Suicide is OK

CDfm

I think we will have to disagree on the counselling issue for everyone klaz.

I agree with you on most things but that.

Fuinseog

I know of at least one business man who lost everything when the country went down the tubes and for him suicide was the honourable way out.
for some its the solution to disgrace and dishonour.

CDfm

Fuinseog wrote: »

I know of at least one business man who lost everything when the country went down the tubes and for him suicide was the honourable way out.
for some its the solution to disgrace and dishonour.

That is sad - I heard of another last week.

Bankruptsy lawyers are advising Irish clients to go to England where the less are easier and a person can start over again after 1 years whereas in Ireland it can be 12 years.

I can't see any dishonour or disgrace for anyone in the current climate. The government bailed the banks out. I havent seen any bank directors commit suicide.

CDfm

CDfm wrote: »

I think we will have to disagree on the counselling issue for everyone klaz.

I agree with you on most things but that.

No worries.

coffee_cake

metrovelvet wrote: »

In NY middle classes nearly everyone has a shrink, an accountant, and a lawyer. It's just part of life there. Modernity is stressful and it can drive people to stages where they cant cope, or they need someone to help them grow or manage boundaries in their life.

With your funny self filling taxes I'm not surprised! :eek:

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

That is sad - I heard of another last week.
I havent seen any bank directors commit suicide.

that is because they have no honour or integrity.

CDfm

Fuinseog wrote: »

that is because they have no honour or integrity.

Maybe they don't but , being in business is not always the land of milk and honey so you have to be able to and be prepared to loose.

It is a lot like life - some people fail college courses but that is not enough reason to give up on life.

DS333

I've read some of the earlier posts, not them all.

I've had a death wish since I was 6. Up until I was about 36 it wasn't an option for religious reasons.

Initially what stopped me after that - I've lost count of the number of times I went to do it but desisted - was the thought that I was taking all the misery off my shoulders and lumping it onto those of my mother and siblings; my father was dead by then.

When I was 44 I took an overdose. The suffering was so appalling that I no longer thought about anybody else. I just had to stop the pain the only way I could. But, immediately I'd gone through with it, lying there waiting for death, I knew I couldn't hurt my family that much and scar the rest of their lives. I called an ambulance and survived. It wasn't a call for help. I intended to go through with it.

It's easy to say that it's selfish when you haven't been driven to take your own life. The inbuilt instinct is to hold on to life, no matter what. But, when life becomes that unbearable, are you really responsible for your actions? Terror and panic can have terrible consequences combined with the thought that "they're better off without me."

I'm not convinced that either counselling or psychotherapy are sufficient to prevent suicide. I had been seeing an excellent psychotherapist for 2 years but I still went to kill myself.

In hindsight, I know that I bottled up that pain for decades. But I had no one to unburden myself to and doubt I would have, even if there had been someone.

I'm over it now and glad I didn't go through with it. I've found a way around it and know that it's no longer an option. But how to provide an escape route for other poor souls...?...

Mercy Seat

This has been an extremely interesting thread to read, and I know it's pretty much run its course, but I wanted to respond to one or two posts and throw in a couple of points anyway.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I don't think a mentally healthy person or a person who is thinking rationally chooses to kill themselves. There is always some temporary issue messing with their thoughts.

I agree with you about the first point - that I do not believe that the vast majority of people who choose, attempt or actually kill themselves have some sort of mental health issue. However, I do contest the assumption that it is only a temporary issue.

The problem as I see it is the stigma attached with mental illness and feelings such as stress, etc. As long as people feel they can't openly talk about their emotions there will never be clear and honest discussion about suicide.

I'm not even sure how much of a factor that in itself is. Certainly some people could have avoided their suicide if they had opened up, sought help or talked about their emotions, but I know plenty of people who have good support networks, open friends and have talked with their friends about their suicidal feelings. Friends have been understanding and gone to lengths to be there for the people involved, but they have still ended up attempting suicide, or having to be put in a mental hospital to keep them safe, because there was just no other safe place for them to be.

Gary L wrote: »

imagine the characteristics of a society where, for example, it had always been ok

I can't imagine, or really envision a society where suicide is okay - human life will always be considered sacred, through religious influence or not. Human rights and human beliefs will always value human life. However, I would like to see a society more open and understanding about suicide.

Crazy as this sounds, I think its a life affirming idea. Noone chooses to be born, but what if you have to choose to be alive. For one thing, it would remove the stigma and allow people to discuss the idea prior to the act and allow loved ones the chance to change their minds or at least say goodbye.

I think I agree with all of this.

I'm stating the obvious now but noone can stop you anyway.

They can bloody well try though. I have spent more than a few days stuck in mental health institutions, until they have some sort of proof or assurance that I won't kill myself too soon after being discharged. Next time my depression hits a bad low, same thing again.

I'm begining to wonder if the stigma rises from the general discomfort with the idea of death. Does our inability to accept suicide do any good for people considering it?

In a way, I really don't think it does. Suicide is scary. For everyone involved really. To feel so lost, desperate, out of control and hopeless, to the point the only option is to do very deliberate harm to yourself in the hope of simply not waking up again, is a scary, terrifying feeling. You try to tell someone what's happening in your head, what you're feeling, what you're thinking - because a lot of the time, suicidal people don't really want to die as such, they just don't know how to deal with what they are having to deal with, it becomes the only way to express/deal with/release the feelings. Suicidal person is in a state of fear, panic, desperation. Person they speak to is confronted with suicidal person - the vast majority will react out of fear. Medical professionals, even, their first reaction will be to ask how 'safe' you feel, if you have a plan, etc etc. They're afraid of being faced with potential death and react accordingly. That pretty much only serves to enhance the feelings of fear. If I'm suicidal, and I ask for help, I don't want to see your fear of my state, I don't want to talk about how 'safe' I feel (obviously, extremely not), and I don't want to talk about how I'm going to kill myself. Ask me how it feels. Point out that it seems like a scary place to see. Let me talk, let me try to make sense of these crazy, unwanted feelings. Give me that safe place to try make sense of it all, without being alone and isolated. It's amazing the difference the two approaches make. Slowly, I think more and more people are being trained in the second approach, and more are figuring it out for themselves, but society, in large, has a huge fear of death, and an even bigger one of suicide and this does the absolute opposite of helping people.

We need to focus on the sanctity of all life no matter how lowly that life may be. Normalising suicide is not going to prevent the act nor is it going to help those who feel suicidal. Society should make it explicitly clear that suicide is a terrible act in every way and is not a valid option. Saying that it is O.K. to kill yourself is not ever going to help mentally ill people to foster self-worth.

I don't think that saying it's a deplorable act is going to help people either. As for self-worth, I don't see what that has to do with it. As a person with a mental illness, it is perfectly normal for me to picture my suicide, a dozen different possibilities, during my day. While other people are half-thinking about what they'll do for dinner tonight, or conversations in their heads, or planning their evening - you know, more subconsciously than consciously, the thoughts are just there, unbidden - I'm picturing ways to kill myself, seeing them, living them in my head, over and over and over. It almost feels like an inevitability. I don't like these thoughts. I can ignore them when I'm feeling strong, but I can't keep my energy up forever. I don't see how you can tell me that by making sure society informs me that these thoughts are deplorable, and that the act I can't stop thinking about is terrible in every way, is going to help foster my self-worth. If anything, it will add to the guilt and shame already felt.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

In my opinion the method and circumstances are what determin how selfish an act it is, i think it's always selfish to an extent though.

I had clicked 'quick reply' for this one, but it's been pretty thoroughly discussed since. I do agree that it's quite shocking for her children to have found her, but I'm not about to condemn her any more than that. I don't know her, I wasn't there, and I don't know what she was thinking. I will say, though, that as her ex's friend of a long period, you probably had quite a biased view of her before she killed herself.

professore wrote: »

On the original question, yes, in a rational society I think that if someone wants to commit suicide and is not suffering from depression, excessive stress, or some other mental illness, then they should be allowed to. Note that I think that the percentage of people in this category is close to zero. I think if people were able to talk more openly about suicidal thoughts we would be able to help a lot more of them.

Why can't people with mental illness commit suicide? How are their problems more solveable than mentally healthy people? I agree that if more people could speak more openly - and if society was able to respond effectively to them - suicide rates would drop. Without doubt. But just because there is a mental illness at play, doesn't mean that it's just a temporary feeling, or a solvable one. My own situation is that I will more than likely have depression for the rest of my life. Something like 70% of people with my particular diagnosis report that they have periods of 2-10months where they are 'recovered', before plummeting back into the depths again, which will usually last for a few years. So I'm suicidal, reach rock bottom, but am told that it won't last, it will pass, etc etc. After that crisis point, I go back to just plain old depression. Not actively seeking to kill myself, but finding no joy in anything, seeing constantly my own death, living a very empty life. The people I care about, I routinely push away, believing through the depression that they are better off without my mood swings, my distance, my crying on their shoulders. So I get to feel crap, hurt people I care about, maybe have a couple of months where everything's okay, then go back to either crap, or suicidal. At times, I very strongly believe that I'm better just succumbing to the suicidal phase, break the cycle and let everyone else get on with their lives.

irishh_bob wrote: »

what is brave about seeking help , anyone can whinge , going to a shrink every week and spilling your guts to them about how your life sucks is incredibly undignified

Seeking help is opening a hidden, shameful, traumatic and personal part of you to another person, hoping hoping that they will help - the brave part is doing that, knowing that you could be completely rejected and where will that leave you? Therapists can help you learn to accept or view your issues in a different light, they can help you to learn how to cope with problems that before you felt you could not get out of. They can help build your self esteem, which tends to have a knock on effect to your general mental health. Aaaand after that, I don't think I can/will bother to reply to any more of irishh_bob's posts. Enough others have done so, and I don't imagine that s/he has any intention of reading those replies with an open mind or a willingness to learn.

Deleted User wrote: »

I often wonder why there's such a minimum of emphasis on preventative medicine in this country, instead there has to be problem before anything is done..

Hear hear! I wish there were more people who thought like that in the world. Not just in mental health, even, in all aspects.

CDfm wrote: »

I was just joking as in its not a guy thing

Actually (and I know you were just being tongue-in-cheek), one of the first things most good doctors faced with a seemingly depressed person will check is how their thyroid glands are functioning. The hormones it produces are related largely to energy, and when they are low (I've a feeling actually, it's when thyroxine is too high that you feel low, but anyway, was never good at this part of it) can produce a lot of lethargy, clouded thinking and disturbed eating and sleeping patterns. All of which are common symptoms of depression.

Novella wrote: »

I'd rather live, because when things are bad, they can get better.

As always, some excellent posts in here Novella. I just quoted this because, as I've mentioned about, and someone else mentioned later, there isn't always the guarantee, assurance or even possibility that things will get better.

the_syco wrote: »

I view it as selfish and/or cowardly, but I realize that most do it as they see no other way out. Most don't seek help with their problems, and end their temporary problems with a permanent solution.

Again, I think I clicked this to mention that the problems are not always temporary. As well, many do seek help. Many many people who die from suicide did not die on their first attempt. After the first attempt, they tend to be brought to the attention of psych services. Many have been given 'help', medicated, counselled, but still die. There is no magic cure, no one thing to do for people and no way to actually stop suicide, I strongly believe this much. It will always happen, but I do believe that the rates which it happens can be altered. (Who was that sociologist who was among the first to prove the case for sociology as a science by collating suicide data across the world and proving that the society a person was in hugely influenced the likelihood of suicide?)

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That depends on the circumstance. The letting go part is obvious, but when you are failing people who depend on you, kids in particular, then that's selfish too. Yes, the person committing suicide gets released from their problems, but at the expense of creating new ones for their families, how can that be anything but selfishness? The downside is the suffering inflicted on those left behind. Anybody comitting suicide (barr those who are seriously mentally ill) know that someone is going to suffer for their actions, they must disregard this to proceed, now if there is a more dictionary perfect meaning of selfishness than disregarding the suffering of others to suit yourself, i have never heard it!

And living with someone who is suffering chronic depression, schizophrenia, bipolar etc is the model of selflessness? People so prone to lethargy, overwhelming emotions, emotional distance, locking themselves away from others, violence, inconsistency, overspending, etc etc (NO, this is not true for all people with these illnesses, nor is it true for all times for them, but these are all characteristics and issues that many people with mental illnesses do have to face - I know I'm certainly glad that I do not have my own family, because despite the best intentions, I simply could not be a reliable mother). It is a perfectly logical conclusion, in light of a particularly bad episode of some of the symptoms of mental illness, that you are bad for the people closest to you, that you do nothing but cause them pain, hurt, anguish, and sure they'll be sad for a while, but in the long run, your absence is for the best. I'm not saying that's correct, but it's a relatively common way of thinking and a line of thinking that can not only justify, but actually convince people that suicide is for the best.

Delicate_Dlite wrote: »

And does that mean, if a person has no relations/friends it's ok to commit suicide ?

I'm not sure what to say to that, but it is certainly a line of thought I have been stuck on for quite a while. I think it's a fair part of the reason we lose so many young unmarried males. Females tend to have better social supports and married men have wives to think of. I don't know, at the end of all this, I guess I'm paying more attention because I am barely emerging from the suicidal phase again and just trying to sort exactly this issue out in my head. It's made for interesting reading, that's for sure, and at least a little therapeutic to reply to. I'd be quite interested in reading any rebuttal.

Fairs Fair

Thanks for the honesty of this posting. I relate. I have daily suicide thoughts. I can be in a room and think of it as suitable for hanging myself. It invades my head totally spontaneously. I have prayed for cancer to take the place of someone else. I have a beautiful daughter I love; my wife is just exhausted by me. I am exhausted by me. I am on an empty tank. I am on medication,daily. It does not help. Dosages up and down, I have been under the care of experts - Kevin Malone etc - I have had perfectly intelligent reasonable conversations with him and walked out still thinking of ending it.

Being a father and a husband and trying to give more myself does not work. If I knew a way to die without the stigma I would . I have thought of ingesting coal,soot,carbon. NOTHING makes this go away. It has always been there.

DS333 wrote: »

I've read some of the earlier posts, not them all.

I've had a death wish since I was 6. Up until I was about 36 it wasn't an option for religious reasons.

Initially what stopped me after that - I've lost count of the number of times I went to do it but desisted - was the thought that I was taking all the misery off my shoulders and lumping it onto those of my mother and siblings; my father was dead by then.

When I was 44 I took an overdose. The suffering was so appalling that I no longer thought about anybody else. I just had to stop the pain the only way I could. But, immediately I'd gone through with it, lying there waiting for death, I knew I couldn't hurt my family that much and scar the rest of their lives. I called an ambulance and survived. It wasn't a call for help. I intended to go through with it.

It's easy to say that it's selfish when you haven't been driven to take your own life. The inbuilt instinct is to hold on to life, no matter what. But, when life becomes that unbearable, are you really responsible for your actions? Terror and panic can have terrible consequences combined with the thought that "they're better off without me."

I'm not convinced that either counselling or psychotherapy are sufficient to prevent suicide. I had been seeing an excellent psychotherapist for 2 years but I still went to kill myself.

In hindsight, I know that I bottled up that pain for decades. But I had no one to unburden myself to and doubt I would have, even if there had been someone.

I'm over it now and glad I didn't go through with it. I've found a way around it and know that it's no longer an option. But how to provide an escape route for other poor souls...?...

DS333

Fairs Fair wrote: »

Thanks for the honesty of this posting. I relate. I have daily suicide thoughts. I can be in a room and think of it as suitable for hanging myself. It invades my head totally spontaneously. I have prayed for cancer to take the place of someone else. I have a beautiful daughter I love; my wife is just exhausted by me. I am exhausted by me. I am on an empty tank. I am on medication,daily. It does not help. Dosages up and down, I have been under the care of experts - Kevin Malone etc - I have had perfectly intelligent reasonable conversations with him and walked out still thinking of ending it.

Being a father and a husband and trying to give more myself does not work. If I knew a way to die without the stigma I would . I have thought of ingesting coal,soot,carbon. NOTHING makes this go away. It has always been there.

My heart bleeds for you.

But, after all the experts, surely they have identified the root cause? There has to be a reason you feel this way. You say it has always been there, but something triggered it.

In the past I've envied those with cancer, babies being aborted, people killed in accidents. Why take those who want to live when I want to die, that was my endless question.

I've come out the other side.
What's stopping you?

Novella

Mercy Seat wrote: »

As always, some excellent posts in here Novella. I just quoted this because, as I've mentioned about, and someone else mentioned later, there isn't always the guarantee, assurance or even possibility that things will get better.

No, there isn't always a guarantee that things will get better, but if a person kills themselves, they are taking away all and any chance that things just might. I dunno, maybe I'm naive, but I guess I like to think that there is always a possibility... even if it's tiny.

bmarley

I think suicide can have a knock on effect on friends/members of family of person who has committed the act as they will often blame themselves for not being there or not noticing any problems. That is why counselling in this area is so important but unfortunately much funding is now now being axed when it is needed more than ever. I know of cases where the impact of a member of a family/ or friend of a person who has committed suicide will do the same maybe because of guilt. Anyone reading this topic, who is considering taking their own life, should really stop to think about the impact this has on their family, friends and community at large. There is help out there, pick up a phone or talk to someone. I think alcohol and drugs has a big part in younger people committing suicide, either directly after binge in the days after. Young people are taking lethel cocktails these days and don't know when to stop...a night of vodha and red bull can leave a young person senseless. In the days after these binges can cause severe depression. It is hard times for the younger irish generation but there are opportunities in life for everyone....you'l be long enough dead.

sandmanporto

If you are alive you have the choice to get help if you are mentally unhealthy/unstable!
The other alternative is to kill yourself which really is the worst scenario..
Its difficult to comment on this issue.

grenache

alex73 wrote: »

Suicide is the most lame excuse !,,, Egoistic and selfish. YOUR pain may end... but all those around you start. maybe some people are really mentally ill.... who knows...
Father i knew took his life leaving wife and kids.... Poor women,

SUICIDE IS SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH!!

What a narrow-minded view you have. Saying suicide is a lame excuse shows a total lack of understanding of the thought processes involved. Suicide is the last strand for many people, who may have suffered for years on end. No wonder its so stigmatised with this kind of thinking still heavily pervasive today.

CDfm

grenache wrote: »

What a narrow-minded view you have. Saying suicide is a lame excuse shows a total lack of understanding of the thought processes involved. Suicide is the last strand for many people, who may have suffered for years on end. No wonder its so stigmatised with this kind of thinking still heavily pervasive today.

Suicide having a stigma hardly affects a suicide now does it.

The suicide is already dead.

DS333

Fairs Fair wrote: »

Thanks for the honesty of this posting. I relate. I have daily suicide thoughts. I can be in a room and think of it as suitable for hanging myself. It invades my head totally spontaneously. I have prayed for cancer to take the place of someone else. I have a beautiful daughter I love; my wife is just exhausted by me. I am exhausted by me. I am on an empty tank. I am on medication,daily. It does not help. Dosages up and down, I have been under the care of experts - Kevin Malone etc - I have had perfectly intelligent reasonable conversations with him and walked out still thinking of ending it.

Being a father and a husband and trying to give more myself does not work. If I knew a way to die without the stigma I would . I have thought of ingesting coal,soot,carbon. NOTHING makes this go away. It has always been there.

This may help or it may not. I have to admit it did make me stop and think.

By accident I was present at the funeral of a suicide. I didn't know the person or the family. But, for the first time, I saw the effect it has. The wife had to be literally carried into the church. I have never seen such raw suffering before or since. She was almost out of her mind with grief. And the children were in a stupor. Their Daddy had walked out on them in such a dreadful way.

I just said to myself that, no matter how bad it got, I couldn't do that to another person. I couldn't take all the horrible misery off my shoulders and lump it onto theirs.

I know it won't take your pain away, but it may, just may, keep you here long enough to find your way out of your situation.

I hope you don't mind, but I am going to ask those in the know whether there IS an "expert" out there who may be able to help you more than those you have seen. It may take a few days. Surely it's worth a try...

We're dealing with your life here and, whether you believe it or not at the moment, you are a person who has a part to play on this earth and are just as valuable as the next guy. Personally, I have spent my life believing that I was a piece of ****, utterly worthless. People were astonished when I told them, because they really thought that I had far more talent and ability than they did, and had done so much with my life. I just didn't see it that way. Often we can have such a warped perception of ourselves...

With my hand on my heart, after years of HELL, I can honestly say that I am utterly, utterly glad that I didn't kill myself. You might feel exactly the same some time in the future. If you don't stick around, you'll never know.

Mercy Seat

Novella wrote: »

No, there isn't always a guarantee that things will get better, but if a person kills themselves, they are taking away all and any chance that things just might. I dunno, maybe I'm naive, but I guess I like to think that there is always a possibility... even if it's tiny.

There is always the possibility. I think, for me, the thing that bugs me is that I know things will get better. I know there will be more good times and that every time I come out of the deeper depressions that things do seem good again, and I try to tell myself to remember that feeling... when I'm on an up, I keep remembering that it's a cycle and I'll feel the up again, no matter what.... but when I'm on a down, I keep remembering it's a cycle again, but that no matter what, I'm gonna end up feeling that shit again.

Not naive at all, by the way

bmarley wrote: »

Anyone reading this topic, who is considering taking their own life, should really stop to think about the impact this has on their family, friends and community at large.

The problem there is that not everybody has people like that. There is a lot of study to show that isolation is a big factor in many suicides. Not to mention that depression isn't the type of illness that tends to encourage one to be sociable.

One of the most important things a friend said to me was not to fight the depression/suicidality (?) for other people. Not to do it for him, or anyone else, because it couldn't be guaranteed that they'd always be there, and if they weren't there, then where would I be?

I think alcohol and drugs has a big part in younger people committing suicide, either directly after binge in the days after. Young people are taking lethel cocktails these days and don't know when to stop...a night of vodha and red bull can leave a young person senseless. In the days after these binges can cause severe depression. It is hard times for the younger irish generation but there are opportunities in life for everyone....you'l be long enough dead.

See, the problem with that, is that while I agree to a point... it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Many people I know suffer from depression (I can never figure out if it's just incredibly more common than I realised, or if it's that we can recognise the similarities in each other and consequently hang out), and for many, the only way out of it, is getting wasted on the weekend (or weekday, as the case may be). That night or two of feeling elation, energy, loosened up, speedy, stoned, sociable... just... happy.

Naturally, what goes up, must come down.... and when you spend the week on such a down, it's hard to resist the chance to get wasted and feel good again....

Dudess

alex73 wrote: »

Really!,, The fact its they pass their pain to others!, Some families never recover from a suicide. I have no respect to anyone who takes their lives... However one can't judge their state of mind and therefore the blame may not be on the person.

but if a sane person takes their life because they have debts, or can't cope with work then its simply egoistic.

Well then obviously you have no understanding of the kind of despair they're going through. I haven't either, but I, like everyone, have been through some bad patches. There have been times in my life when, like everyone, I have felt pretty low - not to the point of suicidal thoughts, but if I felt worse, then maybe. And I realise people can and do feel worse - a LOT worse. I also have the mechanisms to cope with the crap which life can sometimes throw you, and I have a great support network. Now imagine someone who doesn't have these things, who feels alone in the world - or they might have family/friends but for some reason cannot talk to them.

It's very simple for me - killing yourself is obviously a hugely scary thing to do, it goes completely against our survival instincts. To say it is drastic is a huge understatement. Nobody wants to do this... therefore, to actually go ahead and do it must mean the pain and stress are absolutely unbearable. The metaphor I'd use is the physical pain one, where patients are in so much agony they'll beg for a morphine overdose (my mother was nursing on a cancer ward, this was regular). They just want relief and peace - it is of course horrific for those left behind, and their anger I would understand... but to dismiss it as simply selfish does not take the bigger picture into account.

Fairs Fair

Please accept that logic has nothing to do with suicidal feelings.

I know that " there has to be help" - I am educated and read the Irish Times daily tales of anguish. But and this is a big BUT - it does NOT stop the emotion, the mind, engaging around such ideas of ending it all.

I live with my suicidal thoughts DAILY - I am on medication/anti depressants daily. I have had psychiatric and psychoanaltical care in Ire and the US. Kevin Malone who is the guy on the radio - I have been under his care. I have called Samaritans. They listen.

Outwardly - I project coping. Books, meditation, religion - all of it have been part of my tool kit. I have a wife who can barely cope with the knowledge that I am so down and there is little she can do and a beautiful daughter age 4 who I adore and play with. And yet - I think about her life without me. Not because I want to hurt her - but her Dad , me, thinking that my love of life with her in the world would negate all the desire to take my own life, still wants to sleep and switch off my head, permanently.

Two attempts - one age 11 and one at 17 - were not successful. So I ranaway....graduated and emigrated - guess what - I was in therapy - electively - in the USA while in a "high flier" job. So much for that.

I want to say to those who encounter suicide - to accept and release those who are now free from the DAILY ANGUISH that comes with this sickening mental ill health.

A daily pill is a daily reminder to me of my anguish. Suicides actually have courage to undertake the act. It can be spontaneous or planned.

Privately I pray that someone sick who has a rich fulfilling life - that I could take their cancer instead. That is not melodrama. That is a real emotion. Because it is stigma less - not heroic to die of cancer. I know if I take my life I will hurt people who love me. But NOTHING makes me love life.

I have done things for others, repeatedly/charity. I have seen sunsets and known there is a higher power. But in my shoes, daily life may include uncontrolled and strong images of drowning, hanging, bleeding, tablet taking, locations to die alone, thinking how hotel staff would handle me dead in a room. I could go on. It happens daily.

You do not know who is suffering and they are close at hand.When I was v bad over the summer this year - I reached out to a friend. They were shocked. They are afraid of me now - afraid of my honesty. It does not fit with what they know or can cope with. That is the truth.

Fairs Fair

I have not been to a suicide funeral - I cannot conemplate the grief you describe. I amnot going to cause pain like that. I want out daily though. Today too. Logic has nothing to do with suicidal feelings.If I could get cancer - no one would know.I wish there was a way to get cancer - to avoid the stigma. I am not being dramatic . It sounds dramatic. But my neighbour was diagnosed in Nov last yr adn dead in Feb.

I know that " there has to be help" - I am educated and read the Irish Times daily tales of anguish. But and this is a big BUT - it does NOT stop the emotion, the mind, engaging around such ideas of ending it all.

I live with my suicidal thoughts DAILY - I am on mediaction/anti depressants daily. I have had psychiatric and psychoanaltical care in Ire and the US. Kevin Malone who is the guy on the radio - I have been under his care. I have called Samaritans. They listen.

Outwardly - I project coping. Books, meditation, religion - all of it have been part of my tool kit. I have a wife who can barely cope with the knowledge that I am so down and there is little she can do and a beautiful daughter who I adore and play with. And yet - I think about her life without me. Not because I want to hurt her - but her Dad , me, thinking that my love of life with her in the world would negate all the desire, still wants to sleep and switch off my head, permanently.

Two attempts - one age 11 and one at 17 - were not successful. So I graduated and emigrated - guess what - I was in therapy in the USA while in a "high flier" job. So much for that.

I want to say to those who encounter suicide - to accept and release those who are free from the DAILY ANGUISH that comes with this sickening mental ill health.A daily pill is a daily reminder to me of my anguish. They actually have courage to undertake the act. It can be spontaaneous or planned.

Privately I pray that someone who has a rich fulfilling life - that I could take their cancer instead. That is not melodrama. That is a real emotion. Because it is stigma less - not heroic to die of cancer. I know if I take my life I will hurt people who love me. But NOTHING makes me love life.I have done things for others, repeatedly/charity. I have seen sunsets and known there is a higher power. But in my shoes, daily life includes uncontrlled and strong images of drowning, hanging, bleeding, tablet taking, locations to die alone, thinking how hotel staff would handle me dead in a room. I could go on.

You do not know who is suffering and they are close at hand.When I was v bad over the summer this year - I reached out to a friend. They were shocked. They are afraid of me now - afraid of my honesty. It does not fit with what they know or can cope with. That is the truth.

beagle001

Hi,
I really feel empathy for you and was moved by the honesty in your post.
I unfortunately have been to a very close friends suicide funeral and it is unreal the damage that it does to people closest to that person.
I nearly lost another friend as a direct result of this person taking there own life.
I really hope you can find peace in this life as suicide is not the answer it creates so much chaos and destruction afterwards.
Your family need you that is a fact,the world is an amazing place and you are a valued part of it.

busymum1

OK I'm going to post this and be brave. I'm going to offer this post to the memory of a boy who felt he was being selfless in his suicide. He commited suicide but he didn't choose the brain injury and resulting mental illness that brought him there.

Thankfully I nor any of my family have ever suffered from a mental illness but I have been involved in the services for those who have, including one boy who killed himself so that his family wouldn't have to worry about him anymore. He wanted them to be able to move on with their lives and felt he was hurting them more by being alive. Nothing anyone could say or do, none of the medications he was tried on changed that mindset.. He could understand and process what was being said to him but couldn't control that part of his mind that was suicidal. He just wasn't able to go on living.

His brain was broken in the same way that a hip can be broken. He had no more control over his suicidal thoughts and impulses than an old lady has over the pain from her broken hip. No one would tell her to pick herself, stop making a fuss and walk it off. So why should we expect anything different from someone with a mental illness.

It can be quite shocking to hear the seemly 'mad' and often very 'trivial' seeming reasons why people try to kill themselves, as they are not coming from a rational mind.

People die from illness all the time..

Some people with mental illness sometimes despite the best efforts of everyone do it through suicide.

It is an illness not a life choice! Nobody wants to be unhappy and kill themselves. In the end of the day everyone else gets up the following day and puts on their trousers and gets on with a life traumatic as it might be. The dead person is dead full stop.. There are much easier ways to get back at someone.

People with chronic depression often manage very well for years coping for everyone else while slowly dying inside ( or abusing alcohol and drugs to try and cope). Finally the day comes when they can't fight anymore. They think everyone is better off without them and won't miss them anyway. Sometimes they begin to believe that their loved ones would like to see them dead and that everyone hates them..It's often seen as a way of releasing the burden on their family rather than a release for themselves. So it's almost done as a selfless act in a way.

In another case a young girl killed herself to avoid putting her family through a court case. She felt it was better for them in the long term and she saw it as the only way to end the 'suffering' she had inflicted on them. The fact that an extended family member had subjected her to sexual abuse from an early age and was now being prosecuted in her mind was 'her fault'. If she was dead then there would be no case and she was 'saving' her family.

Someone who hasn't been there can ever understand that mindset. I know I can't, in the same way I don't know what it's like to have cancer or lose a child.

Mental illness is a physical illness like any other. But is poorly understood and diagnosed and has very limited treatment options available. Some one with epilepsy can't help having seizures if they're not properly treated, some people with undiagnosed chronic depression will kill themselves if not properly diagnosed and treated. Some will even when they have the very best care available.

Some people ( young men in particular) seem to get a kind of 'brain storm' episode usually ass/w other social/addiction/mental health issues and act impulsively and attempt or commit suicide . I think this is a bit like a mental health heart attack.. Again this seems to be very poorly understood and unlike screening for heart disease no attempts are really being made to assess risk factors for this.

How and where they choose to do this can only be understood by the person themselves and to try and second guess that is impossible.

Sorry for the rant but this selfish talk really makes my blood boil!

Work in suicide prevention services if you really want to understand. I don't work in the area any longer, it just wasn't for me.. To all out there who have been affected by suicide you have my deepest sympathies and kindness wishes.
I do realise that this is a very painful area for some on here and I hope I have not offended anyone, I just felt I had to reply.

p.s no sane person ever takes their own life, under the mental health act you are 'insane' if you are considered a suicide risk and can be detained for your own safety.

sam34

busymum1 wrote: »

p.s no sane person ever takes their own life, under the mental health act you are 'insane' if you are considered a suicide risk and can be detained for your own safety.

sorry, just want to take you up on two things here.

firstly, the mental health act 2001 (which is the act currently in use) does not use the terms "sane" or "insane". it talks about menatl illness, disability and dementia rather than the blanket (and unhelpful) terms of sanity and insanity.

secondly, being a suicide risk does not automatically make you "insane" and detainable under the mental health act.

there is something such as a rational suicide, carried out in the absence of any mental illness. some people who are diagnosed with progressive degenerative neurological illnesses do it while they still have the ability to do so, not wanting to live in effectively a vegetative state.

i encountered a man recently who was strongly suicidal in the context of extreme financial pressure. now, he had no mental illness whatsoever, but was entirely rational about things. he was referred by his gp to me ( i am a psychiatrist). i could not admit that man under the mental health act as he had no mental illness.

the first criteria under the act for detaining someone who is a risk to themselves is that they must have an illness/disability or dementia that makes them a risk to themselves. if they are a risk to themselves for some other reason (including alcohol/drug intoxication) then they cannot be detained under the mental health act.

Darlughda

Hi Fairsfair

Its rare to come across a situation as desperate and in need of emergency as yours. What I have experienced of suicidal idealation and/or that desperate need to stop it emotionally now has only happened at the worst of times. However, having experienced that I know how overwhelming and powerful and destructive a force it can be.

As you know, the last thing you want is to destroy your wife and daughter's lives. You know dying by suicide is the most likely way to cause this. Therefore it is seriously urgent you keep yourself alive at all costs.

You have mentioned that you have been to the best of the best of doctors/psychiatrists. Well, you have not.

You have to continue the arduos searching for the GP and the psychiatrist who is right for you. I am sorry to shatter any value belief you have, but these people are rarely the ones esteemed in society, let alone The Irish Times. Continue your search. Relentlessly, over and over again. Remember, this is no longer about you, alone. But your wife and child also.

You do not want them attending your funeral where you die by suicide. Let that be your motivation.

There has to be a right mix of medication that will somehow enable you to live without living with this vortex of a force urging out.

You have to tell each of the medical practioners you see how urgent your situation is. How you are living with suicidal idealation/thoughts daily.

Get emergency numbers for hospitals-that deal with acute suicidal cases.

If the overwhelming urge overtakes you one night, and you long for the peace of death-remember the finality and unimaginable grief and sorrow the cause of your actions can result in and get yourself into a hospital fast.

Your pride is irrelevant, compared to your wife and daughter. Having said that you are entitled to a life without this harrowing emotionality you are living with.

You are obviously a successful man, and have a woman and child who loves you. Many people suicide because they feel they have nothing to live for.
However, few people know what it is like to live with the intensity of the pain you experience.

There is medication and people who help you. They are not the easiest to find, and it may take a lot of trial and error-but you could make this a focus, before any decision to take your life.

Ticktactoe

Darlughda wrote: »

Hi Fairsfair

Its rare to come across a situation as desperate and in need of emergency as yours.

Im afraid Darlughda, its not.

Darlughda wrote: »

You have mentioned that you have been to the best of the best of doctors/psychiatrists. Well, you have not.

Darlughda wrote: »

You have to continue the arduos searching for the GP and the psychiatrist who is right for you. I am sorry to shatter any value belief you have, but these people are rarely the ones esteemed in society, let alone The Irish Times. Continue your search. Relentlessly, over and over again.

Darlughda wrote: »

You have to tell each of the medical practioners you see how urgent your situation is. How you are living with suicidal idealation/thoughts daily.

Our health system is a joke. If you know anybody who is or has gone through this 'situation' you will understand that you can scream, you can search, you can tell doctors/gps, psychiartists how urgent your problem is but at the end of the day the majority of doctors only know what they are qualified in and thats medication. You then become paper work.

Darlughda wrote: »

Get emergency numbers for hospitals-that deal with acute suicidal cases.

And what can they do?

Darlughda wrote: »

If the overwhelming urge overtakes you one night, and you long for the peace of death-remember the finality and unimaginable grief and sorrow the cause of your actions can result in and get yourself into a hospital fast.

If only.

Darlughda wrote: »

There is medication and people who help you. They are not the easiest to find, and it may take a lot of trial and error-but you could make this a focus, before any decision to take your life.

I do agree that medication can help you but its getting the right dose and the right one that suits you. And that takes time.. a lot.. because of our system.

beagle001 wrote: »

Hi,
I really feel empathy for you and was moved by the honesty in your post.

+1

Fairs Fair wrote: »

Please accept that logic has nothing to do with suicidal feelings.

Accepted 100%

Fairs Fair wrote: »

But NOTHING makes me love life.

I love this quote because it is so honest and true.

Fairs Fair wrote: »

But in my shoes, daily life may include uncontrolled and strong images of drowning, hanging, bleeding, tablet taking, locations to die alone, thinking how hotel staff would handle me dead in a room. I could go on. It happens daily.

And unfortunately its the only thing that keeps you going as you get some relief from the idea that this may end for you.

Fairs Fair, fair play to you. Your going through a hard struggle.

irishh_bob

Ticktactoe wrote: »

Im afraid Darlughda, its not.







Our health system is a joke. If you know anybody who is or has gone through this 'situation' you will understand that you can scream, you can search, you can tell doctors/gps, psychiartists how urgent your problem is but at the end of the day the majority of doctors only know what they are qualified in and thats medication. You then become paper work.


thats because doing nothing is POLICY in our mental health service , no matter which way you turn , you are dealing with professional hand ringers who offer platitudes but little else

And what can they do?


If only.




I do agree that medication can help you but its getting the right dose and the right one that suits you. And that takes time.. a lot.. because of our system.



+1


Accepted 100%


I love this quote because it is so honest and true.



And unfortunately its the only thing that keeps you going as you get some relief from the idea that this may end for you.

Fairs Fair, fair play to you. Your going through a hard struggle.

thats because doing nothing is POLICY in our mental health service , no matter which way you turn , you are dealing with professional hand ringers who offer platitudes but little else

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

thats because doing nothing is POLICY in our mental health service , no matter which way you turn , you are dealing with professional hand ringers who offer platitudes but little else

I don't think that is really fair

At some level there is individual responsibility as well.

Sam has pointed out rational suicide and I have know several people since the recession started.

One of these guys was a professional guy who had borrowed too much. IMHO he needed an insolvency expert , private schools for the kids would need to go.

irishh_bob

CDfm wrote: »

I don't think that is really fair

At some level there is individual responsibility as well.

Sam has pointed out rational suicide and I have know several people since the recession started.

One of these guys was a professional guy who had borrowed too much. IMHO he needed an insolvency expert , private schools for the kids would need to go.

il probabley get an infracture for saying this but ive been reading SAM,s opinions on matters mental health for some time and she - he is exactly the kind of liberal im refering to

irishh_bob

irishh_bob wrote: »

thats because doing nothing is POLICY in our mental health service , no matter which way you turn , you are dealing with professional hand ringers who offer platitudes but little else

I think you're being a bit unrealistic here considering the amount of investment available to the health service, and the nature of suicide or depression in this country.

But what would you realistically do different?