Suicide is OK

Gary L

Suicide. The ultimate cop out. The esc button of life. Is it morally wrong, or simply the exercise of self ownership?

I want to open up a discussion on the potential changes to society if suicide was widely considered normal. I take it for granted that it wont be anytime soon, but lets skip the transition phase and imagine the characteristics of a society where, for example, it had always been ok.

Crazy as this sounds, I think its a life affirming idea. Noone chooses to be born, but what if you have to choose to be alive. For one thing, it would remove the stigma and allow people to discuss the idea prior to the act and allow loved ones the chance to change their minds or at least say goodbye.

I'm stating the obvious now but noone can stop you anyway. I'm begining to wonder if the stigma rises from the general discomfort with the idea of death. Does our inability to accept suicide do any good for people considering it?

Mr. Loverman

I don't think a mentally healthy person or a person who is thinking rationally chooses to kill themselves. There is always some temporary issue messing with their thoughts.

The problem as I see it is the stigma attached with mental illness and feelings such as stress, etc.

As long as people feel they can't openly talk about their emotions there will never be clear and honest discussion about suicide.

For example, a girl in my office killed herself. Everyone pretends it never happened.

alex73

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

charlemont

if someone wants to die its their own choice, but im not in favour of someone with responsibilities using suicide as a way out..

Mr. Loverman

alex73 wrote: »

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

What's wrong with being selfish? The unhappiest people in this world are those who live their lives according to other people's needs.

Personally I think there is a lot more than "selfishness" to a person committing suicide. I have a lot of sympathy for those who have killed themselves. They must have been in horrible pain to do such a thing.

alex73

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

What's wrong with being selfish? The unhappiest people in this world are those who live their lives according to other people's needs.

Personally I think there is a lot more than "selfishness" to a person committing suicide. I have a lot of sympathy for those who have killed themselves. They must have been in horrible pain to do such a thing.

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

This forum is for the sharing of articles/videos/etc., not for general discussion. A topic like this is suited more to forums like Humanities. If anybody would like this topic re-opened and moved there drop me a PM, but for now it's closed.

Edit: Moved to Humanities by request of the OP.

IrishEyes19

alex73 wrote: »

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

I agree, Alex, I think the pain and the "why" questions they leave behind are heart shattering for those they leave behind. However I do have respect for people who kill themselves however, as somebody who decides killing themselves is better than living must be in a very dark place beyond any reach. I truly believe that. If we can compare our bad days, those days that dont go right, to what they must be feeling, at least we can say ok today has been bad, but something inside us tells us, we have get up again and pick up the pieces we have left. I often wonder are those people who feel suicide is the only answer, must be blinded to the support they dont realise is there.

Orginally the question posted. I dont think assisted suicide should ever be legalised here. Firstly there are too many ways to get loopholes in that system and it will be abused and secondly. Having a system which enables assisted suicide would require employing people, and I would like to ask no matter how professional or "comfortable" the procedure is, people have to carry out, people will have to employed to assist in killing other people. I would question their sanity at the end of the day. There is no profession in this country that is legal that actually has people paid to end other peoples lives here. We have doctors and nurses and various staff to help ease pain, dying patients to be comfortable.

I can only imagine the trauma that will occur the day we start paying medical professionals who are trained to save lives, to now help take them. It will be a very sad day in my opinion. No one should have to have the burden of assisting in someones death be it legal or non legal.

Jesus Wept

alex73 wrote: »

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

I can't stand when people say sucide is selfish or cowardly.
No one chose to be born and no one should be obligated to live.

Obviously it is better if people get help and manage to resolve their problems and live happily ever after.
That's not reality and it may not be possible.

To suggest that it is selfish shows that you have absolutely no concept of what somebody who is genuinely suicidal goes through every day.

Your sketism over the existence of mental illness speaks volumes tbh.

Denerick

The rotten sentiments of some here - such as that suicide is a selfish act - is a testament to the grinding stigma of mental illness in this society, and how ignorant some people are of its ramifications on the thought processes of individuals. Call me myopic, but mankind is an insensitive, selfish, careless, feckless and downright offensive beast. Every so often these kind of threads appear and the most stupid opinions on mental health get aired.

mikemac

I'd never say it's selfish.

It's true it will devastate friends and family.
But the people who do it probably feel their loved ones are better off without them. Or maybe they don't have any loved ones in their life or at least don't recognize they do.

So instead of being selfish, they think irrationally it's for the best.

Funglegunk

Denerick wrote: »

The rotten sentiments of some here - such as that suicide is a selfish act - is a testament to the grinding stigma of mental illness in this society, and how ignorant some people are of its ramifications on the thought processes of individuals. Call me myopic, but mankind is an insensitive, selfish, careless, feckless and downright offensive beast. Every so often these kind of threads appear and the most stupid opinions on mental health get aired.

You really can't see the merit of the other side of the argument? You don't agree that someone committing suicide causes direct, lasting and often irreparable harm to the people they love? It darkens their life forever, I've seen it.

It's an admission that your own pain supersedes that of the people you love, and so you are willing to cause others pain to relieve your own. That is why people call it selfish.

stovelid

I've lost people to suicide and while part of me thinks they were selfish purely because I want them back, another part of thinks that judgment it is in itself possibly selfish of me to expect them to continue living a life that was of such torment to them just to assuage others.

It''s a complex issue, especially when parents leave young children behind but I doubt anybody makes the decision to end their life lightly or maybe not even rationally.

CokaColumbo

The deep and awful pain and guilt which is permanently inflicted upon the loved ones of those who kill themselves suggests to me that suicide is never "OK".
It is such a detestable and misguided act that it should never be normalised or deemed a valid alternative to living life as has been suggested above.

That is not to say that we should condemn a person for committing suicide as he/she had their own struggle to contend with and that needs to be taken into account. But we should also maintain in our own minds the reality of what that person did; they quit life and cast a permanently black cloud over the heads of everybody around them, and that is an undeniably selfish thing to do.

Denerick

My point isn't really about suicide at all, its about mental illness. You are expecting the mentally ill to have the same ethical or cognitive thought processes as the sane. This is simply an unfair expectation. To compound this, those who give up are dismissed as selfish and cowardly. No wonder suicide rates in this country are so high, the mentally ill face a disgusting level of social stigma.

Dacelonid

My Brother in Law committed suicide in January and after seeing the effect it had on his family there is no way I could consider it normal.
His mother is absolutely devastated, his dad is a shadow of his former self and has lost all interest in everything and his brothers and sisters are just going through the motions of living.
The whole family has been destroyed, absolutely destroyed. I truly believe that if he could have seen (ala It's a Wonderfull Life type scenario) the effect his suicide would have on his family he wouldn't have gone through with it.

So no I don't think it should be considered normal, and no one who has been touched by suicide would think so. Having said that, I don't think that suicide being a taboo subject helps either. We need to be able to talk to each other about these thing openly. If people (and I especially mean young people) could see the effects suicide have on families then they may think twice.

Addendum:
I am for euthanasia though. I believe that in cases of terminal illness, you should have the right to end your own life to end your suffering.
How does that compare with someone suffering from a mental illness. It is not such a black and white subject, shades of grey I guess. That is why we need to talk about these things.

Pace2008

I think the absolutists who are labelling suicide as categorically selfish are ignoring the utter lack of self-worth felt by many people at the time they take their own lives. It is certainly not always a “cop-out;” in many cases the victim feels they are some toxic burden who radiates misery and grief, and that they are genuinely doing their loved ones a favour by relieving them of their existence. How many suicide notes, I wonder, have within their content the haunting words “You’ll be better off without me?”

Wolfe Tone

Personally I think that suicide is a terrible thing, for everyone involved(obviously) for the person in question, but their family too. One can imagine what parents, wives husbands etc go through when someone close to them does it, could they have helped the person in question more?

I agree that there is a bad attitude towards mental illness, the left overs of the "stiff upper lip" mentality.


Suicide should never be considered "normal". It is a terrible act.

People who commit suicide are not of sound mind. How could they be? Suicide should never be considered normal, lest we be in a position were it is encouraged, and accepted, as a suitable way to deal with depression, anguish etc.

CokaColumbo

Denerick wrote: »

To compound this, those who give up are dismissed as selfish and cowardly. No wonder suicide rates in this country are so high, the mentally ill face a disgusting level of social stigma.

There is no getting away from the fact that suicide is an immeasurably selfish and deplorable act. Just look at the comment after yours which demonstrates the desperate effects which suicide has on loved ones.

Discussing the issue of suicide should not be a problem. The difficulties facing those who feel suicidal should be by all means be brought to light and dialogue should be definitely be fostered. Those who feel suicidal should be helped, given counselling etc.

But under no circumstances should suicide be considered O.K. or normal; in my opinion, it should be viewed as the selfish, horrendous, and misguided act that it is. There is a stigma attached to the act for good reason because it is wrong. It is not a valid alternative to life. That is not to say that mental illness itself should be stigmatised. Its discussion should be promoted and those who are mentally ill should feel free and dignified in their search for help.

We need to focus on the sanctity of all life no matter how lowly that life may be. Normalising suicide is not going to prevent the act nor is it going to help those who feel suicidal. Society should make it explicitly clear that suicide is a terrible act in every way and is not a valid option.
Saying that it is O.K. to kill yourself is not ever going to help mentally ill people to foster self-worth.

Ticktactoe

I am actually in genuine shock reading some of the replies to this thread.
I feel sick reading the threads that say suicide is a selfish act. My God, have you any concept of what that person is going thru? Do you think they do not understand that they have a family, relatives or friends that they are leaving behind and yet they still go ahead with it.
Talk about kicking a man when he is down.

The fact that people call it selfish shows that these people are self obsessed and that they have no concept of the mental state of mind of the victim.

Suicide is not a decision that is taken lightly nor as a 'quick' exit.

As for normalising it, I dont think it would make a difference. People who consider suicide do not think of whether society view it as ok or not but are been tortured with the view of the aftermath and whether it is better or not for them to continue existing.

Denerick

CokaColumbo wrote: »

There is no getting away from the fact that suicide is an immeasurably selfish and deplorable act. Just look at the comment after yours which demonstrates the desperate effects which suicide has on loved ones.

Discussing the issue of suicide should not be a problem. The difficulties facing those who feel suicidal should be by all means be brought to light and dialogue should be definitely be fostered. Those who feel suicidal should be helped, given counselling etc.

But under no circumstances should suicide be considered O.K. or normal; in my opinion, it should be viewed as the selfish, horrendous, and misguided act that it is. There is a stigma attached to the act for good reason because it is wrong. It is not a valid alternative to life. That is not to say that mental illness itself should be stigmatised. Its discussion should be promoted and those who are mentally ill should feel free and dignified in their search for help.

We need to focus on the sanctity of all life no matter how lowly that life may be. Normalising suicide is not going to prevent the act nor is it going to help those who feel suicidal. Society should make it explicitly clear that suicide is a terrible act in every way and is not a valid option.
Saying that it is O.K. to kill yourself is not ever going to help mentally ill people to foster self-worth.

Your just not getting it. Its easy for someone who doesn't have mental illnesses to condemn those who commit suicide. Schizophrenia has a suicide rate of around 40%. Why do you think this is? Partly it is undoubtedly down to the extreme pyschotic trauma of what it must be to live as a schizophrenic. Partly it must also be down to the social stigma associated with the disorder, and the terrible burden these people eventually, one way or the other, place on their families.

To write people who commit suicide off as selfish or in some way cruel is part of the problem and ironically one of the reasons why Irish suicide rates are so high.

I'm not talking about normalising the concept of suicide. I'm saying that those who have suicidal thoughts literally have no outlet, they cannot utter their innermost feelings for fear of extreme social backlash. Continually push people into a corner and they will either lash out or flee. Its our deepest animal instinct, the fight or flight response.

And for the love of God, don't bring up other peoples personal experiences into this. I have family experience in this matter and am as entitled to my opinion as much as anyone else who has went through something like this. I just happened to have concluded that the greater evil at work wasn't the act itself, but the crippling social exclusion and judgementalism that leads to the act. I consider suicide to be a symptom of the greater problem, not the problem itself.

IrishEyes19

alex73 wrote: »

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

It just can't be labelled as selfish. Many people who take their lives at one point in their lives were not unhappy and would never have imagined what would happen.
The thing about suicide is, it isn't a selfish action, because its a case where that poor person is so lost in life, they can't even see whats out there for them. Its a tragedy, not a selfish act.

seamus

I've never understood the "selfish" argument tbh. As if death is a great gift and someone who dies is being "selfish" instead of struggling on like the rest of us.

I say "struggling on" in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way because I can't imagine anything greater than being alive and I feel that if you're struggling through life, then you're probably doing it wrong. That's not to say that it's specifically the person's fault, but I don't believe that anyone (save perhaps terminal illness or paraplegia) can be in such a horrible place that death is better than sorting yourself out and fixing your problems.

But then I've never been so low as to feel that obstacles are insurmountable and unending, so it sounds easy to say. Depression in general is down to chemical imbalance. And in much the same way that when I'm drunk I would *like* walk straight and I can remember walking straight I simply cannot do it, I can imagine it is much the same for people with depression - that they can remember being happy and would like to get back there, but they are simply unable, a slave to their chemistry.

So they need help from others.

I don't think that anyone who was otherwise healthy would rationally choose death over life. Life isn't bad.

I've also heard an argument that if suicide was "normal" then there'd be no-one left. Which is nonsense obviously. The suicide rate wouldn't change. I reckon it might even drop if people are more open to discussing it.

The whole problem is multi-faceted. On one hand, you have the "Never tell anyone your problems" attitude which makes people with mental illnesses feel ashamed about who they are and discussing their problems.
On the opposite side you have people who don't know depression (like me) who view it as minor illness, overdiagnosed and that basically people who are depressed just need to cop on, get out and do a bit of exercise and stop being so moany.

And this is true to a certain extent because we've used the blanket term Depression to refer to a massive range of problems from someone who is suffering from a genuine serious medical/psychological condition, to someone who's a bit bored and having a tough time in work and is down in the dumps a little bit.

On the topic, the main problem with "legalising" suicide is the control measures around it. In order to avoid confusion and allow for painless, comforting and "nice" suicide, obviously you would put a formal legal procedure in place. One of the requirements of this procedure would be an assessment that the individual is of a sound mind to make this decision for themselves. Otherwise you're just encouraging delirious people to make mistakes.
This is the stumbling block - most people would argue that someone contemplating death when they're otherwise not likely to die anytime soon cannot be of sound mind.

Mountjoy Mugger

"You can never really know a man until you walk in his shoes"

Suicide is a very personal thing, and is going to be complete down to the individuals circumstances. These declarations that suicide is selfish ignore this aspect instead relegating all suicides into a much more easily handled and dismissed category.

I've had two friends commit suicide in the last 25 years. I, myself, seriously considered it at one stage during my early twenties (I'm 33 now). My reasons for considering such an action were light years different their circumstances and the pressures they had to endure for years. Frankly, anyone throwing out the selfish card hasn't had to face the temptation of suicide themselves.

I got past my temptation and its highly unlikely that I'll consider it again. Simply put because I hit rock bottom, and realized that things could actually get better. And day by day they have. And that's the promise for my future. But I recognize that others will face their own problems, and not come to that realization.

sbsquarepants

In my opinion the method and circumstances are what determin how selfish an act it is, i think it's always selfish to an extent though.
A very good friend of mine's ex girlfriend committed suicide about 7 or 8 years ago, leaving their 2 kids (5 and 8)to find her body hanging from the bannisters. To say it devastated all of them is a massive understatement. To be quite honest i think what she done is unforgiveable. It was selfish, extremely so, and especially so in leaving the kids to find her (they were supposed to be with their father but she deliberately kept them)
Now, i know the girl must have been in some sort of turmoil to do this, but it doesn't change the effect it had and continues to have. She was a very selfish person by nature, in life and in death. She had seen first hand the effect that suicide has on a family (her sister had committed suicide 10 or 12 years previously) To do that to your kids is horrific and i feel very little sympathy for her. I can't understand how they don't all despise her to be honest.
In contrast, my own cousin also committed suicide, he was a heroin addict and his father had been murdered in a mugging 1 week prior to him doing it. He threw himself under a train in the middle of nowhere. I feel quite a bit of sympathy for him, he wasn't strong enough to deal with what life had thrown at him and just wanted out. He didn't plot and scheme to destroy others in the process. I think that's a very important distinction. The family were devastated of course, but not to the same extent and that's a fact.

sbsquarepants

sbsquarepants wrote: »

In my opinion the method and circumstances are what determin how selfish an act it is, i think it's always selfish to an extent though.

Doing anything at all which has any involvement with other people is always going to be somewhat selfish. It comes down to imposed "responsibilities" that other people place on us every day of our lives.

Now, i know the girl must have been in some sort of turmoil to do this, but it doesn't change the effect it had and continues to have. She was a very selfish person by nature, in life and in death. She had seen first hand the effect that suicide has on a family (her sister had committed suicide 10 or 12 years previously) To do that to your kids is horrific and i feel very little sympathy for her. I can't understand how they don't all despise her to be honest.

And yet, you don't post like you do know. There is nothing reasonable about pain, depression, desperation, etc. Even putting words to them removes the impact of feeling those sensations for yourself. And then comes the expectation that anyone feeling those emotions should be able to think rationally, and to protect other people...

The thing is that you don't know what she was feeling. You don't know the state of her mind, or the level of support (or lack of thereof) within the family. There's a tendency to assume that anybody that fails the "mundane" activities of life is worse that those that commit suicide for the biggest of reasons. And yet, in many ways, its the mundane activities that are far worse because there is no end to them since they have to be done every day into infinity.

Have you ever considered she kept the children with her in the hopes that they would prevent her from committing suicide, but she failed that battle (for whatever reason)? As for your cousin, somehow I expect the driver of the train, those working (& cleaning) the tracks, the police etc would have been affected by his death to various degrees. I can't imagine the sight of a body run over or hit by a train is easier to look at. Personally I feel that anyone choosing these forms of suicide, were looking to make a statement. They're both rather loud.. There are quicker, easier, and much quieter ways to die that these... And hanging? Way too many things that could go wrong.. that could easily be the most painful of the lot depending on how its done. <Shudders>

-- The thing is that we make assumptions about people all the time. Why they're dating, what does he do to support that car, why is her hair like that.. etc. And lastly we make assumptions about peoples deaths, and why... And yet, we don't have very much "fact" to go on. Even our own perceptions/observations are flawed due to our own personalities, and memories become tainted over time, slightly changing to suit ourselves.

When I think about people who have committed suicide, I don't think about the people left behind... I feel sympathy for the people who find themselves in a rut that cannot be left behind. The people left behind still have their own lives to lead, and this "incident" can serve as a way of helping them in the future.

CokaColumbo

Denerick wrote: »

Your just not getting it. Its easy for someone who doesn't have mental illnesses to condemn those who commit suicide. Schizophrenia has a suicide rate of around 40%. Why do you think this is? Partly it is undoubtedly down to the extreme pyschotic trauma of what it must be to live as a schizophrenic. Partly it must also be down to the social stigma associated with the disorder, and the terrible burden these people eventually, one way or the other, place on their families.

To write people who commit suicide off as selfish or in some way cruel is part of the problem and ironically one of the reasons why Irish suicide rates are so high.

I'm not talking about normalising the concept of suicide. I'm saying that those who have suicidal thoughts literally have no outlet, they cannot utter their innermost feelings for fear of extreme social backlash. Continually push people into a corner and they will either lash out or flee. Its our deepest animal instinct, the fight or flight response.

And for the love of God, don't bring up other peoples personal experiences into this. I have family experience in this matter and am as entitled to my opinion as much as anyone else who has went through something like this. I just happened to have concluded that the greater evil at work wasn't the act itself, but the crippling social exclusion and judgementalism that leads to the act. I consider suicide to be a symptom of the greater problem, not the problem itself.

Ticktactoe wrote: »

I am actually in genuine shock reading some of the replies to this thread.
I feel sick reading the threads that say suicide is a selfish act. My God, have you any concept of what that person is going thru? Do you think they do not understand that they have a family, relatives or friends that they are leaving behind and yet they still go ahead with it.
Talk about kicking a man when he is down.

The fact that people call it selfish shows that these people are self obsessed and that they have no concept of the mental state of mind of the victim.

Suicide is not a decision that is taken lightly nor as a 'quick' exit.

As for normalising it, I dont think it would make a difference. People who consider suicide do not think of whether society view it as ok or not but are been tortured with the view of the aftermath and whether it is better or not for them to continue existing.

People who point out the simple truth that suicide is massively selfish, as individuals who have been personally affected by it have repeatedly and explicitly demonstrated, does not mean that we "write" people who commit suicide "off" and close our minds to what mentally ill people are going through. We are not self-obsessed but instead simply understand that normalising suicide is not going to bring down suicide statistics nor it is going to alter the nature of the act.

You can see the badness of the act whilst at the same time acknowledging the pain and depression with which somebody with mental illness is afflicted. Just because I call a spade a spade, does not mean that I want suicidal people to remain in the shadows. I for one promote the increase in discussion of mental illness; I do not wish to refuse people an outlet to talk about their emotions; the arrogance of those who accuse us of this is self-evident.

And we are perfectly entitled to bring up people's personal experiences for it is through these experiences that the unalterable nature and effect of suicide is best demonstrated. We can have sympathy for the personal struggle of those who deal with mental illness and who do take their own lives, but the destructive impact which the act itself has on families, families who never ever recover from and who torn apart by the pain, should not be suppressed and those who highlight it should not be condemned as inhuman.

CokaColumbo

CokaColumbo wrote: »

We can have sympathy for the personal struggle of those who deal with mental illness and who do take their own lives, but the destructive impact which the act itself has on families, families who never ever recover from and who torn apart by the pain, should not be suppressed and those who highlight it should not be condemned as inhuman.

Agreed.

professore

On the original question, yes, in a rational society I think that if someone wants to commit suicide and is not suffering from depression, excessive stress, or some other mental illness, then they should be allowed to. Note that I think that the percentage of people in this category is close to zero. I think if people were able to talk more openly about suicidal thoughts we would be able to help a lot more of them.

I would also say to the selfish argument that that judgement is itself selfish. You can't know what is going on in another's mind. A classmate of mine years ago committed suicide. He was sporty and every girl in the town was after him. He was outgoing and seemed full of the joys of life. His parents were wealthy and he seemed fairly normal and well adjusted to us, although once I remember he showed a violent streak which surprised everyone. He never once mentioned to anyone of a desire to commit suicide. Would I say he was selfish ? Never. Mental problems ? Most definitely yes. Maybe he mentioned it to someone and they said "what a selfish thing to do" and he bottled whatever was bugging him up inside him.

irishh_bob

alex73 wrote: »

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

what if it was a dysfunctional family that causes someone to commit suicide , some familys are not caring an i include the parents , i find your posts extremley simplistic to say the least , not everyone has family who care what happends thier kids , siblings etc

personally speaking , i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do , people who end it are usually very proud high achievers with very high standards for themselves and when they realise thier life is a failure , they choose not to be another regular loser , instead , they turn thier anger or disapointment inwards , better IMO than those who turn thier self loathing outwards and turn to crime drugs, alcohol or other anti social behaviour

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

Wolfe Tone

i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do

Jesus wept. No it is not.

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

Good God. I'm amazed people like this even exist anymore.

Mr. Loverman

irishh_bob wrote: »

what if it was a dysfunctional family that causes someone to commit suicide , some familys are not caring an i include the parents , i find your posts extremley simplistic to say the least , not everyone has family who care what happends thier kids , siblings etc

personally speaking , i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do , people who end it are usually very proud high achievers with very high standards for themselves and when they realise thier life is a failure , they choose not to be another regular loser , instead , they turn thier anger or disapointment inwards , better IMO than those who turn thier self loathing outwards and turn to crime drugs, alcohol or other anti social behaviour

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

Hang on.

I agree life makes no sense and pretty much every achievement is pointless (apart from having children to keep the cycle going), but the fact that we have mega strong instincts to keep ourselves alive suggests to me at least that committing suicide means something has gone seriously wrong and is not in any way a positive thing.

metrovelvet

Denerick wrote: »

Good God. I'm amazed people like this even exist anymore.

LOL. That took me a while to get! Very funny.

The Corinthian

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

People who commit suicide are not of sound mind. How could they be? Suicide should never be considered normal, lest we be in a position were it is encouraged, and accepted, as a suitable way to deal with depression, anguish etc.

Historically suicide is not so simple though.

Suicide is not simply limited as an option for those who are 'suicidal', there are other scenarios where even in Western society, with it's Abrahamic moral code, where it is often tacitly condoned or even applauded.

The classic example, documented since the Hellenistic period is suicide for reasons of honour or to protect one's family. Of the latter, the classic example is that of Rommel, who chose suicide so as to protect his family from prosecution and the concentration camps. Of the former, Cato is an example, but one can look to modern history too to see where this form of suicide is condoned or even applauded - after all, the noble gesture of a captain going down with his ship is ultimately suicide. To sacrifice yourself for others is ultimately also suicide too. And many would see practices, such as hunger strike, as effectively suicide - but because it's done for a 'cause' and we can kid ourselves that they would have lived if their demands had been met (no matter how improbable), we sometimes pretend it's not.

Then there is euthanasia as a form of suicide. There, the individual is terminally ill, with no hope of recovery and suicide is chosen as a means of avoiding what is often a very painful end. Anyone who has seen a loved one in the final days of cancer, often completely drugged up and still in great pain, can probably sympathize with this.

The question of the third, and most 'popular', category - the 'suicidal' - is actually far more consistently answered in most cultures. It is interesting to note that even in societies that accept suicide as a valid choice, such as Japan, who will often have forms of ritual suicide for the purpose, to take one's life because you are 'suicidal' is actually not condoned.

In such cases, suicide is as a result of someone who may be suffering from depression, or some other psychological condition that can and should be treated. There it can be cited that the failure to treat this condition is also responsible for the suicide.

However, pretty much in all societies, whether we blame the individual or circumstances, this form of suicide is rejected.

As such, it's not all black and white; we live in a society where we applaud the first form of suicide, often condone the second and condemn the third.

To underline how blurred suicide is, the second and third often overlap. For example, quality of life can be so terrible as to drive someone to suicide. Some who are quadriplegic and on respirators, have little or no hope of an improved life, while living an existence that would be considered intolerable by most. Yet they are not terminally ill. They could continue to live on for decades. As such it becomes difficult to classify them as purely 'suicidal' cases or euthanasia.

So it is important to consider the type of suicide being discussed as our views on it are, in reality, not black or white.

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

metrovelvet

Ticktactoe wrote: »

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

The Kamakiazis were thought to be doing it for honour. I was later told by a historian it was because of petrol shortages. [shrug]

CDfm

I had a thread runing in TGC on International Suicide Day as suicide is one of the top 10 killers of young men

There was some very courageous posting from people for whom it was not an academic topic

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056024821

It is awful and there are alternatives

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

I dont agree with this.

There is nothing honorable about suicide. The most brave thing to do is to refrain from committing suicide or seek help. Thats honorable.

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

We've argued about this topic before in another thread, and obviously your opinion hasn't changed, nor has mine but going to a 'shrink' isn't about whinging about how much your life sucks. That's one of the most ridiculous and possibly juvenile things I've ever heard in regards to counselling.

Seeking help is brave. It's brave because there's such a huge stigma attached to mental illness that admitting you're a sufferer is incredibly difficult. It's brave because dealing with issues which cause such tremendous hardship in ones life clearly is not going to be easy, and to be prepared to face up to them, and want to make them better is admirable. It's brave because when you feel so awful that you don't even want to get out of bed, even the tiniest of things are huge challenges.

Seeing a counsellor isn't - "My life is shit blah blah blah". I can't believe you actually think that. Why would anyone pay just to have someone listen to them complain? Seriously? Counsellors are immensely beneficial to so many people. I see nothing undignified about therapy at all, and I imagine you're in a very small minority of people who do.

teacher30

alex73 wrote: »

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

Oh my God, i'm trying so so hard not to cringe at your comments.
Selfish? You obviously live a charmed life - aren't you the lucky one never to have been so "far gone" that idea of suicide seemed the only solution.

Not one person gave your comments the "thumbs up" in agreement - that says it all.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

We've argued about this topic before in another thread, and obviously your opinion hasn't changed, nor has mine but going to a 'shrink' isn't about whinging about how much your life sucks. That's one of the most ridiculous and possibly juvenile things I've ever heard in regards to counselling.

Seeking help is brave. It's brave because there's such a huge stigma attached to mental illness that admitting you're a sufferer is incredibly difficult. It's brave because dealing with issues which cause such tremendous hardship in ones life clearly is not going to be easy, and to be prepared to face up to them, and want to make them better is admirable. It's brave because when you feel so awful that you don't even want to get out of bed, even the tiniest of things are huge challenges.

Seeing a counsellor isn't - "My life is shit blah blah blah". I can't believe you actually think that. Why would anyone pay just to have someone listen to them complain? Seriously? Counsellors are immensely beneficial to so many people. I see nothing undignified about therapy at all, and I imagine you're in a very small minority of people who do.

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Giselle

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

Talking about your life is undignified, but causing immeasureable pain to your friends and family is honourable?

Denerick

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

Frankly whether you 'don't subscribe to this notion' is entirely irrelevant, as there is a large minority of people in the US who believe in the biblical creation story absolutely. They are still stupid and wrong.

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

There is a difference between being unhappy and being mentally ill as in depression etc.

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Not everyone needs or should have counselling but if they need it or want it they should be able to get it and have access to a GP or psychiatrist to help them.

I may be a liitle bit conventional here but being suicidal is counter intuitive and against human nature.

For some people they may dwell on their problems and it could be counterproductive and its why counselling should be GP monitored IMO.

Others with long term conditions are not just unhappy but need drug therapy - so if thats what someone needs there should be no stigma attached to it.

RGDATA!

irishh_bob wrote: »

being unhappy isnt a form of illness in my book , someone who is mistreated as a child or as a worker etc ( workplace bullying ) is not mentally ill , they are unhappy due to circumstances in thier life , i dont subscribe to this notion that people become ill in the head all of a sudden

also , i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

what are you basing your opinion of counselling on? you seem to have misconceptions about how it works.

i can understand the distaste for the idea of therapy some people have. I've known people who seemed to have been in therapy for a long time, to a point where i wondered if it was really doing them any good or was just burning a hole in their pocket.

But if a good friend opened up about a serious problem, that he was possibly on the brink over, you'd hardly shrug your shoulders and say: "There's no point whinging" or actually that you respect people who kill themselves if that's what he wants to do. I'm sure you would support him however you could, and try to help him be constructive about it.

Some people have nobody to get that kind of support from though. More have the support but still nobody with the understanding to really help them help themselves.

Not everyone's going to have a positive experience with counselling all the time, there are so many variables, but I know people who undoubtedly have. I don't anyone should be cynical about it as an option for someone in a desperate position.

For people with nobody to talk to, even going to a doctor they are comfortable with and finally talking to someone about how they're feeling can be a huge step forward.

Ticktactoe

irishh_bob wrote: »

i dont believe counsellors are beneficial to unhappy people , i dont believe that delving deeper into what brought about a persons unhappiness is a good thing , if a person was mistreated as a child or mistreated as an adult , thier is no great mystey to it which needs disecting endlessly

Ironically a bit of councelling could do you the world of good.

sbsquarepants

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you ever considered she kept the children with her in the hopes that they would prevent her from committing suicide, but she failed that battle (for whatever reason)? As for your cousin, somehow I expect the driver of the train, those working (& cleaning) the tracks, the police etc would have been affected by his death to various degrees. I can't imagine the sight of a body run over or hit by a train is easier to look at. .

What i honestly think is her plan was to kill them too, but she changed her mind for some unkown reason and thank god she did! i think for a mother to do what she did, in the way she did, is absolutely disgusting and completely unforgiveable. Even if she wasn't thinking clearly, that doesn't render what she done any less horrific. (It could be argued that paedophiles aren't thinking clearly for example, they can't help liking kids, but that reasoning is just not good enough, they're wrong and so was she)
As for my cousin, yes i'm sure it had a big effect on those that found him and so on and that's wrong too, but not to the same degree, we have a duty to protect our loved ones, particularly our kids that just doesn't extend as far as "outsiders". Neither case is right, but one is clearly far more wrong, in my eyes anyway.

irishh_bob wrote: »

personally speaking , i believe committing suicide is an extremley brave and honorable thing to do , people who end it are usually very proud high achievers with very high standards for themselves and when they realise thier life is a failure , they choose not to be another regular loser , instead , they turn thier anger or disapointment inwards , better IMO than those who turn thier self loathing outwards and turn to crime drugs, alcohol or other anti social behaviour

i respect the fact that those who commit suicide decide to depart the stage on thier own terms instead of becoming another monotonous bore who lies on a couch each week telling some disinterested head doctor about how they were,nt loved enough while growing up and afterwards heads to the local drug store for a months supply of happy pills

This is absolute rubbish.
There is nothing brave or honorable about it. Struggling through what life throws at you is brave, striving to better those obstacles to help your family particularly your kids is honorable. Sticking a rope around your neck to make the big bad world go away is neither, it's weak. Leaving your kids to find you and basically destroying their childhoods is selfish, evil even. Of the 4 people involved in that particular tragedy, i have no end of sympathy for the kids, absolute admiration for the father who has shown strength of character i don't think i could ever match, and nothing but contempt for the mother. She wasn't brave or noble or anything else, she was just a terrible mother and a terrible human being

CDfm

One of my friends killed himself before the summer.Early 40's. His 14 y/o son was/is devestated and it did not sink in for a while.

As it happened he was one of a cluster of people who knew each other from the same area and socially. There were 4 in total over a few months.3 were parents.

So it is an infectious thing and you cannot really say otherwise.

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Ironically a bit of councelling could do you the world of good.

such wit