IDF Creating Mind Controlled Pschyopaths? - CONTAINS DISTURBING IMAGES!

TalkieWalkie

Yeah, she's a nasty cow. This is mentioned on the other thread though.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056002444

humanji

Threads merged.

Brown Bomber

I think this is ontopic because the disregard for human life by the soliders.

Full report: http://www.alternet.org/world/148016/...

Leading fundamentalist rabbis gather in Israel to defend the publication of a book, Torat Ha'Melech, that attempted to provide halakhic justification for the killing of non-Jews, including innocent children and families. The gathering exposed not only the ferocious racism of a swath of Israel's pro-settlement rabbinate, but the powerlessness of the government to stop them. Produced by Max Blumenthal, Joseph Dana and Alternet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_LxpCY2G8

Yitzhak Rabin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I think this is ontopic because the disregard for human life by the soliders.

Full report: http://www.alternet.org/world/148016/...

Leading fundamentalist rabbis gather in Israel to defend the publication of a book, Torat Ha'Melech, that attempted to provide halakhic justification for the killing of non-Jews, including innocent children and families. The gathering exposed not only the ferocious racism of a swath of Israel's pro-settlement rabbinate, but the powerlessness of the government to stop them. Produced by Max Blumenthal, Joseph Dana and Alternet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_LxpCY2G8

This is another of a long litany of examples of people who use religion to justify sick and twisted acts.

We would be far better off if people could see these abhorrent fairy tale books for what they are. Utter BS, and stopped using them to further political goals.

nullzero

yekahs wrote: »

This is another of a long litany of examples of people who use religion to justify sick and twisted acts.

We would be far better off if people could see these abhorrent fairy tale books for what they are. Utter BS, and stopped using them to further political goals.

It only takes the most basic levels of critical thinking to see the huge holes in religious tracts.
"God love's you all, but not those who don't believe in him, you must assimilate or kill them".

It's sometimes hard to understand how in this day and age so many people still believe this stuff. Even in the CT field people dig things up and as soon as they get to anything that supposes Jesus was anything less than a real miracle working person they close up straight away.

It's interesting to see what some of the more adventurous CT researchers and psychiatrists have to say about these topics.
We all have to realise that the only salvation available is that which comes from within, we'll be waiting a long time for a mesiah while we continue killing each other for our assorted gods, and thats for sure.

Brown Bomber

When I was Eden Abergil

The occupation did not transform us into law-breaking criminals, it only taught us that it's best to be on the stronger side.

By Aluf Benn

The photographs of the female soldier Eden Abergil on Facebook with the young, bound Palestinians did not "shock" me, as did the automatic responses of people on the left who complained, as usual, about the corrupting occupation and our moral deterioration. Instead, the photos brought back memories from my military service. Once, I was also Eden Abergil: I served in a Military Police unit in Lebanon whose mission was to take prisoners from the Shin Bet's interrogation rooms to the large holding camp of Ansar. I covered many eyes with pieces of cloth, I bound many wrists with plastic cuffs.
Photo posted by a former IDF soldier on Facebook.

I never knew who the prisoners were and what they had done wrong, and I was not trained to know how to treat them. Everything was improvised. They showed me how to cuff them, apply the piece of cloth and load them onto army vehicles. And off we went. Very quickly I learned four words in Arabic that soldiers used when handling the prisoners: aud (sit ), um (stand ), yidak (put your hands out ) and uskut (quiet ).



In the basement for Shin Bet interrogations at Nabatieh, in an old tobacco factory that had been transformed into the regional division headquarters, I saw prisoners eating like dogs, bent over with their hands tied behind their backs. And I smelled their sweat and urine.




I never saw "irregularities." No beatings, no slappings, no maimings. But if the cuffs were put on a bit too tight, half a centimeter that couldn't be reversed, the prisoner suffered great pain. The palms swelled because blood flow was restricted, and the trip became a nightmare when the prisoners begin to beg: "Captain, captain, idi, idi [my hands]."



There were soldiers who tied the cuffs on too tight - a small torture that's not in the reports by Amnesty International or the Goldstone Commission. It's a torture that depends on a single soldier, without instructions from above or the military advocate general. An outlet for the hatred of Arabs during a routine mission.



And there were the humiliations. We did not force the prisoners to sing "Ana bahebak Mishmar Hagvul" ("I love you Border Police" ), as in the territories. The big hit back then was "Yaish Begin, mat Arafat" ("Long live Begin, Arafat is dead" ). In retrospect, it's not certain that our Lebanese prisoners were opposed to Arafat's removal; they may have even identified with that part of the song.



I once performed a leftist act of courage. I was guarding a truck full of prisoners who were waiting in the sun to be processed at Ansar. Suddenly a reservist thug showed up, with sneakers and no shirt on, and wanted to get on the truck and beat the prisoners. I refused to let him on. He made a threatening move. I had no chance against him one on one. I cocked my weapon, he took a step back and, enraged, said: "It's because of people like you that the country is in the state it is."



There was nothing special in my experience or in the photographs of Eden Abergil. Tens of thousands of soldiers who served in the territories and Lebanon, like Eden and me, were exposed to similar experiences. This is the routine of occupation: pieces of cloth, cuffs, sweat in the sun, aud, um, yidak, uskut. That's the way it has been for 43 years. When 18-year-old soldiers with weapons guard civilians with their hands and eyes bound, and see the prisoners lying in pools of urine in the interrogation basements, the situation is violent and humiliating without diverging from orders or regulations.



The occupation did not "corrupt" me or any of my colleagues in the unit. We didn't return home and run wild in the streets and abuse helpless people. Coming-of-age problems preoccupied us a lot more than our prisoners' discomfort. Our political views were also not affected. Anyone who hated Arabs at home hated them when he was defeated and weak in the army, and those who read Uri Avnery before being drafted believed that it was necessary to leave Lebanon and the territories even when they actively took part in the occupation.



But we learned one lesson: Regardless of politics, it's better to be the guard than the prisoner. Even those who dream of a permanent settlement and a Palestinian state and want to see the settlements gone prefer to tie on the cuffs than be cuffed. It's better to guard the prisoner and eat at the mess hall than to eat on your knees with your hands tied behind your back in a smelly room. The occupation did not transform us into law-breaking criminals, it only taught us that it's best to be on the stronger side.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/when-i-was-eden-abergil-1.311390

• Published 02:58 02.09.10
• Latest update 02:58 02.09.10

A response to Pfc. Benn

Those who force people to eat like animals are not on the strong side.

By Gideon Levy

Pfc. Aluf Benn spent his years in the army in the Military Police in Lebanon. Yesterday, with commendable courage, he revealed his military routines in these pages ("When I was Eden Abergil"). He handcuffed and blindfolded people countless times and led many detainees to their cages. He saw detainees eating like dogs, as he put it - crouching with their hands tied behind their backs - and smelled their sweat and urine.



Benn tried to argue that everyone did this, thousands of soldiers of the occupation army for generations, and that is why he was not shocked by the acts of soldier Eden Abergil. That is a twisted but frightingly banal moral explanation: Everyone does it, so it's okay. I never saw aberrations, Benn wrote, immediately after describing the detainees' horrendous doglike meal. The occupation did not corrupt me, he added later, without batting an eyelash.



Well then, my excellent editor and good friend, Aluf Benn, your article is unequivocal proof of how much you have been corrupted after all - and, more seriously, how unaware of it you are. You didn't know and didn't ask who the prisoners were and why they were detained that way. Even their crouching to eat in handcuffs was deemed by you, a soldier who read Uri Avnery in his youth, to be normal, not a monstrous moral aberration. But really, what can you expect from a young brainwashed soldier?



The problem is that even today, with mature hindsight, you still don't consider this an aberration. Why? Just because everybody did it.



The occupation did not turn us into lawless criminals, you write with a pure heart. Really? You handcuffed thousands of people for no reason, without trial, in humiliating conditions, causing them pain that made them scream, according to your testimony. Is this not a loss of humanity?



You didn't return home to riot in the streets and abuse innocent people, you write, and that's all very well. But you were silent. You were a complete accomplice to the crime, and you don't even have a guilty conscience.



Try to think for a moment about the thousands of detainees that you handcuffed, humiliated and tortured. Think about their lives since then, the traumas and scars they carry, the hatred you planted in them. Now think about yourself, the soldier who has matured, become a family man and a respected columnist, a liberal editor to the bone, with independent and enlightened opinions. Could it be that you are blinder today than you were in your youth?



So that's what everybody did. You have made an important contribution to Breaking the Silence, providing proof of what the occupation does to the occupier, who doesn't even notice the ugly hump on his back anymore. The occupier you described is a grave development. An occupier who feels so good, so at peace with his past actions, is in need of profound self-examination.



"When I was Eden Abergil" is an important article. It honestly exposes what most of us don't want to admit. It can't be called false propaganda, and no one would dare accuse its author of being an anti-Semite. He was a dedicated soldier in the defense forces that committed (and still commit) such criminal deeds.



But the lesson Benn took away from his military service is perhaps the most chilling of all: It is better to be the one taking the prisoner, not the prisoner. It is better to be the one placing the handcuffs, not the handcuffed. It is better to guard the detainee and then go to the dining room than to eat crouching, hands cuffed, in a stinking hall. This is the binary world of the former Israeli soldier: either a brutal soldier, or his victim.



And what about the third possibility, which is neither one nor the other? The world has plenty of these - neither torturers not torture victims, neither occupiers nor the occupied. But they have been entirely erased from the narrow and frighteningly distorted image of the world that Israel plants in its soldiers' minds.



Benn and his fellow soldiers just wanted to be on the strong side, and to hell with being on the just side. But those who forced people to eat like animals are not the strong side. Even the mighty, who once read the leftist Haolam Hazeh and now edits the op-ed page of Haaretz, has fallen.



Pfc. Benn certainly did not deserve a medal for his army service. Years later, he doesn't even understand what was wrong with it.



http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-response-to-pfc-benn-1.311650

Brown Bomber

CNN report: IDF sexually abused Palestinian children



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3952077,00.html

uprising2

Souvenir photos
Controversial photos taken by Nahal unit soldiers on their cell phones were released Sunday evening. The four soldiers were pictured while directing their rifles at a bound Palestinian detainee in January this year in the Jenin area, and were accused of abuse and dishonorable behavior.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953086,00.html

EDIT:

Just a side note:
Ahmadinejad to tour Lebanon-Israel border next month.......
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3953026,00.html

Brown Bomber

If people are genuinely interested in understanding this topic this video "A letter to Israel" is a must watch. It is from journalist Lauren Booth, this guys brother-in-law

Archie D Bunker

Brown Bomber wrote: »

CNN report: IDF sexually abused Palestinian children



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3952077,00.html

That reminded me of this: Hamas suicide bombers' videotape: 'We drink Jews' blood'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-suicide-bombers-videotape-we-drink-jews-blood-1.180181

Brown Bomber

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

That reminded me of this: Hamas suicide bombers' videotape: 'We drink Jews' blood'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-suicide-bombers-videotape-we-drink-jews-blood-1.180181

Extremist makes extremist statement shocker! :eek:

And do me a favour - stay on topic please.

Archie D Bunker

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Extremist makes extremist statement shocker! :eek:

And do me a favour - stay on topic please.

I was just trying to make a point in regards to sensational headlines (specifically the one from the article you submitted) - if anyone would have bothered reading the articles, they would have found in both your article and mine that there is actually no real story to support the shocking headlines...

Brown Bomber

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I was just trying to make a point in regards to sensational headlines (specifically the one from the article you submitted) - if anyone would have bothered reading the articles, they would have found in both your article and mine that there is actually no real story to support the shocking headlines...

OK. Fair enough, but that wasn't so clear from your post. I read a lot from the Human Right Org's sites (which is why it is a travesty that George Soros has just donate 100 million dollars to them) and this torture/sexual degradation is an everyday thing for Palestinians. Here is a testimony from B'tselem that has always stayed with me.

Nazih Damiri, shepard, age 24, resident of 'Attil, Tulkarem District.

I have been a shepherd for ten years. The flock belongs to my family, and I graze it in the area between Zeita and 'Attil. We have an animal shed in the area, and I sleep in a small room inside the shed. I take them out at 6:00 A.M. and come back in the afternoon.

On one Thursday, I don't remember the date, I took out the flock. My brother Tahsin and my cousin 'Abd a-Basat, were with me. We walked the flock toward the area west of Zeita, west of the security fence. When we reached the gate in the fence, northwest of Zeita, we saw a Border Police jeep standing on the road west of the fence. Two male border police officers were in the jeep, and they let the flock pass through the gate. They also let my brother pass, and told him to continue walking. One of the border policemen demanded my ID card and started to check it. I had a donkey with me and was holding him by a rope. The officer who was sitting next to the driver asked me if I had ever been in jail. He spoke very good Arabic. I told him that I had never been in jail.

After the policeman checked my ID, he took the rope from my hand and tied it to the front of the jeep. Then he told my cousin to unleash the donkey's saddle. He unleashed it. Then he told him to put the saddle on the ground. Then he told me to wear the saddle. I put it on my shoulders, and my cousin tied it on me, like the policeman told him to do. Then the policeman told me to walk to the greenhouses not far away and to come back. I did that several times. Then he ordered me to sit on the donkey. He bound my hands with the rope that was tied to the donkey. After I sat on the donkey, he told me to ride toward the greenhouses and to come back. He still had my ID card. He had me do it three times. The first time, my hands were tied. Then he untied my hands. The saddle remained tied on my back.

Then he told me to ride to the nearby grove. I asked him about my ID card. He told me that we hadn't finished, and that he would be behind me. He and the other policeman followed me in the jeep. When we reached the grove, he tied the donkey to a tree and told me to **** it. He repeated his demand a couple of times. He also told me to lift up the tail of the donkey and tie it around my head. I told him that the tail was too short, and that I wasn't able to do it. He stood facing me and aimed his weapon at me. The other policeman was in the jeep, watching what was going on.

I stood behind the donkey, took out my penis, and told him "enough." He said, "I'll tell you when it is enough." I was frightened to death, and I couldn't get an erection, so I couldn't do anything. He made me continue, and I pretended that I was doing what he wanted me to do. I tried to look over at them, but the policeman yelled at me and told me not to look, and that if I did, he would shoot me. This went on for about thirty minutes, before he told me to stop. He tightened the saddle on my back and gave me back my ID card. Then he told me, "Ride over to the flock, **** them, and I'll chase you." I rode away, the saddle still on me, and he watched me go. After I got some distance away from them, I untied the saddle and walked over to my brother, who was on the land west of the fence, and told him what happened.

My cousin and lots of other people saw what happened to me. I have not gone to the western side of the fence since then. I am afraid that I'll come across border policemen again.

Nazih Salah 'Awad Damiri, age 24, is a shepherd and a resident of 'Attil. The testimony was given to 'Ataf Abu a-Rob in Zeita on 6 August 2003.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20030626_Sexual_harassment_of_Naziya_Damiri_in_Zeita_Witness_Damiri.asp

And a witness account: http://www.btselem.org/English/Testimonies/20030626_Sexual_harassment_of_Naziya_Damiri_in_Zeita_Witness_a.asp

Archie D Bunker

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK. Fair enough, but that wasn't so clear from your post. I read a lot from the Human Right Org's sites (which is why it is a travesty that George Soros has just donate 100 million dollars to them) and this torture/sexual degradation is an everyday thing for Palestinians. Here is a testimony from B'tselem that has always stayed with me.

I hardly think that these type of events are an everyday thing.
In fact, after doing some research I found that these are extremely rare (the one case you mention is from 2003) and I couldn't find too many documented cases even on the B'tselem web site (not to mention claims that have been proven in a court of law or by documented evidence).

I seriously doubt if vilifying the Israelis/Palestinians will contribute to this conflict's resolution in any positive way.

Brown Bomber

Here is the CNN report.

Look into the fear in that childs eyes...

God knows what he's been through. Think back to when you were a kid, or imagine that is your child. Terribly sad and infuriating to me.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I hardly think that these type of events are an everyday thing.

Okay Archie but just because you are not aware of something doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it does - committed by IDF sociopaths.

In the example above (and all the others) wouldn't you say the criminals involved are displaying pschyopathic tendencies? Can we at least agree that someone who forces another at gunpoint to have sex with a horse needs medical help?

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

In fact, after doing some research I found that these are extremely rare (the one case you mention is from 2003) and I couldn't find too many documented cases even on the B'tselem web site

I'm afraid to say it is commonplace, as is, if you read the thread in full the dehumanisation of non-Jews in occupied Palestine. That is the view of human rights group Breaking The Silence, ex-IDF, which is exactly why they released those shocking photos of the Israel's taking token photos, to counteract the Israeli lies "commonplace" lies.

In May 2010, it asked the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture to investigate 14 cases of sexual assault or threatened assault it uncovered - committed by Israeli soldiers, interrogators, and police from January 2009 - April 2010. The abused children were from 13 - 16 years old, detained for offenses like stone-throwing harming no one.
DCI-Palestine expressed alarm about sworn affidavits children provided, explaining instances of sexual assault or threatened assault to obtain confessions. In 2009 alone, DCI reviewed 100 sworn affidavits attesting to the following:
-- 97% of children said their hands were tied during interrogations;
-- 92% said they were blindfolded or hooded;
-- 81% said forced confessions were made;
-- 69% said they were beaten or kicked;
-- 65% said they were arrested from midnight to 4AM;
-- 50% said they were verbally abused;
-- 49% cited threats or inducements;
-- 32% were forced to sign confessions in Hebrew they didn't understand;
-- 26% cited painful position abuse;
-- 14% were in solitary confinement;
-- 12% were threatened with sexual assault; and
-- 4%, in fact, were sexually assaulted.

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=16263

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

(not to mention claims that have been proven in a court of law or by documented evidence).

To be fair the IDF court is not worth mentioning. It released IDF child killers without charge. What percentage of sex crimes against children would guess are reported, much less prosecuted in a land occupied? Much, much lower than the figure in Ireland for example which I would imagine is already a tiny percentage.

Archie D Bunker wrote: »

I seriously doubt if vilifying the Israelis/Palestinians will contribute to this conflict's resolution in any positive way.

Whio's vilifying?

Honestly, don't you think sexually assault of a child by a solider is legitimate criticism? Or forcing a man at gunpoint to mollest an animal is legitamate criticism? Or posing over your fresh kill of a human for a trophy photo is legitimate?

Its not even about criticising. The point of the thread was to help me understand better if this pattern of IDF sociopathy was as a a result of a brutal occupation or if it is a programme of intentional IDF conditioning.

Yitzhak Rabin

Brownbomber, can you clarify what the conspiracy is? This thread has just become a dumping ground for videos and articles pointing out atrocities of the IDF. That is not a conspiracy and there are any number of threads where this is being discussed on the politics or humanities forum.

Brown Bomber

yekahs wrote: »

Brownbomber, can you clarify what the conspiracy is? This thread has just become a dumping ground for videos and articles pointing out atrocities of the IDF. That is not a conspiracy and there are any number of threads where this is being discussed on the politics or humanities forum.

Gladly.

It is discussing the hypothesis that the IDF are intentionally training their soliders to be pschyopathic murderers devoid of normal human compassion and emotions.

What is a "dumping ground" for you is all corrobariting evidence to me that the IDF behave in pschyopathic actions much higher that the "magical" 5% figure.

Which I would find it particuraly ironic if it was one of the "cant support your theories" brigade who reported the thread.

EDIT: I could be wrong but I highly doubt that there are any other "IDF are training pschyopathic killers" threads anywhere else on boards and if I did start one elsewhere it'd be slapped to CT quicker than you can say ethnic cleansing.

IrelandSpirit

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is the CNN report.

Its not even about criticising. The point of the thread was to help me understand better if this pattern of IDF sociopathy was as a a result of a brutal occupation or if it is a programme of intentional IDF conditioning.

I think you're right, facts are facts and it's not about criticising. This thread is extremely informative.

Personally, I'm beginning to lean towards a programme of intentional IDF conditioning, rather than solely a result of a brutal occupation. That's not to say the latter does not play a part, or that some in regular units would not have a propensity towards psychopathy but as I mentioned before, I have met Israeli's who'd recently finished their tours and they were extremely traumatised by their experience, both emotionally and physically

Also, I have met a soldier from the British army who witnessed similar atrocities, specifically as regards trophy taking - and it was not from soldiers in any regular unit. The soldiers who returned from his regiment all bar none succumbed to PTSD, and were equally emotionally distressed by their experiences.

The soldiers in some of the cases posted here appear to be immune/desensitised to what should be considered normal human responses to their atrocious acts, whether ordered to commit them, or perpetrated through their own 'volition.'

Yitzhak Rabin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It is discussing the hypothesis that the IDF are intentionally training their soliders to be pschyopathic murderers devoid of normal human compassion and emotions.

Fair enough. Keep this at the forefront of further posts.

Nehaxak

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It is discussing the hypothesis that the IDF are intentionally training their soliders to be pschyopathic murderers devoid of normal human compassion and emotions.

Not that I'm defending anyone or taking sides in this at all but I would like to point out that no matter how compassionate you might think yourself to be, if you're exposed to killings, atrocities, natural or man made disasters and their consequences, disregard to human life by other humans, war and all that brings with it on a daily basis etc., etc., etc., - it will, no matter how much you try to stop it, change you as a human being.
Not to be a less compassionate person but to almost disregard a lot of things that would otherwise make another human being shudder at even the thought of it, never mind experiencing it first-hand.
Some of those soldiers in the pictures may just be celebrating their first kill of (what is to them anyway...) an enemy combatant - which normally to everyone else is a terrible thing to do but to them it's just a part of their life and what they're doing.
I wouldn't say they're mind controlled in any way, they've just become more accustomed to death and both seeing, participating in and killing who they see as their enemy.
The reason they might not suffer any side effects as experienced by the US army is because the war they are fighting and the people they are fighting, are all around them and it's been going on for years on end.
Whereas the US soldiers et all have been fighting wars with people from countries far away from their own and when it's all over, they (the US soldiers) go home to a "normal" life in their own country.

The other thing is that, if I'm correct in this and if it's still the case (someone please correct me or clarify if I'm wrong), you must serve in the IDF if you're a certain age for a minimum number of years and thusly, whether you like it or not, even if you've lived in part of Israel that's not been full on exposed to it all, you will sooner or later experience it all anyway and so you would become accustomed (not brainwashed!) at an early age to it all.

Also, for the few you might see in photographs taken beside their kills or just generally taking pictures beside dead bodies or enemy prisoners (men, women and unfortunately children alike) I'm sure there's plenty more in the IDF who wouldn't be bothered wasting their time doing such a thing.

Is it worth pointing out too that the fact some Palestinians strap bombs to themselves in the ultimate sacrifice of suicide bombing, which has generally been of innocent civilians, is nothing but and can never be anything but, the product of brainwashing that they have even considered it as a viable option in the first place to take their own life and that of multiple others with no regard as and to whom exactly it is that they end up killing ?

The war between Israel and Palestine is not one sided and atrocities and stupidity are not carried out only by one side - of which you can say that of any war really, apart from when the UK invaded Zanzibar and the war lasted ten minutes but that's just being picky...

Di0genes

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Gladly.

It is discussing the hypothesis that the IDF are intentionally training their soliders to be pschyopathic murderers devoid of normal human compassion and emotions.

What is a "dumping ground" for you is all corrobariting evidence to me that the IDF behave in pschyopathic actions much higher that the "magical" 5% figure.

Seeing as military service is nearly mandatory with pretty much the entire population of Israeli serving in their military.

Your logic would mean the IDF is creating a country of psychopaths,

May I ask is violent crime vastly higher in Israeli? Is there a massive spike in serial killers in the country?


<SNIP>

The Recliner

Di0genes wrote: »

This thread is a thinly veiled excuse for you to engage in your favourite pastime.

No need for that, we have already asked BB to keep to the topic of the thread

Brown Bomber

Creidt where credit is due this is some good moderation. Fair play.

1. Thread reported
2. clarification requested
3. clarification given
4. clarification accepted
5. Some "you hate jews" comment from diogenes
6. Comment edited and insult removed - Diogenes warned.
7. No need for me to respond to diogenes insults now.

Keep up the good work.

Brown Bomber

Di0genes wrote: »

Seeing as military service is nearly mandatory with pretty much the entire population of Israeli serving in their military.

Your logic would mean the IDF is creating a country of psychopaths,

May I ask is violent crime vastly higher in Israeli? Is there a massive spike in serial killers in the country?


<SNIP>

I'd like to see a massive spike in the IDF soliders who glorify killing innocent civilians tbh.

You haven't thought your questions through. For a start your facts are wrong. "Nearly mandatory" and "pretty much" in the same sentence don't make for a convincing statement. In any case only 75% of Israelis are Jewish, and of them how many made aaliyah after they were over the age of military service or cannot serve in the military due to medical conditions?

I cannot stress enough to you or anyone else the claims I make are not claims against religion. If a religion, any religion has been corrupted for nefarious purposes by ultra-nationalists it is not the fault of the religion itself but it's corrupters.

As for the serial killer comment, many of the IDF soliders are serial killers. Working for the IDF who purposely target civilians has to be a wet dream for a serial killer. They can kill with inpunity.

This is what a IDF field commander Lieutenant Colonel Yossi Drori had to say this week in the civil suit filed by the Parents of Rachel Corrie

"There are no civilians during wartime," Yossi declared under oath

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/there-are-no-civilians-du_b_710346.html

Brown Bomber

This filmmaker was originally commissoned by the IDF during the first Palestinian Intifada to boost morale. The film is about four IDF soliders who served in the occupied territiories. The film was ultimately censored heavily so the filmmaker went back to interview them 14 years later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSlQ98r5QXo

Brown Bomber

Parallel Lives [Hebrew title: Hamedovavit]
By Dalia Karpal
Translated by Victoria Lichtman
Source: http://karmalised.com/?p=2492

From a young age Nufar Yishai-Karin was interested in war crimes. During the days of the first intifadah, she had a chance to experience such issues – up close and personal – during her service in the army infantry company near Rafah. After her service she studied psychology and then turned to her acquaintances in the company in order to understand what leads them to violent behavior. They recounted the pleasure they derived from the abuse, yet Yishai-Karin still believes that they, the soldiers, are also the victims.

(...)

After her army service, she began her studies at Hebrew University where she dedicated seven years to researching the processes that lead Israeli soldiers to commit injustices and abuses during the years of the first intifadah Her research work, which was her thesis for her Master of Clinical Psychology degree focused on the soldiers’ testimonies about violent acts which they participated in. Her thesis which was revised as an article was published this month in the journal “Alpayiim” (2000), as a joint work with her thesis advisor at the university, Professor Yoel Elizur.

The article, entitled: “How does a situation arise” disguises the soldier’s names, the dates and locations, to protect the interviewees’, who were chosen from a sample from two infantry companies (Ashbal and Ash’har) and were stationed for an extended period of time in Rafah. The article provoked a response from the author David Grossman, who commented that this suggests that this is not a case of an isolated few, but of hundreds and thousands of others, “who carried out a large-scale inventory of evil”.

(...)

In October ’91, Yishai-Karin went to study psychology at Hebrew University. “Already during my army service I knew this would be my research, and I was especially interested in discovering why there are always a few people in a group who strive to do good, what is it in their personality characteristics that makes them this way and what happens in such a situation.”

One of her teachers, Prof. Yoel Elizur, was a reservist in the army’s mental health unit. According to Elizur, the unit had a good research branch in the 1990s but could not get authorization to conduct a study on soldiers’ violence. “The prevailing tendency then was to silence the whole thing and say that the soldiers were generally all right,” he says.

The study included interviews with 18 soldiers and three officers who served with her in two armored infantry units. She knew most of them from her military service. She interviewed each of them personally in his home for a few hours and recorded the interviews; she still has the tapes. Her prior acquaintance with the soldiers led them to trust her implicitly, and they opened up fully, readily telling her about crimes they themselves had committed: murder and killing, breaking the bones of children, inflicting humiliation, destroying property, stealing.

Brown Bomber

Testimony:

“I went out on my first patrol … Others on the patrol were just shooting like crazies … I also started shooting like all the others … It was … look, I won’t tell you that it wasn’t cool, because suddenly for the first time you come and hold the weapon seriously, you’re not training in some drill or in some dugout in the dunes, or I don’t know what, or you have some commander who is looking over your shoulder in the firing range. Suddenly you are responsible for what you are doing. You take the gun. You shoot. You do what you want.”

One of the study’s most shocking findings is that the soldiers enjoyed the intoxication of power no less than the kick they got from the violence. Yishai-Karin observes in the thesis.

They enjoyed the violence because it broke the routine and they liked the destruction and the chaos. They also enjoyed the feeling of power in the violence and the sense of danger

Testimony:

“The truth? When there is commotion and like that, I like it. That’s when I enjoy it. It’s like a drug. If I don’t go into Rafah and if there isn’t some kind of disturbance once in some week, I go nuts.”

Another soldier:

“The most important thing is that it removes the burden of the law from you. You feel that you are the law. You are the law. You are the one who decides … As though from the moment you leave the place that is called Eretz Yisrael [the Land of Israel] and go through the Erez checkpoint into the Gaza Strip, you are the law. You are God.”

The callousness of some of the soldiers produced extreme indifference to the Arabs’ suffering:

“We were in a weapon carrier when this guy, around 25, passed by in the street, and just like that, for no reason, he didn’t throw a stone, did nothing – bang, a bullet in the stomach – he shot him in the stomach and the guy is dying on the sidewalk and we keep going, uninterested. No one gave him a second look.”

There were some tough soldiers who developed an ideology holding that even minor events necessitated a brutal response.

“A 3-year-old kid, he can’t throw, he can’t hurt you no matter what he does, but a kid of 19 can. With women I have no problem. With women, one threw a clog at me and I kicked her here [pointing to the crotch], I broke everything there. She can’t have children. Next time she won’t throw clogs at me. When one of them [a woman] spat at me I gave her the rifle butt in the face. She doesn’t have what to spit with anymore.”

Some of the soldiers were singled out in the study as “prone to being led” – that is, they were swept up in the wake of their officers and buddies – and there were some who had never lifted a hand against anyone before their army service.

one soldier testified:

“The moment the red line is broken, it is not just broken, it is smashed to smithereens, and from that moment everything is permitted,”

Most of the soldiers who were interviewed vividly recollect their first encounter with brutality. In one case, while still in basic training, they served as escorts for a group of suspects.

“They took the Arabs, the commanding officers did, and put them on the bus between the back door and the last seat, put them only between the seats. On their knees. Then they told us: Within two minutes – and this is still just basic training – within two minutes everyone is on the bus. No one steps on the seats … And everyone started to trample them [the Arabs] and step on them on the run … It was a really bad winter. Minus 4 degrees [Centigrade] and rain and hail … They each went out in the middle of the night … They weren’t given time to dress. Some of them had clogs, short-sleeved shirts … Everyone opened the windows deliberately. People poured water on them from the canteens, so they would freeze from the cold. And the whole way they were bombarded with blows … and I mean the whole way.”

Another soldier describes one of the first times he entered a house to arrest an Arab

“an absolute giant, around 30, maybe. Rampaging. We shout at him to lie down, we hit him, but he doesn’t lie down, he wants to escape … These four guys show up and throw stones at him from all sides, and we are beating up on him … Lie down! Lie Down! Lie down! Until in the end he lies down … We get to company headquarters and it turns out he lost consciousness … and a few days later he is dead.”

Some junior commanders encouraged the brutality and even endorsed it.

After two months in Rafah a [new] commanding officer arrived … So we do a first patrol with him. It’s 6 A.M., Rafah is under curfew, there isn’t so much as a dog in the streets. Only a little boy of four playing in the sand. He is building a castle in his yard. He [the officer] suddenly starts running and we all run with him. He was from the combat engineers. We all run with him. He grabbed the boy. Nufar, I am a degenerate if I am not telling you the truth. He broke his hand here at the wrist. Broke his hand at the wrist, broke his leg here. And started to stomp on his stomach, three times, and left. We are all there, jaws dropping, looking at him in shock … The next day I go out with him on another patrol, and the soldiers are already starting to do the same thing.”

A soldier of conscience summoned another squad commander who was a paramedic. He told Yishai-Karin that by the time help arrived the three Palestinian boys were already...

“completely covered with blood, their clothes were saturated with blood and they were shaking with fear. Their hands were tied and they were afraid to move, they were on their knees.”

Pixel8

digme wrote: »

They're brain washed from a young age.

Aren't we all

WakeUp

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This filmmaker was originally commissoned by the IDF during the first Palestinian Intifada to boost morale. The film is about four IDF soliders who served in the occupied territiories. The film was ultimately censored heavily so the filmmaker went back to interview them 14 years later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSlQ98r5QXo

That's a good video BB good as in eye-opening. Those dude's have issue's big time, some of the things they described doing where just awful. Chasing down stone throwers, catching them then the enitire company beating them to death with their hands and they told the story with a smile on their face. Disgusting. Man those IDF soldiers are lil pussie's behind it all, but give them a gun and a licence to do what the fck they want and they turn into monster's. It would appear from the video that is exactly what the IDF chain of command wan't them to be. "Hard" men alright.

Brown Bomber

More IDF soliders proving my point dehumanising a terrified woman, a "terrorist" according to whoever posted the video. He also describes it as "funny". Pschyopaths!