGC on International Suicide Day as suicide is one of the top 10 killers of young men

There was some very courageous posting from people for whom it was not an academic topic

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056024821

It is awful and there are alternatives

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

We've argued about this topic before in another thread, and obviously your opinion hasn't changed, nor has mine but going to a 'shrink' isn't about whinging about how much your life sucks. That's one of the most ridiculous and possibly juvenile things I've ever heard in regards to counselling.

Seeking help is brave. It's brave because there's such a huge stigma attached to mental illness that admitting you're a sufferer is incredibly difficult. It's brave because dealing with issues which cause such tremendous hardship in ones life clearly is not going to be easy, and to be prepared to face up to them, and want to make them better is admirable. It's brave because when you feel so awful that you don't even want to get out of bed, even the tiniest of things are huge challenges.

Seeing a counsellor isn't - "My life is shit blah blah blah". I can't believe you actually think that. Why would anyone pay just to have someone listen to them complain? Seriously? Counsellors are immensely beneficial to so many people. I see nothing undignified about therapy at all, and I imagine you're in a very small minority of people who do.

teacher30

alex73 wrote: »

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

Oh my God, i'm trying so so hard not to cringe at your comments.
Selfish? You obviously live a charmed life - aren't you the lucky one never to have been so "far gone" that idea of suicide seemed the only solution.

Not one person gave your comments the "thumbs up" in agreement - that says it all.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

We've argued about this topic before in another thread, and obviously your opinion hasn't changed, nor has mine but going to a 'shrink' isn't about whinging about how much your life sucks. That's one of the most ridiculous and possibly juvenile things I've ever heard in regards to counselling.

Seeking help is brave. It's brave because there's such a huge stigma attached to mental illness that admitting you're a sufferer is incredibly difficult. It's brave because dealing with issues which cause such tremendous hardship in ones life clearly is not going to be easy, and to be prepared to face up to them, and want to make them better is admirable. It's brave because when you feel so awful that you don't even want to get out of bed, even the tiniest of things are huge challenges.

Seeing a counsellor isn't - "My life is shit blah blah blah". I can't believe you actually think that. Why would anyone pay just to have someone listen to them complain? Seriously? Counsellors are immensely beneficial to so many people. I see nothing undignified about therapy at all, and I imagine you're in a very small minority of people who do.

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Giselle

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

Talking about your life is undignified, but causing immeasureable pain to your friends and family is honourable?

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

Frankly whether you 'don't subscribe to this notion' is entirely irrelevant, as there is a large minority of people in the US who believe in the biblical creation story absolutely. They are still stupid and wrong.

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

There is a difference between being unhappy and being mentally ill as in depression etc.

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Not everyone needs or should have counselling but if they need it or want it they should be able to get it and have access to a GP or psychiatrist to help them.

I may be a liitle bit conventional here but being suicidal is counter intuitive and against human nature.

For some people they may dwell on their problems and it could be counterproductive and its why counselling should be GP monitored IMO.

Others with long term conditions are not just unhappy but need drug therapy - so if thats what someone needs there should be no stigma attached to it.

RGDATA!

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

what are you basing your opinion of counselling on? you seem to have misconceptions about how it works.

i can understand the distaste for the idea of therapy some people have. I've known people who seemed to have been in therapy for a long time, to a point where i wondered if it was really doing them any good or was just burning a hole in their pocket.

But if a good friend opened up about a serious problem, that he was possibly on the brink over, you'd hardly shrug your shoulders and say: "There's no point whinging" or actually that you respect people who kill themselves if that's what he wants to do. I'm sure you would support him however you could, and try to help him be constructive about it.

Some people have nobody to get that kind of support from though. More have the support but still nobody with the understanding to really help them help themselves.

Not everyone's going to have a positive experience with counselling all the time, there are so many variables, but I know people who undoubtedly have. I don't anyone should be cynical about it as an option for someone in a desperate position.

For people with nobody to talk to, even going to a doctor they are comfortable with and finally talking to someone about how they're feeling can be a huge step forward.

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Ironically a bit of councelling could do you the world of good.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you ever considered she kept the children with her in the hopes that they would prevent her from committing suicide, but she failed that battle (for whatever reason)? As for your cousin, somehow I expect the driver of the train, those working (& cleaning) the tracks, the police etc would have been affected by his death to various degrees. I can't imagine the sight of a body run over or hit by a train is easier to look at. .

What i honestly think is her plan was to kill them too, but she changed her mind for some unkown reason and thank god she did! i think for a mother to do what she did, in the way she did, is absolutely disgusting and completely unforgiveable. Even if she wasn't thinking clearly, that doesn't render what she done any less horrific. (It could be argued that paedophiles aren't thinking clearly for example, they can't help liking kids, but that reasoning is just not good enough, they're wrong and so was she)
As for my cousin, yes i'm sure it had a big effect on those that found him and so on and that's wrong too, but not to the same degree, we have a duty to protect our loved ones, particularly our kids that just doesn't extend as far as "outsiders". Neither case is right, but one is clearly far more wrong, in my eyes anyway.

irishh_bob wrote: »

personally speaking , i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do , people who end it are usually very proud high achievers with very high standards for themselves and when they realise thier life is a failure , they choose not to be another regular loser , instead , they turn thier anger or disapointment inwards , better IMO than those who turn thier self loathing outwards and turn to crime drugs, alcohol or other anti social behaviour

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

This is absolute rubbish.
There is nothing brave or honorable about it. Struggling through what life throws at you is brave, striving to better those obstacles to help your family particularly your kids is honorable. Sticking a rope around your neck to make the big bad world go away is neither, it's weak. Leaving your kids to find you and basically destroying their childhoods is selfish, evil even. Of the 4 people involved in that particular tragedy, i have no end of sympathy for the kids, absolute admiration for the father who has shown strength of character i don't think i could ever match, and nothing but contempt for the mother. She wasn't brave or noble or anything else, she was just a terrible mother and a terrible human being

CDfm

One of my friends killed himself before the summer.Early 40's. His 14 y/o son was/is devestated and it did not sink in for a while.

As it happened he was one of a cluster of people who knew each other from the same area and socially. There were 4 in total over a few months.3 were parents.

So it is an infectious thing and you cannot really say otherwise.

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Ironically a bit of councelling could do you the world of good.

such wit

irishh_bob

Giselle wrote: »

Talking about your life is undignified, but causing immeasureable pain to your friends and family is honourable?

not everyone had a disney style upbringing , not everyones family was like the waltons , some times , its a persons family who drives someone to suicide , what makes you so sure that all familys grieve for the suicide of a family member , some parents dont give a crap about thier kids ,

i have cousins who have a family member who because of a brain injury suffered as a kid , has made thier life a hell , all his brothers and sisters and even his mom wishes this guy had not survived being hit by a car when he was young , they have told me this , different topic i know but the principal is the same , its naieve to assume that all family situations are conventional and happy and therefore assuming suicide is an inherently selfish act to commit against your closest relatives

i believe the world would be a better place if more people committed suicide , it would remove a lot of dysfunctional and anti social people , as i said earlier , i have more respect for people who turn thier anger and disapointment inwards then those who take it out on society and end up hurting many

irishh_bob

Denerick wrote: »

Frankly whether you 'don't subscribe to this notion' is entirely irrelevant, as there is a large minority of people in the US who believe in the biblical creation story absolutely. They are still stupid and wrong.

such an arrogant post

i dont subscribe to the notion that chiropractors are anything but quacks and con men either yet millions of people the world over swear by them , people are free to subscribe to many theorys , psychiatry is not a perfect science like treating heart disease or lung cancer , thier are many schools of thought among practioners , some dont believe in prescribing anti depressants for instance yet others dole them out like smarties

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

not everyone had a disney style upbringing , not everyones family was like the waltons ,

I actually find this funny - I do, made me laugh.

You sound like someone who feels they were hard done by referring to other peoples lives as fancy cartoons and Tv programmes.

Not all suicide cases are the same.

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

such wit

Such an informative response...

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Such an informative response...

what did you expect , a psychological evaluation , unlike you , i dont do that

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

What i honestly think is her plan was to kill them too, but she changed her mind for some unkown reason and thank god she did!

Bit of a stretch, don't you think? Personally, I think its more likely that she didn't foresee the emotional problems she'd face while the children were there...

Regardless, we're making wild assumptions. (If she was your mother, then I'd withdraw the wild assumptions on your part)

i think for a mother to do what she did, in the way she did, is absolutely disgusting and completely unforgiveable. Even if she wasn't thinking clearly, that doesn't render what she done any less horrific.

Sure, it doesn't remove the impact, but you're being judge and jury on the subject. I'd prefer to keep an element of doubt considering the lack of details on her lifestyle, where the father was, the conditions of their household, the pressures, etc.

Its very easy to solely look at the manner of her death, the children finding the body, and then blaming the whole thing on her. After all, the dead are easy to blame.

(It could be argued that paedophiles aren't thinking clearly for example, they can't help liking kids, but that reasoning is just not good enough, they're wrong and so was she)

Argue away, but IMHO this case is completely and utterly different, as are all the suicides I've heard about. Its obvious you've never had to contemplate ending your life before if you're willing to draw these sort of comparisons.

As for my cousin, yes i'm sure it had a big effect on those that found him and so on and that's wrong too, but not to the same degree, we have a duty to protect our loved ones, particularly our kids that just doesn't extend as far as "outsiders". Neither case is right, but one is clearly far more wrong, in my eyes anyway.

The only difference here is that in the case of the mother, her children found her dead. Whereas for your cousin, it was strangers who had to deal with his death initially.

IF the mother had been found by someone other than the children, would you have such issues about her death?

Struggling through what life throws at you is brave, striving to better those obstacles to help your family particularly your kids is honorable. Sticking a rope around your neck to make the big bad world go away is neither, it's weak. Leaving your kids to find you and basically destroying their childhoods is selfish, evil even. Of the 4 people involved in that particular tragedy, i have no end of sympathy for the kids, absolute admiration for the father who has shown strength of character i don't think i could ever match, and nothing but contempt for the mother. She wasn't brave or noble or anything else, she was just a terrible mother and a terrible human being

I'm curious.... how long were they married, how old were the children, did she work, and what did the dad do during all of this? Was she a decent mother at any stage before her suicide?

Its all very well and good to say that people should put their heads down and work through life, but the reality is that we're often thrown into circumstances which we're badly equipped both emotionally, physically and academically skilled to deal with. Most people can deal with these issues, and move on to something else, but others have to deal with the problem for decades without any end in sight.

Frankly, I feel that the people who declare blankly that there is no excuse/reason for suicide, just can't appreciate that other people have way harder lives than they do..

Denerick

There really isn't any point in responding to posts that contain such disgusting sentiments as Irish Bob. Just ignore him and move on the discussion please.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

There really isn't any point in responding to posts that contain such disgusting sentiments as Irish Bob. Just ignore him and move on the discussion please.

While I get your point, I feel that such sentiments are best challenged, rather than ignored.

Ticktactoe

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Ironically a bit of councelling could do you the world of good.

Ironically, everyone could do with a bit of counseling. Honestly, I got my first session of counseling in my 30's and it helped to clear up a huge number of issues I wasn't aware I actually had, but were still affecting my current lifestyle. I'm particularly pro-active about keeping a positive outlook, usually seeking ways to help my lifestyle like meditation, NLP and self-hypnosis and yet, the counseling helped immeasurably.

So, I tend to recommend it to everyone. I've found the people (that I know) who say they don't need it are the first ones that friends recommend such a session to.

irishh_bob

Deleted User wrote: »

Ironically, everyone could do with a bit of counseling. Honestly, I got my first session of counseling in my 30's and it helped to clear up a huge number of issues I wasn't aware I actually had, but were still affecting my current lifestyle. I'm particularly pro-active about keeping a positive outlook, usually seeking ways to help my lifestyle like meditation, NLP and self-hypnosis and yet, the counseling helped immeasurably.

So, I tend to recommend it to everyone. I've found the people (that I know) who say they don't need it are the first ones that friends recommend such a session to.

i cant think of anything more offensive and arrogant than telling someone they should go see a psychiatricst , its a polite - smug way of saying , i think your nuts