RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Many other are reporting similar over on the terrestrial forum, this post today for example. Some even suggest a wire coat hangar would work

The DTT signal is much more robust, this is the reason 51 DTT transmitters will achieve the same approx 98% population coverage as 170 analogue transmitters.

I am a strong supporter of the coathanger aerial if you are in a strong signal area. I have tested the theory with many examples and am surprised at how good the results are. By the way, you have to bend it properly to get results, but you can't beat it for cost. (Assuming you do not have to send something to the cleaners to get one!:D)

The Bull

The Cush wrote: »

We are going way off topic with this and it belongs over in the terrestrial forum. Maybe mods could move these 5 post over.

@The Bull
Contary to what Stinicker says I would stick with this aerial. If you are getting reasonable reception of the Irish analogue channels with the aerial you will have absolutely no problem receiving DTT with that aerial provided, as I said earlier, if it's pointing to one of the 51 DTT transmitters.

My situation: UHF aerial pointing to Mullaghanish (50+ miles away) receiving analogue and DTT (Group A red tip aerial). Woodcock Hill approx 15 miles away no analogue signal due to topography. I'm picking up solid DTT (Group B yellow tip) from Woodcock Hill side-on the Mullaghanish (Group A red tip) aerial.

Many other are reporting similar over on the terrestrial forum, this post today for example. Some even suggest a wire coat hangar would work

The DTT signal is much more robust, this is the reason 51 DTT transmitters will achieve the same approx 98% population coverage as 170 analogue transmitters.

What is the upper grid aerial used for? What is your location and transmitter, do you get TV3 thru the aerial?

After trailin through a few of the other posts on this topic i checked my tv in the siting room which has a mpeg 2 digital tuner built into it. Tuned in the channel 22 and hey presto i am receving the service sound but no picture. of course i know i will need a mpeg 4 reciver but with regard to the aerial i checked the test reception section and it tells me i have an excellent signal. Thanks for the info guys.

watty

Interesting debate on Saorsat here:

http://www.techtir.ie/blog/loguey/is-saorsat-innovation-or-blocking#comment-1004227

Is the negativity simply because
1) People in England won't be able to get Saorsat, not even sneakily like they do via Irish or N.I. Sky sub?
2) Real Digital TV needs RTE deal more than RTE needs them?

Is it viable to have new a competitor to Freesat and Sky on 28.2E at all, that needs a setbox from single source (Fortec)?

How does Saorsat (fill in for missing Saorview coverage) affect Sky, UPC, Real Digital or any pay platform at all when RTE said they won't be changing anything relating to Sky?

STB

watty wrote: »

Is it viable to have new a competitor to Freesat and Sky on 28.2E at all, that needs a setbox from single source (Fortec)?

No. And re encryption most new boxes and TVs will have CI+ as standard for add on pay content.

Sam Russell

Would it be possible for Real Digital to piggyback on Saorsat? Could they encrypt content onto the Saorsat transponder?

Tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would it be possible for Real Digital to piggyback on Saorsat? Could they encrypt content onto the Saorsat transponder?

In theory yes

Sam Russell

In that case, could they not compete very well with $ky and UPC by providing a specific payTV service, tailored to Irish requirements?

Better still for them if they did this, would it not give them the inside track with PayTV on the comm muxes of DTT?

Tony

Sam Russell wrote: »

In that case, could they not compete very well with $ky and UPC by providing a specific payTV service, tailored to Irish requirements?

Better still for them if they did this, would it not give them the inside track with PayTV on the comm muxes of DTT?

Yes they could if sky are forced to sell wholesale at a pre determined price, I believe this is going through a legal process in the Uk at present

watty

STB wrote: »

No. And re encryption most new boxes and TVs will have CI+ as standard for add on pay content.

"TheFuture" claims RealDigital will not offer separate CAM "for security reason" but only box (Fortec?) with embedded card reader (which I call an embedded CAM or SoftCAM depending on how it's done).

Rick_

In theory...

Could RTÉ not pay off Sky to release them from their contract but remain on 2D, switch to FTA but change the parameters of the frequency to something that Sky boxes can't tune in manually and then release their own STB's for Saorsat? (Say from 22000 to 24500 or something that Sky boxes won't let you input). That way they don't have to wait for a new satellite to be launched for them to use, plus it also means they can be FTA on 2D because the beam is tight over UK/Ireland but with different parameters than UK STB's so the signals can't be tuned in by Sky box owners in the UK?

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

In that case, could they not compete very well with $ky and UPC by providing a specific payTV service, tailored to Irish requirements?

Better still for them if they did this, would it not give them the inside track with PayTV on the comm muxes of DTT?

Their original plan was for UK, but they have not found interest among dealers (other than Maplin) except here.

Their plan is Sky Churn or FTA upgraders (i.e. Dish on 28.E already there).
Real Digital?
Fortec, Rapture and Information TV are the three partners.

PayDTT? If they interested they could have bid when it was tendered. I don't believe they have that sort of money.

To cut cost of bandwidth I heard they envisage DVB-S2 MPEG4 SD transmission, leasing entire Transponder(s) at 28.5 Eurobird (needs 80cm dish in North & South Wests).

Almost certainly a Fortec box only. They would have their own proprietary EPG service and embedded "CAM"(Conax?), so even if you SoftCAM / Dragon cam with legit viewing card an inferior service compared to Sky, Freesat or dedicated Fortec box.

What could they offer for here that UPC or Sky couldn't under cut in price with a better package the next day?

Tony

The transponder costs are prohibitive

Paddy C wrote: »

In theory...

Could RTÉ not pay off Sky to release them from their contract but remain on 2D, switch to FTA but change the parameters of the frequency to something that Sky boxes can't tune in manually and then release their own STB's for Saorsat? (Say from 22000 to 24500 or something that Sky boxes won't let you input). That way they don't have to wait for a new satellite to be launched for them to use, plus it also means they can be FTA on 2D because the beam is tight over UK/Ireland but with different parameters than UK STB's so the signals can't be tuned in by Sky box owners in the UK?

watty

Paddy C wrote: »

In theory...

Could RTÉ not pay off Sky to release them from their contract but remain on 2D, switch to FTA but change the parameters of the frequency to something that Sky boxes can't tune in manually and then release their own STB's for Saorsat? (Say from 22000 to 24500 or something that Sky boxes won't let you input). That way they don't have to wait for a new satellite to be launched for them to use, plus it also means they can be FTA on 2D because the beam is tight over UK/Ireland but with different parameters than UK STB's so the signals can't be tuned in by Sky box owners in the UK?

There is a lot more Saorview content than what is on Sky.
It would have to be encrypted.
It would cost RTE x3 to x 10 more than Soarsat
It would need legislation.
All answered here http://www.techtir.ie/blog/loguey/is-saorsat-innovation-or-blocking#comments

Why should RTE choose a system
* costing more than €7M that might need Legislation, (likely much more)
* that is part of a Pay TV platform with no track record
* Real Digital no visible way of staying in business other than selling set-box ,
* that's encrypted
* proprietary set box from one supplier
* FTV card easily used outside Ireland, no security as demanded by HD Rights (note no RTE plans for HD on Sky)

Alternatively Soarsat
* Only €1.5M, cheaper than adding fill in DTT masts
* Not launched yet, might fail, wait for next launch
* No intermediaries, only lease transponder space
* Free to air. No encryption, no card
* DVB-S2 HD. Any Freesat HD and many FTA HD sat boxes (with Diseqc may have Freesat also)
* Inherently limited spillover similar to TV mast reception
* Kasat inherently 10x cheaper than Astra/Eurobird (no matter about actual prices offered today)
* Dish much smaller

The Cush

watty wrote: »

It would need legislation.

Why and what legislation would it require?

Saorsat and RTÉ on Sky required no specific legislation. Saorsat with the revised DTT plan received only Ministerial/Department approval and the Broadcasting Act doesn't legislate for Saorsat.

Sam Russell

What I was suggesting was for RTE to sell on some of the spare capacity in the Saorsat transponder for payTV to defray some/all of the costs. Given that 9 of the top 10 channels viewed are FTA, it would have to be premium TV such as sports or movies.

RTE could also add +1 versions of all the channels.

Mmmmmmm........ food for thought.:)

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

What I was suggesting was for RTE to sell on some of the spare capacity in the Saorsat transponder for payTV to defray some/all of the costs. Given that 9 of the top 10 channels viewed are FTA, it would have to be premium TV such as sports or movies.

Don't think they would own the transponder simply leasing the capacity they require. Transponder capacity could also provide broadband services. This is what Conor Hayes said in July.

The combined offering will also encourage the possibility of bundling free-to-air public service television and broadband services.

...
People are offering satellite services over broadband. If one has a broadband service over satellite, one is capable of offering telephony or voice over IP, VoIP. If we are up there in the clear, some bright spark might offer people broadband, telephony and Irish channels - RTE, TG4, TV3 and so on - without their needing to spend much money.

watty

The Cush wrote: »

Why and what legislation would it require?

Saorsat and RTÉ on Sky required no specific legislation. Saorsat with the revised DTT plan received only Ministerial/Department approval and the Broadcasting Act doesn't legislate for Saorsat.

Saorsat is FTA. So only needed approval. (which it now has).
Sky is not officially a replacement (technically) for Terrestrial reception.

My understanding is any Satellite service using encryption as part of RTE NL's service (to fill in missing DTT) would need legislation. RTE did look at FTV back in the earliest days of Sky digital and decided it was so expensive not worth worrying about other issues. Anyhow, FTV sat as official part of DTT rollout coverage would be a different scenario.

I know in practice there is not full analogue coverage (esp TG4 and TV3 deliberately only 80% instead of the same as TG4), Sky isn't officially providing coverage. As far as RTE are concerned Sky is payTV, just "wireless" Multichannel Cable. I may even have that in writing somewhere from 1999.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

My understanding is any Satellite service using encryption as part of RTE NL's service (to fill in missing DTT) would need legislation.

I don't think any specific legislation is required. The AVMS and Cable & Satellite Directives and their implementation in Irish legislation provides all the necessary requirements for encrypted and FTA satellite broadcasting in Ireland and throughout Europe.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

What I was suggesting was for RTE to sell on some of the spare capacity in the Saorsat transponder for payTV to defray some/all of the costs. Given that 9 of the top 10 channels viewed are FTA, it would have to be premium TV such as sports or movies.

RTE could also add +1 versions of all the channels.

Mmmmmmm........ food for thought.:)

no. There will be no "spare" capacity. That's outside RTE NL's remit. They will have a pair of "virtual" transponders (Astrium, Viasat and Eutelsat very coy about the actual hardware inside that 80 to 84 spot monster) matching exactly the Saorview content.

Of course ANYONE can rent space of Eutelsat/Viasat and run a service. But for maybe 12,000 to 90,000 customers only? Of course we don't know how many people with Freesat/FTA will add Saorsat even though they can get DTT (Digital via Aerial, Saorview).

My estimation is that on 28E there are

• About 430,000 to 480,000 Active sky customers with unknown number of additional non-sub receivers.
• Maybe 10,000 to 70,000 FTA/Sat4free/expired Sub Sky boxes/Freesat boxes

Of course NONE of these boxes will work for RealDigital. Their plan is a box with built in CAM (embedded card reader/Conditional Access System CAS decoder).

But would you launch a service where the customer swaps the box on some of existing 500,000 dishes (with maybe 40k Sky churn) or to a new system adding about 5K to 20K customers a year? Most people getting Saorsat may get Freesat 28E also.

Real Digital's ploy as I understand it is to aim for Sky's 10% Churn. That could be over 40,000 customers a year. Saorsat could take 2 or 3 years to reach that.

Saorsat is only viable as DTT fill in. It's dead in the water as a Pay Platform unless there ever was a viable Pay TV on DTT.

Any Pay TV on Satellite has to be on 28E, and compete with Freesat, Sky and UPC.

People with no DTT will likely get subsidised install of Saorsat and can easily add Freesat + Freesat HD to the same setbox as used for Saorsat for little extra cost. Especially if they already have 28E.

watty

The Cush wrote: »

I don't think any specific legislation is required. The AVMS and Cable & Satellite Directives and their implementation in Irish legislation provides all the necessary requirements for encrypted and FTA satellite broadcasting in Ireland and throughout Europe.

Encrypted for pay TV or Foreign TV or FTA Irish TV in a Pay Package. Yes.

But Encrypted as sole official method for FTA PSB reception? You'd want to check before spending your money on that.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

But Encrypted as sole official method for FTA PSB reception? You'd want to check before spending your money on that.

Satellite encrypted services whether "FTA" PSB or commercial, same regs apply. Can you link me to something that proves otherwise?

watty

No, I can't.
You could be right and that there is no issue. Even if some pesky paragraph needed changed I'm sure it could be done.

Maybe RTE NL have Real Digital as a Plan B. I'd be sceptical.

If I was RTE

• I'd want to know what happens to the alleged free encryption (not free carriage or boxes or cards or call centre) if Real Digital vanish. Also what Real Digital's model is for paying Conax or whoever for the encryption.
• I'd want to see this Real Digital up an running.
• I'd want a 2nd source for the boxes. But there won't be because Fortec is a partner (backer) of Real Digital and the aim is to ship Fortec boxes.

In any case €1.5M is a bit expensive for Ka-Sat (but we don't really know what they are getting, though it's FTA) and €7M sounds too cheap for FTV card system on Eurobird 28.5E when all costs considered (which is MUCH poorer signal in West of Ireland where it's needed than Astra 2D which has virtually all of Freesat).

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Maybe RTE NL have Real Digital as a Plan B. I'd be sceptical.

I think if I were RTÉ I would be happy with the existing arrangement with Sky and together with Saorsat why bother with the additional costs and planning associated with an unproven Real Digital option.

watty

Could it be that finding only Maplin seriously interested in selling the boxes in UK, but various distributers interested here that Real Digital has switched Target from a mainly UK launch to an Irish Launch and needs RTE FTV to be viable to sell it's pay channels?

Certainly I can see RTE letting Real Digital have RTE Content on same basis as Sky, i.e. Real Digital pay for the carriage, not RTE.

Card control is the question. How well (from RTE's point of view) would "Irish" cards be kept out of UK?

NDS Cards work well to get Sky paid. They have been a total failure for UK FTV in limiting geographic usage.

Tony

watty wrote: »

Card control is the question. How well (from RTE's point of view) would "Irish" cards be kept out of UK?

Why would RTE care? All they have to do is take reasonable steps just like sky do. Sky are well aware of oveseas use and simply pay lip service to the "problem"

STB

watty wrote: »

"TheFuture" claims RealDigital will not offer separate CAM "for security reason" but only box (Fortec?) with embedded card reader (which I call an embedded CAM or SoftCAM depending on how it's done).

Who and what are realdigital ? Is this the crowd that implemented Myth TVs hack into the Fortec passions about a year or 2 back and then decided that they would provide their own epg service ?

Why would RTE be in anyway interested ? Sky=carriage and no overheads. Then SaorSat and DTT.

DVB CI+ IS very safe and will become the norm in all new TVs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CI%2B

I wonder how many people would object if some of the transponder space on 9E was used for Pay TV. Certainly Sky would go ape if they were forced to sell without control in packages and proprietry hardware! It would be a nice addition to a combo box .......

rlogue

Overseas use of Sky for Irish viewing wouldn't be so much of a problem if RTE provided a legal option for watching live Irish TV by satelite.

I know I would be prepared to pay the equivalent of the Irish TV licence in the same way as the Swiss and Dutch offer their TV to their expats. It certainly would still be cheaper than paying a Sky sub.

watty

STB wrote: »

Who and what are realdigital ?

http://www.realdigitaltv.com/

- Information TV
- Fortec Star
- Rapture

Guess what... they want to sell box with, propriety EPG for their viewing card
They won't sell or allow 3rd part cam.

I'd guess "TheFuture" has a vested interest?
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/loguey/is-saorsat-innovation-or-blocking#comments

rlogue

watty wrote: »

http://www.realdigitaltv.com/

- Information TV
- Fortec Star
- Rapture

Guess what... they want to sell box with, propriety EPG for their viewing card
They won't sell or allow 3rd part cam.

Whoa, what a bunch of evil geniuses!!

watty

rlogue wrote: »

Overseas use of Sky for Irish viewing wouldn't be so much of a problem if RTE provided a legal option for watching live Irish TV by satelite.

I know I would be prepared to pay the equivalent of the Irish TV licence in the same way as the Swiss and Dutch offer their TV to their expats. It certainly would still be cheaper than paying a Sky sub.

Probably we all agree

and all agree it's ten years behind the Government funding it.

While it's a major issue, it's a separate one to the Digital Rollout.