Is Emigrating the Only way to Find Work and have a Better life These days?

Amhran Nua

SeaFields wrote: »

Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing those.

I signed that petition this morning but my name isn't on it yet. Do I need to do it again?

Odd, there might be something up with it, try it again sure if it doesn't work send me a PM.

Business and Employment Cooperatives:
Final goal:
Create a network of nationwide enterprise hubs based on the Business Employment Co-operative model which has proven successful in several countries. The idea of this scheme would be to provide an easy transition from inactivity to self employment.

• A primary phase might be entrepreneurship educational schemes outside of the FAS framework, aimed at giving people real skills they can use to start their own businesses. This would include basic business accounting discipline.
• They remain technically unemployed but develop their business idea under the wing of the BEC. Take experienced but unemployed businesspeople and give them equity in startups in exchange for their knowledge and contacts. At this stage the business plan has been dismantled and put back together again by people who have experience.
• If it looks like being a success, they become a "salaried entrepreneur" with the security of a part-time employment contract. In addition, shares in the company can be sold to the public via an online credit card facility, up to say two fifths of the company; if even 1% of the population put €100 a month into those new companies, you'd have a budget of a million euros a week to invest. Open it up to foreign investment in Europe and the US and there is no limit to how high the numbers can run, as well as bringing in capital from other countries. At a certain point the entrepreneur can take out a loan up to three times the amount of investment and money they put in themselves from the BEC hub credit union, although they remain personally responsible for the loan. Office space and advertising funding might also be supplied prior to this point.
• Finally they become a self sufficient business, sharing in the ownership and management of the co-operative, or optionally going it alone.

Legislative and governmental groundwork:

• Create a specific entity beyond a limited company in Irish corporate law, the BEC.
• Change the rules for certain unemployment benefits to fit the BEC model.
• Reduce the complication involved in hiring new people as PAYE employees, which has benefits beyond this concept.
• Create a new classification of debt, enterprise debt, with much more lenient terms than the traditional Irish bankruptcy structure.
• Tax incentives for public investment in the BEC companies, say no taxes at all on profits made from shares in these companies for a period, and make them a tax deductible write off.
• Prior to the company becoming self sufficient, have a reduced tax rate for company income.
• An initial government advertising campaign and funding to provide an incentive for the BECs to be set up, with very limited ongoing involvement. This funding could be taken from the enterprise boards and other services which are no longer required, or whose usefulness is reduced.

More of a plan than the government has come up with in three years. Or ten years, if you want to look at it like that. The basic core of the idea is on the policies on the site, we're still hammering out final details, all input is welcome.

fonecrusher1

Morkarleth wrote: »

Except I didn't ask what people can do, I asked what you do. So, care to answer that?

Im afraid its a classic case of someone saying - Don't do this! because blah blah blah rant....

And then when asked so whats the alternative? - Uh??????.... (things go very quiet):D

FreudianSlippers

I have a question: If things are so shítty, why can I not get a table in a decent restaurant in Dublin without booking a month in advance?

Yag reuoY

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I don't see how anyone could blame young people for leaving. Fresh out of college, no prospects but to compete with half of eastern Europe for minimum wage jobs, and a government that wants you gone, you'd want to be mad not to at least consider it. They certainly aren't rats or cowards.

I mean, weigh that against the ephemeral notion of the future of Ireland, itself a country still struggling to find an image of itself, roots in turmoil and stretching towards who knows what. There are people who will tell you that Irish is barely more than the guttural barks and yelps of animals, Irish music was borrowed from elsewhere, and Irish traditions were made up in the 80s.

It doesn't seem like much.

But I believe it can and will be a lot more than it is, not the comely maidens of DeValera who sowed the seeds for our present misfortune all those years ago, not the banker's playground the current government are trying to make it, not the drunken fool of Europe, Guinnessland or the terrible beauty of Yeats. I'm not entirely clear myself how things will turn out, but I'm willing to stand and fight for a better future than those who dream themselves our masters are willing to let fall from the table, and by god I've put my money where my mouth is.

Still, I wouldn't point the finger at anyone and say shame for leaving. On one side a struggling shadow of a nation, on the other a future. Its a hard choice to make.

I'm sure you have the best intentions for your country;however, Ireland is absolutely ****ed for the next 20 years or so. Your romantic keyboard flourishes cannot change this. The copious amounts of debt this small(in every sense of the word) island owes render your objective futile.

Unfortunately, this is just the economic aspect of the turmoil -- the fundamental problems stem from a far more deep-rooted social disease.

Essentially: Ireland (the Rep. Of) is a failure as a nation in pretty much every way. Unless there is a miraculous awakening from the people I can't see any of the fundamental changes needed occuring.

But keep on dreaming that the potato patch is blossoming when, in reality, a deadly famine is sweeping the land.

Yag reuoY

OisinT wrote: »

I have a question: If things are so shítty, why can I not get a table in a decent restaurant in Dublin without booking a month in advance?

You need to look ahead 4 years from now and realise that 16 bn will be removed from the economy.

I guarantee you won't have any such problems booking a table at your favoured eatery when this happens.















If you still have a job, that is. :pac:

Zambia

What Oisin said earlier does ring very true if you have a decent job in Ireland its not a bad place to live at all. If you have cash its a good place to be on that basis alone it beats life here at present.

Plus I also dispute this hoarde of emmigrants returned during the tiger theory. I have family who thought about it but that was it. A few people returned but I imagine that was for the reason they wanted to see their familys again.
"selfish F**kers" :rolleyes:

I dont miss the Celtic tiger at all, I do miss my friends and family.

Once you have kids and a family you dont want to emigrate. If you do its a hard thing to re-start your life a few thousand miles away.

Amhran Nua

Yag reuoY wrote: »

Your romantic keyboard flourishes cannot change this.

The political party and bulletproof policies might though.

Yag reuoY wrote: »

But keep on dreaming that the potato patch is blossoming when, in reality, a deadly famine is sweeping the land.

I have no advice for those who give up.

Happyman42

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Im afraid its a classic case of someone saying - Don't do this! because blah blah blah rant....

And then when asked so whats the alternative? - Uh??????.... (things go very quiet):D

Apologies, I had to go to a meeting.
Why is it so important that I itemise what I do? Either you understand my premise or you don't. It's not rocket science.

Just as an aside, the meeting I was at was for a business innovation centre committee I sit on. It offers rent free premises to start up businesses. There are already 5 different outfits there (none of them reporting any problems meeting targets so far) and tonight we accepted two new businesses, one of them is 3 lads coming together to set up a car modifying business. They have 4 months booked business ahead of them and one of the committee (voluntary) will mentor them. It's just an example of how people can be proactive and actually achieve something tangible.

Ulysses Gaze

Any young person who's leaving to the UK or Europe should register to vote before they leave.

When a date for an election is called, book time off from work if you have it, fly home and see the family....and just as importantly vote.

That's what I did...

It's the only way to get the current FF Gombeens out of power.

Happyman42

Zambia232 wrote: »

Plus I also dispute this hoarde of emmigrants returned during the tiger theory.

There was research done on it which I will try to find on google. There was a huge number who returned.
Locally, of my leaving cert class all but 2 left the country in the 80's early 90's and almost all are back resident in Ireland, my area was not unique.

Yag reuoY

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The political party and bulletproof policies might though.


I have no advice for those who give up.

You can't do much when the potato is rotten to the core, I'm afraid.

Amhran Nua

Happyman42 wrote: »

It's just an example of how people can be proactive and actually achieve something tangible.

A shade over one percent long term unemployment during the height of the boom, and this is the highly motivated and educated workforce the government is bound and determined to drive from our shores. Is it any wonder Irish emigrants do so well?

Amhran Nua

Yag reuoY wrote: »

You can't do much when the potato is rotten to the core, I'm afraid.

The potato isn't rotten to the core. Its just growing in a sour field.

Happyman42

Yag reuoY wrote: »

I'm sure you have the best intentions for your country;however, Ireland is absolutely ****ed for the next 20 years or so. Your romantic keyboard flourishes cannot change this. The copious amounts of debt this small(in every sense of the word) island owes render your objective futile.

Unfortunately, this is just the economic aspect of the turmoil -- the fundamental problems stem from a far more deep-rooted social disease.

Essentially: Ireland (the Rep. Of) is a failure as a nation in pretty much every way. Unless there is a miraculous awakening from the people I can't see any of the fundamental changes needed occuring.

But keep on dreaming that the potato patch is blossoming when, in reality, a deadly famine is sweeping the land.

To be honest with you, I would think that attitude will be fairly useless in any society, so good luck with that.

Yag reuoY

Happyman42 wrote: »

Apologies, I had to go to a meeting.
Why is it so important that I itemise what I do? Either you understand my premise or you don't. It's not rocket science.

Just as an aside, the meeting I was at was for a business innovation centre committee I sit on. It offers rent free premises to start up businesses. There are already 5 different outfits there (none of them reporting any problems meeting targets so far) and tonight we accepted two new businesses, one of them is 3 lads coming together to set up a car modifying business. They have 4 months booked business ahead of them and one of the committee (voluntary) will mentor them. It's just an example of how people can be proactive and actually achieve something tangible.

You might want to wait a least a year before crowing about this -- especially in that industry.

Happyman42

Yag reuoY wrote: »

You might want to wait a least a year before crowing about this -- especially in that industry.

Very good business plan and a willingness to work hard and diversify if neccesary. The point being, that they are being positive and proactive and don't see anything to be gained from sittting around in piques of rage. I am proud to be able to facilitate them....if they fail, I'll be there to dust them down and start again.

Yag reuoY

Happyman42 wrote: »

Very good business plan and a willingness to work hard and diversify if neccesary. The point being, that they are being positive and proactive and don't see anything to be gained from sittting around in piques of rage. I am proud to be able to facilitate them....if they fail, I'll be there to dust them down and start again.

Fair enough. However, I'd be interested to see how happy you are in 4 years time when another 16 bn has been sliced out of the economy.

Maybe then you'll appreciate just why people are eager to abandon this entropic island.

Zambia

Happyman42 wrote: »

There was research done on it which I will try to find on google. There was a huge number who returned.
Locally, of my leaving cert class all but 2 left the country in the 80's early 90's and almost all are back resident in Ireland, my area was not unique.

The 80's and early 90's when you could not get a job for love nor money. Do you blame them for leaving...

Where did your class mates go where they on permanent visa's anywhere or did they just go of on trips. Plus I assume they where early 20's.

We have several thousands Irish here in Oz on working holiday visas. They may be here for a year or 2 but they are mostly going home at the end of that.

They have not migrated just traveled. Just like we have a few thousand aussies in Ireland on the same Visas.

Happyman42

Yag reuoY wrote: »

Fair enough. However, I'd be interested to see how happy you are in 4 years time when another 16 bn has been sliced out of the economy.

Maybe then you'll appreciate just why people are eager to abandon this entropic island.

It may get bad, but it was bad before. I lived through the 80's and that was bleak, depressing and it looked like there was no future. We are nowhere near that yet and I wonder will it get as bad. Maybe I'm an eternal optimist but I don't think it will. Why? Because I sense a much much more persisent demand for change, fundamental change, fueled primarily by this thing we are on here...the internet.
There is no hiding place anymore, remember that the abuse that Haughey etc etc where engaged with happened during those years. What I am trying to say is that there has been an awakening and we must capitalise on it NOW.

Happyman42

Zambia232 wrote: »

The 80's and early 90's when you could not get a job for love nor money. Do you blame them for leaving...

Where did your class mates go where they on permanent visa's anywhere or did they just go of on trips. Plus I assume they where early 20's.

We have several thousands Irish here in Oz on working holiday visas. They may be here for a year or 2 but they are mostly going home at the end of that.

They have not migrated just traveled. Just like we have a few thousand aussies in Ireland on the same Visas.

I have already said a few times on this thread that I have no problem with that and I think it should be mandatory.
With regard to my classmates I would say that a fair few of them bought houses abroad, thats how settled they were. But the lure of Ireland in better times proved too strong.

Amhran Nua

Happyman42 wrote: »

What I am trying to say is that there has been an awakening and we must capitalise on it NOW.

Have you got any suggestions on how that might be achieved? Those who vote, vote for those who have been filling potholes in the locality since 1996. Those who might vote otherwise are emigrating.

twinQuins

Happyman42 wrote: »

Apologies, I had to go to a meeting.
Why is it so important that I itemise what I do?

Because I'm not interested in vague waffle - if you're going to make claims I want to see them backed up otherwise I may as well just call bull**** on what you're saying.

So, once more, what do you do to benefit your community? No stalling, no deflection just answer the question or we'll know you're completely full of ****.

Happyman42

Morkarleth wrote: »

Because I'm not interested in vague waffle - if you're going to make claims I want to see them backed up otherwise I may as well just call bull**** on what you're saying.

So, once more, what do you do to benefit your community? No stalling, no deflection just answer the question or we'll know you're completely full of ****.

I have no desire to identify myself on here. It's one of the benefits of forums to be able to say what you want without having to be aware of local sensitivities, so I will maintain that if it's ok.

I don't really care if you believe it or not, but let me ask you this. You have to 'suspend your disbelief' to enjoy a film or a book..... so pretend it is true for a minute, can you take anything positive from what I said, can you see it as 'doing something'?

twinQuins

I'll take from your non-answer that you are, indeed, full of ****.

Frankly, this whole thread seems like a very thin pretext to insult those who wish to leave the country so no, I'm not interested in entertaining your bald assertion.
In such a case someone could come on thread, claim to be from the moon and I'd have to accept it.

If you want to piss and moan about people leaving the country then at least have the integrity to do that and not couch it as some patriotic concern. If you're going to criticise others for not having solutions then you damn well better have some of your own.

Sorry, you've dug your own hole here and I'm in no rush to help you out of it.

Happyman42

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Have you got any suggestions on how that might be achieved? Those who vote, vote for those who have been filling potholes in the locality since 1996. Those who might vote otherwise are emigrating.

I think organising locally may be the only solution Amhrain Nua. There is nothing a pothole filler is scared of more than his electors turning on him. A campaign of escalating civil disobedience until certain things are done. Up to and including witholding taxes (not defaulting on them, witholding them) We have to force the governments hand in dealing with this crisis equitably (but I am not expert enough to know what that witholding might cause).

Happyman42

Morkarleth wrote: »

I'll take from your non-answer that you are, indeed, full of ****.

Frankly, this whole thread seems like a very thin pretext to insult those who wish to leave the country so no, I'm not interested in entertaining your bald assertion.
In such a case someone could come on thread, claim to be from the moon and I'd have to accept it.

If you want to piss and moan about people leaving the country then at least have the integrity to do that and not couch it as some patriotic concern. If you're going to criticise others for not having solutions then you damn well better have some of your own.

Sorry, you've dug your own hole here and I'm in no rush to help you out of it.

Whatever, I can't help you with your cynicism.

Amhran Nua

It means the state is unable to gather revenue, thus unable to repay the money it owes, and is therefore unable to borrow to meet its expenses, since nobody will lend to it. A realistic solution to the conundrum is to do your time, put in the media hours, and convince people that the proper solution lies one way, not the other. Of course, that will take the best part of a decade, by which time the damage will be long done and its architects comfortably retired. Damned if I'm not of two minds about it.

Happyman42

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It means the state is unable to gather revenue, thus unable to repay the money it owes, and is therefore unable to borrow to meet its expenses, since nobody will lend to it. A realistic solution to the conundrum is to do your time, put in the media hours, and convince people that the proper solution lies one way, not the other. Of course, that will take the best part of a decade, by which time the damage will be long done and its architects comfortably retired. Damned if I'm not of two minds about it.

I understand that, but the threat of it as part of a rolling campaign of civil disobedience (where you show the willingness and the numbers first) might knock a few heads together at government and European level?
What are they going to do if the 'people' say we are not paying? I haven't heard it teased out anywhere.

csm

Vaguely been looking at this thread and someone may have already made the point I'm about to.

What about those that went abroad in the 80s to do niche jobs that could not have been done in Ireland at that time? They then come back to Ireland when it is more successful and bring all their skills and experience with them. How can they be considered unpatriotic? Sure they have benefited themselves by emigrating but they also benefit the country on their return.

I only mention it because I do such a job and would dearly love that Ireland would be able to provide work for me at the moment but it just can't. It's not due to the recession but the basic premise is the same. I can't get work so I move abroad.

In the future I would love to build up the skills and experience to start a business in my field in Ireland, but I wouldn't be able to do that if I stayed in the country and worked in Burger King for 10 years.

If I do that and employ people here, will I be looked down upon because I didn't pay my share of the deficit while I was abroad? Or will I be looked up to because I am providing employment for others?

Amhran Nua

Happyman42 wrote: »

What are they going to do if the 'people' say we are not paying? I haven't heard it teased out anywhere.

Nothing, they can't be fired until the elections roll around. They'll let the unaffordable public sector do their work for them.