RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Apogee

watty wrote: »

C-band is not really meant for DTH. It's primarily Head ends.

No it isn't.

Apogee

RogerThis wrote: »

Say the satellite gets launched this November, and the RTE satellite transmitter is all up and running by February.
How long will it take before they have a SaorSat certified satellite receiver, dish and lnb chosen? It will take 6 months at least?

Chances are there may never be a "Saorsat receiver" - just FTA receivers.

Eutelsat Satellite To Bridge Broadband Digital Divide

The KA-SAT satellite is being developed for Eutelsat to provide faster broadband services to the digitally deprived
Adrian Mars August 4, 2010 1 Comment

KA-SAT – the world’s most advanced multi-spot satellite to date – is due to launch from Kazakhstan towards the end of November this year, aboard a Russian Proton rocket. eWEEK Europe UK travelled to Toulouse to see the final assembly stages of KA-SAT, which promises to go some way to solving Europe’s [1] broadband connectivity problems.

Across Europe, roughly 10 percent of Internet subscribers can either not gain access to a DSL service at all, or are only able to achieve speeds of 1Mbps or less – too slow for decent on-demand quality video. One suggestion for overcoming this problem is to [2] deliver broadband services from space, to help plug the holes in Europe’s Internet provision. However, limitations of bandwidth and broadcast capacity have proved a major stumbling block for engineers in the past.
“DSL-comparable” broadband

[3] The KA-SAT satellite, commissioned by Eutelsat and built by EADS Astrium, has 82 independent beams which cover the UK and Europe with a mosaic of footprints. It is capable of a maximum of 40Mbps downstream and 20Mbps up, and is said to be able to serve Europe with a “DSL-comparable” [4] broadband service, known as [5] Tooway.

KA-SAT is only the second High Throughput broadband Satellite (HTS) in the world. The first – WildBlue, majority owned by ViaSat – serves US customers to very similar specifications. KA-SAT is built on ViaSat’s Surfbeam 2 protocol, and so uses ViaSat dishes, modems, provisioning and management equipment on the ground. However, KA-SAT is a new design, based on EADS Astrium’s existing ‘Eurostar E300s’ platform. Astrium claims this is the most complex satellite the company has ever built.

We got a look at the satellite in its clean room near Toulouse, just before the dishes and solar cells were added. When bolted on, they’ll supply 11kW of power and give the 5.8 tonne (at launch) satellite a ‘wingspan’ of 39 metres. Expressed in standard International satellite size units, without solar panels, it’s about the size of a large minibus.

The satellite’s basic job is to receive radio signals, amplify them and beam them back to the ground. Signals bounce off the four dishes into one of 82 fixed microwave horns, where they travel down an impressively complex mass of “waveguides” – hollow metal tubes that are to microwaves as glass fibres are to light.

[6] KA-SAT’s chemical thruster (the large round object, behind the ring bolted onto the white construction trolley) burns three quarters of the 2.5 tonnes of fuel – Monomethylhydrazine (MMH) plus Nitrous Oxide (N2O) oxidiser – in order to reach geostationary orbit. Four electrically powered ion drive thrusters, (two can be seen sticking out on the right), expel small amounts of xenon plasma travelling extremely fast. They keep the satellite in the correct spot. There’s enough fuel on-board to do so for 16 years, with the remaining MMH/N2O also acting as backup.
Sharing bandwidth

Each of KA-SAT’s 82 beams delivers 250MHz of bandwidth. By reducing the spot size, each of the four frequencies can be re-used 20 times, expanding capacity to a total of 70GB/s of bandwidth, (or 850Mb/s per spot). Each spot supports around 2,500 users at a contention ratio of roughly 300:1 – i.e. every user’s 10Mb of bandwidth is shared with 300 others. For comparison, DSL’s typical contention ratio ranges from business packages at 20:1 to consumers at 50:1.

[7] To bring the ratio closer to 30:1, users will be subject to a rolling one hour limit, in which they can download a maximum of 400MB, rather than the roughly 4GB per hour that a 10Mbps service could deliver. Once that 400MB limit is reached, speed drops to 1Mbps until the last hour’s use total drops below the 400MB threshold. There is also a monthly limit that, once reached, causes speeds to drop to a mere 128kbps until the end of the month, unless the user pays for additional 1GB or 2GB “tokens”.

In order to “commercially test the service and start playing with the tools”, Eutelsat has operated Tooway since January 2008, using four rented transponders on an alternative satellite – HotBird 6. The test service offers speeds of 3.6Mbps down and 512kbps up, and analysts estimate that it has around 25,000 subscribers. However, Eutelsat admits that the test has been operating at a loss.
Triple play service

When Tooway over KA-SAT launches in the second quarter of 2011, the service will initially offer speeds of 10Mbps down and 2Mbps up. Eutelsat is planning a “full” triple play service, including broadband phone and TV. The phone service will operate via VoIP but, with the satellite adding 600ms of latency (mostly due to the time taken for signals to travel to the satellite and back at the speed of light), expect a [8] noticeable delay. Meanwhile, the small size of individual spots provides an interesting opportunity for local TV operators, who will be able to offer their own very localised broadcast and on-demand TV and radio services via IP.

Tooway contracts will range from €30 (£25) – for around 10GB per month – up to €100 for an “almost” all-you-can-eat package. Users will also have to pay a one-off fee of €350 for the self installable modem and dish. Final prices will depend on local operators and equipment subsidies.

[9] It is thought that a single KA-SAT satellite will be able to serve, at maximum, around 5 percent of the section of the market that currently struggles to get DSL. EADS Astrium can build a second identical satellite in two years – substantially faster than the three years it took to design and build the first.

The UK has three spots, with two additional spots for Ireland. Existing TV from existing traditional broadcast satellites can also be incorporated by putting additional components on the user’s dish. Other markets being eyed-up by Eutelsat include mobile terminals, marine, electronic news gathering and mobile phone back-haul.

Although Eutelsat’s description of “DSL Comparable” is rather on the generous side when you consider the effects of 600ms of latency and the rolling download limit, where DSL is marginal or non-existent, KA-SAT is likely to be in demand.

http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/eutelsat-satellite-to-combat-broadband-digital-divide-8780

STB

RogerThis wrote: »

Say the satellite gets launched this November, and the RTE satellite transmitter is all up and running by February.
How long will it take before they have a SaorSat certified satellite receiver, dish and lnb chosen? It will take 6 months at least?

Oh i'd say if all things go to plan with Eutel, they'd be testing January with the uplink.


DVBS2 MPEG4 H264 sat receivers have been the wild a long time you know. They simply wont be certifying them I'd imagine. I am sure the industry briefing will kick in very early 2011. Then a public awareness campaign. I am sure they have a plan RogerThis.

watty

Plenty of DVB-S2 MPEG4 HD setboxes with MHEG5 exist.

Also plenty of Terrestrial boxes that in theory meet Saorview/Nordig. (DVB-t or DVB-t2, H.264, HD, HDMI, Downsampling on SCART and MHEG5).

It won't be a big deal by mid 2011 when "full" launch occurs.

Sound familiar?

Altech UEC, the Durban based developer of digital set-top boxes (STBs) and interactive software solutions announced today through its Australian office that they have been appointed to supply High Definition (HD) satellite STBs for the initial phase of the Australian Viewer Access Satellite Television, or VAST service. VAST is a $200 million government-funded service that launched in July 2010 and is aimed at providing HD satellite television coverage for consumers that fall outside the digital terrestrial broadcast footprint.
...
The Altech UEC VAST certified STB model DSD4121 has been designed specifically for this application and draws on the latest DVB-S2, MPEG4 HD hardware and MHEG5 middleware technology. The project was delivered under extremely aggressive timescales in order to meet the target date of 1st July 2010 for the first regional analogue switch off.

via http://www.digitaltvnews.net/content/?p=15357

Connect those to a 44cm dish with a Ka LNBF and it will likely work 100%.

EADS Astrium can build a second identical satellite in two years – substantially faster than the three years it took to design and build the first.

RTE's Plan B if Kasat launch fails is to only turn off Analogue for the remaining folk in 2013 when the replacement attempt would occur?

Sam Russell

This may be a stupid question, but I will ask it anyway.

Given that only a single mux, or at most two, is being used, could an LNB be designed that would down-convert the Saorsat signal to be within the tuning range of a standard iDTV so that no set top box would be required? Many TVs can output a DC voltage that could power a mast-head amp, which could be used by the LNB.

I know that for this to work, the signal would have to be a DTT mux image, or multiple mux images, but is it feasable?

Mr McBoatface

Sam Russell wrote: »

This may be a stupid question, but I will ask it anyway.

Given that only a single mux, or at most two, is being used, could an LNB be designed that would down-convert the Saorsat signal to be within the tuning range of a standard iDTV so that no set top box would be required? Many TVs can output a DC voltage that could power a mast-head amp, which could be used by the LNB.

I know that for this to work, the signal would have to be a DTT mux image, or multiple mux images, but is it feasable?

Excellent Idea Sam ... if not directly from the LNB even a signal converter box or distribution system of some sort with an input from the LNB and output to the IDTV.

Tony

I think Watty mentioned earlier in the thread that its not possible to do this i think beacuse of the modulation system used byt the satellite transponder.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

This may be a stupid question, but I will ask it anyway.

Given that only a single mux, or at most two, is being used, could an LNB be designed that would down-convert the Saorsat signal to be within the tuning range of a standard iDTV so that no set top box would be required? Many TVs can output a DC voltage that could power a mast-head amp, which could be used by the LNB.

I know that for this to work, the signal would have to be a DTT mux image, or multiple mux images, but is it feasable?

DTT and Satellite use a different kind of Modulation. They HAVE to.

newer satellites don't use DVB-s but DVB-s2. Different tuner again.

So even if the data is identical (which is likely) and even if the frequency is the same you need a different tuner, so it won't work.

There ARE IDTV for satellite, that do DVB-S2, HD and MPEG4.
Common types of Tuner in Europe

• Analogue VSB AM (Analogue Terrestrial, Analogue MMDS & Analogue Cable)
• Analogue FM (Analogue Microwave Links and Analogue Satellite and Video Senders).
• DVB-T (DTT, Terrestrial Digital, ex Chorus Digital MMDS)
• DVB-T2 (DTT, Terrestrial Digital, receives DVB-T also)
• DVB-C (Digital Cable and ex NTL Digital MMDS)
• DVB-C2 (Digital Cable, receives DVB-C also)
• DVB-S (Older Digital Satellite)
• DVB-S2 (all newer satellites and some transponders on older Satellites, receives DVB-S also)

An IDTV can have one kind of DVB or a mix.

Summary:
Only an IDTV with DVB-S2, H.264 MPEG4 and HD is going to work direct with a Ka Band or Ku Band LNB.

While it's in theory possible to modulate satellite carrier with DVB-T, the power needed would be very high and it would need a huge receiving dish (2m maybe). Not a viable solution.

Sam Russell

Thanks, Watty. You learn something new every day.:)

watty

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Excellent Idea Sam ... if not directly from the LNB even a signal converter box or distribution system of some sort with an input from the LNB and output to the IDTV.

Such a Signal conversion costs about €5,000
It's a Satellite tuner with ASI digital output (copy of digital stream for entire transponder) and a DVB-T Modulator with and ASI input. It's what a Hotel with no DTT could use, or RTE for a really cheap low power "infill" DTT for twenty houses.

19" x 6" x 14" box approx. Coax in from Ka LNBF and Coax out to a TV transmitter or TV distribution system. The gear is available "off the shelf". Mounts in 19" rack or case.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Such a Signal conversion costs about €5,000
It's a Satellite tuner with ASI digital output (copy of digital stream for entire transponder) and a DVB-T Modulator with and ASI input. It's what a Hotel with no DTT could use, or RTE for a really cheap low power "infill" DTT for twenty houses.

19" x 6" x 14" box approx. Coax in from Ka LNBF and Coax out to a TV transmitter or TV distribution system. The gear is available "off the shelf". Mounts in 19" rack or case.

Would you need one for each mux?

watty

Yes per mux, not per channel. One does all the channels in a Mux

A regular single BNC coax with ASI on it can carry 270Mbs of MPEG-TS. There is a higher speed version that does 1.45Gbps. One entire DTT mux with ALL channels is maybe less than 30Mbps.

It's always 270Mbps. The serial data is stuffed with dummy bits for lower bit rates.

sebmelm

I guess this all means that with those spot beams, this service will not be available on mainland Europe (eg. Brussels) ... whether its free or not...?

Pfffffffffffffffffft...!

Mr McBoatface

sebmelm wrote: »

I guess this all means that with those spot beams, this service will not be available on mainland Europe (eg. Brussels) ... whether its free or not...?

Pfffffffffffffffffft...!

That is the hole point of the narrow spot beam, if it's not viewable outside of Ireland(albeit with a little UK overspill) RTE do not have to pay extra royalties for their TV programs.

Realistically RTE could not go FTA on satellite any other way.

sebmelm

.Thanks Joe...
Hmmmmmmmmmm... does that mean that the current Sky offering of RTE television may disappear..?

watty

Sky pay for RTE on Sky, and you only get it with a Sky card, and not in Mainland UK sub.

RTE say RTE content on Sky is unaffected by Saorview\Soarsat

Gerry Wicklow

$ky are currently making a fortune from poor saps who think theirs is the only way to get a decent picture in certain parts of Ireland and are unlikely to drop that in a hurry.:(

lgs 4

watty wrote: »

Sky pay for RTE on Sky, and you only get it with a Sky card, and not in Mainland UK sub.

RTE say RTE content on Sky is unaffected by Saorview\Soarsat

As far as i know its cost RTE and other 8,000,000 a year for cards and encryption ,as for louis walsh closing down rte talking through ass again

STB

The cost to RTE is zero or close to. EPG, SES space, encryption, all sky. RTE probably pay or the uplink!

$ky need RTE more than RTE need $ky in order to keep their subscriber base in Ireland.


Given the proprietry nature of their boxes and encryption, its more likely that $ky absorb the small cost in order to sell their sports and movie packages. Lets face it for the prices they are charging its more liley that the subscriber is paying a fair amount of the cost.

NDS itself is 49% owned by ...... $ky

The cost to the BBC was 85million over 5 years, thats why they told them what to do with themselves.

There are trade offs all the time. CH4HD's transmission costs, epg and encryption all paid for by $ky.
.

watty

lgs 4 wrote: »

As far as i know its cost RTE and other 8,000,000 a year for cards and encryption ,as for louis walsh closing down rte talking through ass again

It would be more like €20M for all the Saorview content on 28E/Sky. If there was a FTV scheme for Ireland. There isn't. RTE doesn't pay 1c to Sky. Sky at most costs them the uplink (I wonder how much of that was recycled from Tara?). Sky might even be paying the small running costs of uplink!

It's true that RTE could achieve more with what revenue they have and may have too much Bureaucracy, too many Managers and too many "Contract" Staff in front of camera or Microphone paid too much. But Louis Walsh would throw out baby with bath water. There are ills. But I'd not give him column inches to air his views. His stuff is hardly a good example.

€1.5M for Kasat is a bargain even if RTE is being overcharged!

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

It's true that RTE could achieve more with what revenue they have and may have too much Bureaucracy, too many Managers and too many "Contract" Staff in front of camera or Microphone paid too much. But Louis Walsh would throw out baby with bath water. There are ills. But I'd not give him column inches to air his views. His stuff is hardly a good example.

€1.5M for Kasat is a bargain even if RTE is being overcharged!

RTE have done a marvellous job over the last 50 years, given the high level of political interference (inc Ray Burke) and general lack of support from the Dept of Finance since inception. They are at least able to produce good drama, not so hot on comedy, and very good on news and current affairs. Unfortunately they have had to dabble too much on the commercial side over the years and have a blurred demarcation between public service and commerce.

They have been a massive contributor to Irish culture and to Irish life in general. You cannot say that about TV3, who do not even bother broadcasting to 10% of the population, and have yet to cough up anything for DTT.

Louis Walsh has made a terrific contribution to Irish life with boy-bands, JEDWARD and X-Factor, I'm sure. Now he has dyed his hair blonde.

watty

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have been a massive contributor to Irish culture and to Irish life in general. You cannot say that about TV3, who do not even bother broadcasting to 10% 20% of the population, and have yet to cough up anything for DTT.

Louis Walsh has made a terrific contribution to Irish life with boy-bands, JEDWARD and X-Factor, I'm sure. Now he has dyed his hair blonde.

Yes. Compared to US stations, or Italian TV, RTE are good. If BBC continues attempts to ape ITV and ITV continues trying to race to the bottom to be like a US station, then RTE will be better than UK TV rather than living in the shadow of it. RTE need to ignore UK TV and have more confidence to do their own thing.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

Yes. Compared to US stations, or Italian TV, RTE are good. If BBC continues attempts to ape ITV and ITV continues trying to race to the bottom to be like a US station, then RTE will be better than UK TV rather than living in the shadow of it. RTE need to ignore UK TV and have more confidence to do their own thing.

Could not agree with you more. RTE were the leaders in live TV, but then bought a few autocues and lost their skills. Live broadcasters do not muff their speach with err, err, and stim - stumb - stumbles, and keep going, not a skill you get developed with autocues.

Cantona's Collars

Tv3 are simply ITV lite-we are now having X-Factor foisted upon us again.As much as I criticise RTE at least they try and like it or not do have a huge influence on the country.Just have a look at the forums on Digital Spy to see how many people bemoan the dumbing down of television in the UK and we are following suit.No point setting up a digital service if 90% of the content is just filler.

warlikedave

at least 3e will have a few decent comedy and sifi shows if the rights arent affect if they go on DTT and SaorSat after being on sky for the last two years.

rte sports lineup is decent this year so im well happy with it and the DTT trials and for Sat in the future..altho I dont like the home grown drama some of the rte home grown comedy is decent as well....:D

davocesque

no idea what any of this tech shtuff means, can someone kindly tell me, if i can now watch rte on sky outside ireland, as i live in london and im actually missing rte!! cheers

watty

No, this Service can't be received anywhere England, most of Wales and most of Scotland at all.

Only with an Irish Subscription to Sky, as is it has been for some years (N.I. Postcode UK sub will Give RTE/TG4 but no TV3 and possibly some programs blanked). The proposed Satellite service is only an alternative to Aerial based reception, in Ireland as it's a small spot beam illuminating only Ireland. Otherwise RTE couldn't use the service at all.

STB

Following on from bytes post about the Walker box has anyone been on Walkers site lately. They claim that :

"Walker Technology Products Ltd are delighted to annouce that our products have been approved by RTÉ to compliment the New Saorview service which we will come into effect in the near future. Lots of New Services, Menus and Interactivity..".
Source: http://www.walker.ie/pages/saorview.html

Have they ?

Interestingly the set top box is the one that is cuurently on sale in power city. Does that even have MHEG5. I couldnt see it in the spec or the manual for the box.

Their range of products is confusing Integrated Satellite Tuner for Irish TV ??? What the hell does that mean. That it has a dvb-s2 tuner for 9e ?

Brochure: http://new.digiflip.ie/?userpath=00000492/00014011/00054264/

Hmmmm

watty

Well, if it has DVB-S2 and HD, it will work on 9E.

Their flash brochure is savage. you should do Alt PrtScn, crop and save then up load here

(see?)

They have this logo on announcement page


It's likely that who ever is supplying the boxes (Vestel?) has done MHEG5 install. It wouldn't surprise me though if the Power City boxes don't have it.

I thought there was an NDA in force till launch about getting Saorview certification? Really this all tells us nothing more than in the magazine scanned by Byte last week.

The horrid 8 page Animated brochure on DTT on their announcement page is this
http://rtenl.ie/downloads/Receiving%20DTT%20(May%2010).pdf
with Walker branding stuck on it

Direct Links to two HD ready Walker (Vestel?) TVs that allege Satellite + Irish TV
* HD READY
* 2 x HDMI
* INTEGRATED SATELLITE RECEIVER
FOR IRISH TV
* SCART CONNECTION
* PIANO BLACK FINISH
* VESA WALL MOUNTABLE
* 1000 PAGE TEXT
* PC VGA INPUT
* HEADPHONE SOCKET
http://www.walker.ie/products/WP32SATHD.html
http://www.walker.ie/products/WP42SATHD.html

They appear to be inferior 1366x768 WXGA panels, as they are "HD Ready" and have PC VGA as well as SCART and HDMI.

byte

I've access to the same boxes sold in Power City.

I'm not sure if there's MHEG5 on the current model - it's not listed on the specs.

There maybe a new model, that looks physically identical to their existing one, but with the MHEG5 middleware.

Is there still an RTE EPG on air? I could try test one of the Walker boxes.