Suicide is OK

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

i cant think of anything more offensive and arrogant than telling someone they should go see a psychiatricst , its a polite - smug way of saying , i think your nuts

It's also offensive to assume that people who see a psychiatrist or a counsellor are 'nuts'. Being mentally ill, or just needing a little help with things which are unsettling in your life doesn't necessarily mean that you're crazy.

metrovelvet

I think both are offensive.

To tell someone to see a shrink or to tell someone they are crazy. It also implies that you dont really think they are crazy, you are just mad at them because they dont see things your way. You might say someone to take a laxitive or see a rectal surgeon to get the pole out of their ass, but if it turned out they really were in pain or had bowel disease, you'd be really ****ing embarrassed, that is if you are a normal person.

Sardonicat

irishh_bob wrote: »

i cant think of anything more offensive and arrogant than telling someone they should go see a psychiatricst , its a polite - smug way of saying , i think your nuts

No, you would rather wait for their mental illness to take such a hold on them that they end their own lives, at which point you insult them by calling them selfish!

Your comprehesion of the reality of being in the grip of depressive episode and mental illness in general ("nuts", it's an "insult" to suggest professiona advice) is ignorant and a key example of why so many people do not seek out help of any kind.

Count yourself lucky that you cannot comprehend the mindset of someone who took their own lives. I don't think you'd ever want to go there.

Denerick

Irish Bob is part of this societies problem. He is a symptom of the thoughtless idiocy in this country that drives scores of young people to take their own life. This horrendous macho culture should be driven out and the barbarians who still pound their fists on the table should be told to suck a lemon.

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

i cant think of anything more offensive and arrogant than telling someone they should go see a psychiatricst , its a polite - smug way of saying , i think your nuts

I don't think I'm nuts. I know I think very different than just about everyone I have met, but am I nuts? Nope. Just another manner of thinking. Another manner of dealing with the pressures of life. Is there one preferred manner to do this? Nope. And counsellors will not seek to suggest such either.

Your post reminds me of a similar attitude I had before I went to counseling. Basically, I didn't have a friggin clue of what it entailed beyond what I had seen in some Hollywood movie. Seriously, try a session before you form concrete opinions on the subject.

Should be noted I didn't say anything about you being crazy. I suggested this for everyone regardless of their supposed mental state.

Wolfe Tone

Denerick wrote: »

Irish Bob is part of this societies problem. He is a symptom of the thoughtless idiocy in this country that drives scores of young people to take their own life. This horrendous macho culture should be driven out and the barbarians who still pound their fists on the table should be told to suck a lemon.

Exactly, hence why it shouldn't be ignored.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think I'm nuts. I know I think very different than just about everyone I have met, but am I nuts? Nope. Just another manner of thinking. Another manner of dealing with the pressures of life. Is there one preferred manner to do this? Nope. And counsellors will not seek to suggest such either.

Your post reminds me of a similar attitude I had before I went to counseling. Basically, I didn't have a friggin clue of what it entailed beyond what I had seen in some Hollywood movie. Seriously, try a session before you form concrete opinions on the subject.

Should be noted I didn't say anything about you being crazy. I suggested this for everyone regardless of their supposed mental state.

In NY middle classes nearly everyone has a shrink, an accountant, and a lawyer. It's just part of life there. Modernity is stressful and it can drive people to stages where they cant cope, or they need someone to help them grow or manage boundaries in their life.

Everyone has pains and everyone has wounds. Not everyone has learned how to heal them or manage them or how to see a future when all you can see is a black hole or a life of interminable dread.

I dont believe that everyone is 'sane' all the time. I think everyone has moments of pathology at some point, even if it only lasts for 10 minutes. No one is immune to it, just like no one is immune to the common cold.

CDfm

OK not everyone needs a psychiatrist but some people may do others are more robust or may not have life experiences or conditions that require one.

Its not a requirement for everyone.

But if a person is consistantly unhappy, or self harming or has suicidal thoughts then seeing a doctor or psychiatrist about it would probably be a good idea to improve the quality of their life.

I am kind of neutral on it but I have one or two good friends that I would mull over personal stuff with. I also have a great GP that if I was feeling crap I feel I could talk things over with her.(Well we discussed prostate tests-so anything else would be easier )

So pride would be a very stupid reason in my book for not seeking professional help. The HSE have free facilities nationwide listed here

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Mental_Health_Services/

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

OK not everyone needs a psychiatrist but some people may do others are more robust or may not have life experiences or conditions that require one.

Its not a requirement for everyone.

But if a person is consistantly unhappy, or self harming or has suicidal thoughts then seeing a doctor or psychiatrist about it would probably be a good idea to improve the quality of their life.

I often wonder why there's such a minimum of emphasis on preventative medicine in this country, instead there has to be problem before anything is done..

What I have spoken about in regards to counseling was not something I needed to do. I'd already had my meltdown in my twenties, and I hadn't felt that way again once I finished with that manner of life. Going to counseling is just something that improves people. A few of my close friends have gone to a few sessions since I went, and they all have gained a some measure of calm (for whatever reason). They're not going every weekend and neither am I. I have had a grand total of 10 sessions in the last 3 years.. my friends have averaged 4.. Not exactly a large commitment of time considering the possible benefits.

And honestly, I wish to God that I had been sent to counseling as a child just as part of normal life. I believe every child/teen should be.

How many of ye have actually been to a single counseling session (never mind the reasons)?

CDfm

Good for you Klaz -you grabbed the issue and ran with it.

I have a friend who is really into his greyhounds and you could say it is his passion. A lovely man.

At the start of the day he feeds and walks them etc.They give him joy. Other friends play golf or are in musical societies etc.

Anyway, their priorities and what makes them happy are different.

Lots of people muddle true life & I sometimes do the pretend foodie thing. My treat is chocolate fudge cake and home made ice cream. I once called the owner of a few resteraunts who I know complaining that the recipe in one of his places had changed. It had ,for the worse as it happens, but it was an excuse to call him up and a subsequent chocolate cake tasting one thursday after noon was earth shatteringly good.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

OK not everyone needs a psychiatrist but some people may do others are more robust or may not have life experiences or conditions that require one.

Its not a requirement for everyone.

But if a person is consistantly unhappy, or self harming or has suicidal thoughts then seeing a doctor or psychiatrist about it would probably be a good idea to improve the quality of their life.

I am kind of neutral on it but I have one or two good friends that I would mull over personal stuff with. I also have a great GP that if I was feeling crap I feel I could talk things over with her.(Well we discussed prostate tests-so anything else would be easier )

So pride would be a very stupid reason in my book for not seeking professional help. The HSE have free facilities nationwide listed here

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Find_a_Service/Mental_Health_Services/

Klaz wasnt talking about psychiatry. He was talking about counselling. Psychiatry has a medical team behind it, so as to do chemical tests, hormonal tests, and medication support and is tied into a wider system. No not everyone needs this.

But counselling and therapy can be a great help to everyone. There is a limit to what your friends can do and they do not have confidentiality guarantees either, so counselling lifts the shame and inhibition on talking.

wolfpawnat

Suicide is not a selfish act, a person who truly contemplates and attempts suicide is not thinking on the same level as the rest of us, it may be due to mental health issues or recent stress factors such as job loss, divorce proceedings, spouse leaving with children, etc.

Is it hard on those left behind, yes. Oh God yes. They have to pick up the shattered pieces, try and make sense of it, and live with the stigma of "oh their son killed himself" which is very much alive in the rural parts of Ireland!

A person should get to choose if they live and die. I just think a well explained note is important for the family. Perhaps answer a few of the questions!

I know some people here have been effected with this in their families, my deepest sympathies always lie with the whole family in these situations!

But to call someone selfish and a coward is wrong, it is people who say things like that, that cause these people to feel they cannot confide in people and in turn, perhaps even save their lives!

Don't judge others who feel they have no escape.

What I find sickening is the parents who commit suicide but bring their children with them, but that is a different argument for a different thread!

metrovelvet

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Suicide is not a selfish act, a person who truly contemplates and attempts suicide is not thinking on the same level as the rest of us, it may be due to mental health issues or recent stress factors such as job loss, divorce proceedings, spouse leaving with children, etc.

But like mental health problems, it can APPEAR selfish. For example, throwing yourself into the subway tracks at NYC rushhour, really ****s up a lot of lives.

1. The staff have to clean it up
2. People are late for work, doctors who need to treat sick people, people who earn on the hour and have a family to support
3. Parents taking sick kids to the doctor have to stand and wait for at least another hour with sick children.
4. People trying to get to the airport

Just a few examples.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Is it hard on those left behind, yes. Oh God yes. They have to pick up the shattered pieces, try and make sense of it, and live with the stigma of "oh their son killed himself" which is very much alive in the rural parts of Ireland!

A person should get to choose if they live and die. I just think a well explained note is important for the family. Perhaps answer a few of the questions!

How are you ever going to explain it to your parents or your children?

I know some people here have been effected with this in their families, my deepest sympathies always lie with the whole family in these situations!

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But to call someone selfish and a coward is wrong, it is people who say things like that, that cause these people to feel they cannot confide in people and in turn, perhaps even save their lives!

In some cases it is selfish. I have a friend who had a child with a woman who subsequently had a number of children with other men. Due to her father's control, he couldnt see the child they had together and met her when she was 19. Five years later the mother killed herself and while he took in his daughter, he also had to deal with her siblings because she didnt do anything before her suicide to manage what she was leaving behind.

Yes, it can be very selfish.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

What I find sickening is the parents who commit suicide but bring their children with them, but that is a different argument for a different thread!

Thats a whole other kettle of fish. I think thats because they get it into their heads that death is better than abandonment.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

hormonal tests

that explains loads :D

just joking

. No not everyone needs this.

I was agreeing in principle here without going into too much detail.

Someone who is self harming or suicidal should see a doctor/psychiatrist as feck it - there are all kinds of reasons one may feel totally crap. If you feel that way it is only commonsense to get professional help.

No ifs or buts there.

But counselling and therapy can be a great help to everyone. There is a limit to what your friends can do and they do not have confidentiality guarantees either, so counselling lifts the shame and inhibition on talking.

It depends on the nature of the problem - if a person isolates themselves from friends and cant do normal stuff from their own resourses thats bad. But you can't rely on a counsellor for emotional support and love/affection.

Some people have a joy de vivre and do not need counselling.

Those who feel ****e and do not know why and do not take action to improve their lives are missing out.

Maybe I am lucky to have unshockable friends- but I am not against it at all and would be first in the queue if thats what I needed.

metrovelvet

The hormonal thing is real. There was an article recently in one of the health inserts on GPs being too quick to hand out anti depressants instead of doing a full endocrinal work up.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

It's also offensive to assume that people who see a psychiatrist or a counsellor are 'nuts'. Being mentally ill, or just needing a little help with things which are unsettling in your life doesn't necessarily mean that you're crazy.

nowhere did i say that people who see shrinks are nuts , a crazy person would not have enough self awareness to know they needed to see someone

irishh_bob

Sardonicat wrote: »

No, you would rather wait for their mental illness to take such a hold on them that they end their own lives, at which point you insult them by calling them selfish!

Your comprehesion of the reality of being in the grip of depressive episode and mental illness in general ("nuts", it's an "insult" to suggest professiona advice) is ignorant and a key example of why so many people do not seek out help of any kind.

Count yourself lucky that you cannot comprehend the mindset of someone who took their own lives. I don't think you'd ever want to go there.

who says ive never been there ???

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

The hormonal thing is real.

I was just joking as in its not a guy thing

Anyway -you are spot on with your list -there are plenty of physical and medical reasons why people can feel crap -you are saying hormonal here and you mentioned chemical and there is medication available.

So there is not an excuse not to get help.

There was an article recently in one of the health inserts on GPs being too quick to hand out anti depressants instead of doing a full endocrinal work up.

There are medical advances all the time.

You will never see an advert saying " Mary commited suicide but it was a hormonal imbalance that really killed her"

The same is true about drink & drugs " Micky commited suicide but he had been on the lash to take his mind off his problems"

It is cool to have an alcohol or drug dependency but not so cool to go to a GP for pills to help with depression. Funny that.

irishh_bob wrote: »

nowhere did i say that people who see shrinks are nuts , i believe they are weak but not nuts

And Bob , if someone goes for help to improve the quality of their lives they are not weak. It would be nuts not too.

Its like 50% of guys or something over 40 experiencing erectile disfunction cos they wont go to a GP for a medical check up or to get a little pill. I am not saying that Viagra was the biggest discovery in medical science but its up there.

The same thing with any perscription or therapy. Its fairly stupid not to get it if its what you need.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

I was just joking as in its not a guy thing

Anyway -you are spot on with your list -there are plenty of physical and medical reasons why people can feel crap -you are saying hormonal here and you mentioned chemical and there is medication available.

So there is not an excuse not to get help.





There are medical advances all the time.

You will never see an advert saying " Mary commited suicide but it was a hormonal imbalance that really killed her"

The same is true about drink & drugs " Micky commited suicide but he had been on the lash to take his mind off his problems"

It is cool to have an alcohol or drug dependency but not so cool to go to a GP for pills to help with depression. Funny that.



And Bob , if someone goes for help to improve the quality of their lives they are not weak. It would be nuts not too.

Its like 50% of guys or something over 40 experiencing erectile disfunction cos they wont go to a GP for a medical check up or to get a little pill. I am not saying that Viagra was the biggest discovery in medical science but its up there.

The same thing with any perscription or therapy. Its fairly stupid not to get it if its what you need.

Post natal depression can and has caused women to take their lives. PND is also hormonal.

No, you are right people do not know enough about hormonal problems. I'm not saying they are always behind it, but shouldnt rule things out in exacerbating cognitive dissonance.

Unfortunately too many people in this country think the pub is where you solve problems.

Rosiestar

talking from experience I took a massive overdose in 2003 as I knew I just could no longer go on with the hell that was my life and I honestly believed that everyone around me would be better off without me. I spent three weeks in intensive care on life support which was a very hard time for my family obviously but here I am seven years on and nothing has changed. I suffer from Schizoaffective Disorder which is a mix of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and the depression is very disabling and is with me 95% of the time. I have go through at least 15 sessions of ECT treatments every year without fail so tell me how this is a life worth living. I will never try to take my own life again as I know how it would affect my family yet I go on from day to day in a living hell just so that everyone else is happy although they hardly bother with me anyway. And you call me selfish?

irishh_bob

Rosiestar wrote: »

talking from experience I took a massive overdose in 2003 as I knew I just could no longer go on with the hell that was my life and I honestly believed that everyone around me would be better off without me. I spent three weeks in intensive care on life support which was a very hard time for my family obviously but here I am seven years on and nothing has changed. I suffer from Schizoaffective Disorder which is a mix of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and the depression is very disabling and is with me 95% of the time. I have go through at least 15 sessions of ECT treatments every year without fail so tell me how this is a life worth living. I will never try to take my own life again as I know how it would affect my family yet I go on from day to day in a living hell just so that everyone else is happy although they hardly bother with me anyway. And you call me selfish?

your post demolishes the cliche about suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem , for some people , thier is no bright light at the end of the tunnell , i heard henry mckean on newstalk this morning talking to beggars in dublin , they explained to him how thier existance had stripped them of dignity and self esteem and while thier story is indeed very sad , i for one believe those people would have been better off had they committed suicide instead of living such a degrading and humiliating life , instead of simply being remembered as someone who took their own lives , now they will be remembered as down and out beggars

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

your post demolishes the cliche about suicide being a permanent solution to a temporary problem , for some people , thier is no bright light at the end of the tunnell , i heard henry mckean on newstalk this morning talking to beggars in dublin , they explained to him how thier existance had stripped them of dignity and self esteem and while thier story is indeed very sad , i for one believe those people would have been better off had they committed suicide instead of living such a degrading and humiliating life , instead of simply being remembered as someone who took their own lives , now they will be remembered as down and out beggars

Tbph, sometimes I actually wonder if you truly believe this, or if you're just a troll. It really rubs me the wrong way, the fact you talk about some people being 'better off dead'. That is not for you decide, it's just not. When you're dead, it's over, that's it, the end. When you're still alive, no matter how bad things are, they can get better and that's what's worth living for.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

Tbph, sometimes I actually wonder if you truly believe this, or if you're just a troll. It really rubs me the wrong way, the fact you talk about some people being 'better off dead'. That is not for you decide, it's just not. When you're dead, it's over, that's it, the end. When you're still alive, no matter how bad things are, they can get better and that's what's worth living for.

we all die eventually anyway so i ask you , which would you perfer , die young ( possibley by your own hand ) at 20 or spend the next thirty years lieing in a doorway with nothing to keep you warm but a smelly blanket and a bottle of vodka

thier are worse things than death , the important thing is what legacy you leave , living as a bum aint much of a legacy and its something that wont be forgotten about you either

Ickle Magoo

irishh_bob wrote: »

we all die eventually anyway so i ask you , which would you perfer , die young ( possibley by your own hand ) at 20 or spend the next thirty years lieing in a doorway with nothing to keep you warm but a smelly blanket and a bottle of vodka

thier are worse things than death , the important thing is what legacy you leave , living as a bum aint much of a legacy and its something that wont be forgotten about you either

The important point being that you have no idea if the next thirty years will be spent lying in a doorway or the next week a life-changing or life-turning about occurrence will happen. While I agree people should be able to end their lives if they see fit, I'd view the assumption that a perfectly healthy individual wants to end their life because they will always be miserable or something that can actually only be known retrospectively and is based on depressive projection as warranting of medical attention rather than a rational justification for suicide.

metrovelvet

irishh_bob wrote: »

we all die eventually anyway so i ask you , which would you perfer , die young ( possibley by your own hand ) at 20 or spend the next thirty years lieing in a doorway with nothing to keep you warm but a smelly blanket and a bottle of vodka

thier are worse things than death , the important thing is what legacy you leave , living as a bum aint much of a legacy and its something that wont be forgotten about you either

And what kind of legacy does suicide leave? You leave big mess for others to clean up, you leave in image in a child's head of his mother hanging from her bedroom ceiling.

You talk utter ****.

Novella

irishh_bob wrote: »

we all die eventually anyway so i ask you , which would you perfer , die young ( possibley by your own hand ) at 20 or spend the next thirty years lieing in a doorway with nothing to keep you warm but a smelly blanket and a bottle of vodka

thier are worse things than death , the important thing is what legacy you leave , living as a bum aint much of a legacy and its something that wont be forgotten about you either

I'd rather live, because when things are bad, they can get better.

Why are you so obsessed about what you leave behind? Why do you think the most important thing is what people think when you're dead and gone? People thinking good of me after I've died means absolutely nothing to me - I'll be dead, I'm not going to know. I'm not going to live my life (or die) to please anyone else.

Novella

Novella wrote: »

I'd rather live, because when things are bad, they can get better.

Which is very reasonable... but lets face it, when you're in pain or emotional distress etc then you're not really interested in being reasonable. After all, you get reasonable comments from everyone else who has some sort of opinion on how you should live your life, and then they go back to living completely different lives.

I was diagnosed early in life with an extreme form of essential tremor (Shakes). On the face of things, not a particularly harsh disorder. And yet every action was a reminder of how I was different, and most people took notice. My whole body shakes in general, but it really becomes noticeable when I perform some action like putting sugar in tea or lifting anything. In my teens this brought about isolation, and bullying (I was put in hospital on three different occasions simply because I shake.. ). And I learned a way of coping with things, but the extent of my shakes gradually got worse over the years, until the most normal of activities became an extreme chore. And I knew from my consultants that it would get worse. The beta blockers reduced the shakes slightly, but the side effects were horrendous. But apart from diets and the drugs, they had no alternatives to offer.

The point I wish to make is that I heard reasonable comments from everyone about how I should live my life with this disorder. I just wanted it to end, and yet, I knew they wouldn't end. They'd only get worse, and I had no assurance from anyone that life would get any better. And so I seriously contemplated ending it all.

Luckily enough for me, I didn't. But it wasn't in the belief that things would get better. I just didn't want to die a Virgin. Sometimes its the most simplistic of reasons that keeps you going.

metrovelvet

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is very reasonable... but lets face it, when you're in pain or emotional distress etc then you're not really interested in being reasonable. After all, you get reasonable comments from everyone else who has some sort of opinion on how you should live your life, and then they go back to living completely different lives.

I was diagnosed early in life with an extreme form of essential tremor (Shakes). On the face of things, not a particularly harsh disorder. And yet every action was a reminder of how I was different, and most people took notice. My whole body shakes in general, but it really becomes noticeable when I perform some action like putting sugar in tea or lifting anything. In my teens this brought about isolation, and bullying (I was put in hospital on three different occasions simply because I shake.. ). And I learned a way of coping with things, but the extent of my shakes gradually got worse over the years, until the most normal of activities became an extreme chore. And I knew from my consultants that it would get worse. The beta blockers reduced the shakes slightly, but the side effects were horrendous. But apart from diets and the drugs, they had no alternatives to offer.

The point I wish to make is that I heard reasonable comments from everyone about how I should live my life with this disorder. I just wanted it to end, and yet, I knew they wouldn't end. They'd only get worse, and I had no assurance from anyone that life would get any better. And so I seriously contemplated ending it all.

Luckily enough for me, I didn't. But it wasn't in the belief that things would get better. I just didn't want to die a Virgin. Sometimes its the most simplistic of reasons that keeps you going.

Yes indeed. I remember when I was debilitated for 9 weeks with a severe form of IBD that had not yet been diagnosed and I really did think, I cant continue like this. It was the first time I really could feel what it was like to seek euthanasia.

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

I'd rather live, because when things are bad, they can get better.

Why are you so obsessed about what you leave behind? Why do you think the most important thing is what people think when you're dead and gone? People thinking good of me after I've died means absolutely nothing to me - I'll be dead, I'm not going to know. I'm not going to live my life (or die) to please anyone else.

tell that to the people who view suicide as bad due to what the dead persons family will think

irishh_bob

Novella wrote: »

I'd rather live, because when things are bad, they can get better.

Why are you so obsessed about what you leave behind? Why do you think the most important thing is what people think when you're dead and gone? People thinking good of me after I've died means absolutely nothing to me - I'll be dead, I'm not going to know. I'm not going to live my life (or die) to please anyone else.

tell that to those who view suicide as incredibly selfish due to what others around the dead person feel